I did this with side drafts about twenty five years ago, and I still wish I hadn't.
I tried this back in the late 70's and really wish I hadn't.
For all of the efforts necessary it is important to point out that they definitely do work, and work well.
This video shows a 351C, iron heads and all on the dyno. The fuel mist rises out of the velocity stacks as the rpms rise.
This is what we are talking about when we say "fuel reversion". You can also see why the air filters get soaked with fuel. Usually it is a paper based filter that goes up in flame...usually.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRdwWgSGqvc
(Unfortunately the video was removed. Too bad).
It showed 550hp on the dyno. 500 ft-lbs of torque. Good aluminum heads will put another 30hp on top of that.
The simple fact is that Webers aren't for everyone. In fact they aren't for most.
It is very difficult to explain them to anyone. Sometimes I think the only explanation of what they are like is to experience them?
I personally have never tried the DCOE sidedrafts. Don't talk about them. You will make me want a set.
This video shows a 351C, iron heads and all on the dyno. The fuel mist rises out of the velocity stacks as the rpms rise.
This is what we are talking about when we say "fuel reversion". You can also see why the air filters get soaked with fuel. Usually it is a paper based filter that goes up in flame...usually.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRdwWgSGqvc
(Unfortunately the video was removed. Too bad).
It showed 550hp on the dyno. 500 ft-lbs of torque. Good aluminum heads will put another 30hp on top of that.
The simple fact is that Webers aren't for everyone. In fact they aren't for most.
It is very difficult to explain them to anyone. Sometimes I think the only explanation of what they are like is to experience them?
I personally have never tried the DCOE sidedrafts. Don't talk about them. You will make me want a set.
PD I got the recoil spring to work. Real pleased with the tension. Here is a vid link:
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars2/p...sam/web/DSC_0059.AVI
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars2/p...sam/web/DSC_0059.AVI
Interesting. What kind of longevity do you think it will have?
I don't know. I don't have any reason to believe i will have problems with it. It took a beer and a half a movie to get the spring set.
If you look at the small loop near the center, I locked it down with a 2-56 screw threaded in the aluminum. It is kind of small for what it does but it pins it next to the bolt and seems stout in place.
I first set the threaded bolt through the pulley to engage the outer loop but it flexed and came around the bolt. I re-bent the big loop but tapped and put in a 4-40 bolt next to the bolt in the pulley which goes in the small hole and holds it in place which works pretty well.
I first released the spring when it was coiled as was packaged but was too loose. I tightened it more (which took me several attempts and a beer). With it more tightly would it behaved and stayed in place.
At that point it is contained and works great. As to what the failure point would be, if the tabs are secured well, and I think they are, I should be good.
I don't want to say it's good with little or no testing. I hate it when people do dumb things then say "it worked for me". It's kind of like playing Russian roulette and saying It worked out ok for me; it's just a dumb thing people say.
However, it seems to be solid.
If you look at the small loop near the center, I locked it down with a 2-56 screw threaded in the aluminum. It is kind of small for what it does but it pins it next to the bolt and seems stout in place.
I first set the threaded bolt through the pulley to engage the outer loop but it flexed and came around the bolt. I re-bent the big loop but tapped and put in a 4-40 bolt next to the bolt in the pulley which goes in the small hole and holds it in place which works pretty well.
I first released the spring when it was coiled as was packaged but was too loose. I tightened it more (which took me several attempts and a beer). With it more tightly would it behaved and stayed in place.
At that point it is contained and works great. As to what the failure point would be, if the tabs are secured well, and I think they are, I should be good.
I don't want to say it's good with little or no testing. I hate it when people do dumb things then say "it worked for me". It's kind of like playing Russian roulette and saying It worked out ok for me; it's just a dumb thing people say.
However, it seems to be solid.
PD,
How long is the Pantera throttle cable generally? Do you have a good source for throttle cables? I have used a throttle cable from the hot rod market for the MG but I never liked it. Too thin and cheap gave a lousy feel. I put in a larger housing and heavier cable and made a much better throttle cable set up for the MG. Just wondering who would source that kind of stuff.
How long is the Pantera throttle cable generally? Do you have a good source for throttle cables? I have used a throttle cable from the hot rod market for the MG but I never liked it. Too thin and cheap gave a lousy feel. I put in a larger housing and heavier cable and made a much better throttle cable set up for the MG. Just wondering who would source that kind of stuff.
Don't know how long it is. I call Hall. They call Wilkinson. I get a Pantera throttle cable. 
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Don't know how long it is. I call Hall. They call Wilkinson. I get a Pantera throttle cable.
Lot of help you are!
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
You know I am just kidding.
I figured you were talking to my wife? That sounds like her?
Lol
Here's the view from the top with them on the car.
Since this pic was taken, I have gone to an electronic fuel pressure gauge and the sender takes the place of the gauge.
The original dip stick tube was put back in the car and the air filters were removed in favor of 5" screened open velocity stacks.
I wanted to run the filters but it just wasn't doable.
Since this pic was taken, I have gone to an electronic fuel pressure gauge and the sender takes the place of the gauge.
The original dip stick tube was put back in the car and the air filters were removed in favor of 5" screened open velocity stacks.
I wanted to run the filters but it just wasn't doable.
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very nice doug, i'm trying to tell from the pictures, is that a vacuum log sitting below the gauge that you have each runner tapped and plumbed to, helping strengthen and cleanup vaccuum signal? I'm trying to figure out the best method for doing this, whether to use a log or some kind of tank that sits in the valley which I can attach the brake booster line to as well as plumb a remote idle air motor to for EFI. Kinsler just said to tune the car in alpha-n which uses a static fuel map whereas I would prefer to run it in speed density so that the computer could adjust to weather conditions on the fly.
Yes. Good eyes. Here's a picture of it while I was working on it.
It's actually a Mr.Gasket fuel log that I had bought that I finally found use for.
The brake booster is the -10 you see being taken from the t fitting in the middle.
The vacuum ports are plumbed in series to each side of the log.
I have PCV plumbed to either end of the log. You only see one here in this picture.
Vacuum gauge and vacuum advance are also plumbed in which you can see going to the 90 degree shinny brass fittings in the top view on the car. I like that better. This picture shows an earlier thought on them. That I changed.
The vacuum tubing is 1/4" od stainless 304, .035 wall. It's stiff. It supports the vacuum manifold fine and you are not going to bend or dent it easily on the car so where those tubes suspend the vacuum manifold are permanent (unless I rebend them in the vise) and are not going to vibrate around even under race conditions.
You can see the flexibility it gives you as far as what you want to connect to it and where. I've already varied the connections to it. I dropped the engine supplied PCV connection since the engine doesn't produce enough volume of vacuum, went to a CompCams vacuum pump, relocated an adjustable PCV valve to the rear of the left valve cover, but it still gives you an easy to reach connection to any other vacuum accessories like a vacuum gauge connection, etc. Just cap that -10 t-fitting being used as a coupling.
John Haas was just working on a similar set up on the blue Quella FI car and his solution was a little different for the FI MAP sensor which Quella had never installed.
That car was running with just a throttle position sensor. No Map. No oxygen sensor even.
Strictly as you mentioned, a Kinsler alpha-n sceme and as a result was running like ka-ka!
His solution takes up the entire valley.
I saw the space between the heat shield and the carbs as dead space and thought if I located the vacuum manifold in it that would maximize the available areas and make them more accessible to service and access?
The fuel log was almost the perfect length to work with.
Both valve covers now have PCV running to it. I thought it could breath through the dip stick tube? Nope. Wrong.
Webers in particular are rough on the oil rings.
Using a PCV system is definitely going to help them.
I would think an IR FI would be kinder but the sludge that you see accumulating internally is abrasive. The less you have, the better off the engine will be. It should have a functioning pcv also in my opinion.
Accessibility to me is very important. There isn't a lot of room to work with on an IR set up and I have big hands and yes a little... brain. Thought I was going to say something else huh?
This as you see it is a work in progress. I have found that solutions to one issue sometimes create another that was unforeseen.
This I think is the basic layout for me though but consider it a work in progress?
I also found, but didn't mention previously, that the Pantera throttle cable needs to be altered to work with the center tower pivot linkage.
You need to disassemble the carb end of it and remove the internal 7/16" rigid tube so that it is flexible and will curve to the carbs.
Also, stock the total travel is only 1-3/8". You need to increase that to 1-3/4" total so that the carbs will fully open. Disassembling the cable will give you that ability.
I post these details because I just don't remember anyone doing that before? No one has ever talked about with these set ups.I find that many of these answers are what others were struggling with and couldn't find answers or solutions anywhere that anyone would talk about?
Even Quella went to a different throttle cable that pulls from the drivers side. That's not necessary and just takes up more room that isn't available if you are going to service this engine.
I found that using the stock cable, modifying it and making the final adjustments on the throttle pedal inside the car were better solutions. It also put the pedal where it felt normal to my foot and gives me a very light pedal pressure like a current fuel injected car throttle would have with an electronic pedal.
Oh. This is not a cheap set up. You can start counting the fittings and total them up. The vacuum manifold set up in parts is around $300.
I just saw that Mr.Gasket fuel log on special on the internet for $14.99 new. I've seen them sell used for $35. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/...-Fuel-Log,44644.html
I like using readily available components as much as possible.
If you ask me, this fuel log is like it's made for this application? It couldn't fit better.
I'm still fighting with myself about when I'm gonna get paid for the labor?
Just my life experiences with this set up. Your mileage may vary!
It's actually a Mr.Gasket fuel log that I had bought that I finally found use for.
The brake booster is the -10 you see being taken from the t fitting in the middle.
The vacuum ports are plumbed in series to each side of the log.
I have PCV plumbed to either end of the log. You only see one here in this picture.
Vacuum gauge and vacuum advance are also plumbed in which you can see going to the 90 degree shinny brass fittings in the top view on the car. I like that better. This picture shows an earlier thought on them. That I changed.
The vacuum tubing is 1/4" od stainless 304, .035 wall. It's stiff. It supports the vacuum manifold fine and you are not going to bend or dent it easily on the car so where those tubes suspend the vacuum manifold are permanent (unless I rebend them in the vise) and are not going to vibrate around even under race conditions.
You can see the flexibility it gives you as far as what you want to connect to it and where. I've already varied the connections to it. I dropped the engine supplied PCV connection since the engine doesn't produce enough volume of vacuum, went to a CompCams vacuum pump, relocated an adjustable PCV valve to the rear of the left valve cover, but it still gives you an easy to reach connection to any other vacuum accessories like a vacuum gauge connection, etc. Just cap that -10 t-fitting being used as a coupling.
John Haas was just working on a similar set up on the blue Quella FI car and his solution was a little different for the FI MAP sensor which Quella had never installed.
That car was running with just a throttle position sensor. No Map. No oxygen sensor even.
Strictly as you mentioned, a Kinsler alpha-n sceme and as a result was running like ka-ka!
His solution takes up the entire valley.
I saw the space between the heat shield and the carbs as dead space and thought if I located the vacuum manifold in it that would maximize the available areas and make them more accessible to service and access?
The fuel log was almost the perfect length to work with.
Both valve covers now have PCV running to it. I thought it could breath through the dip stick tube? Nope. Wrong.
Webers in particular are rough on the oil rings.
Using a PCV system is definitely going to help them.
I would think an IR FI would be kinder but the sludge that you see accumulating internally is abrasive. The less you have, the better off the engine will be. It should have a functioning pcv also in my opinion.
Accessibility to me is very important. There isn't a lot of room to work with on an IR set up and I have big hands and yes a little... brain. Thought I was going to say something else huh?
This as you see it is a work in progress. I have found that solutions to one issue sometimes create another that was unforeseen.
This I think is the basic layout for me though but consider it a work in progress?
I also found, but didn't mention previously, that the Pantera throttle cable needs to be altered to work with the center tower pivot linkage.
You need to disassemble the carb end of it and remove the internal 7/16" rigid tube so that it is flexible and will curve to the carbs.
Also, stock the total travel is only 1-3/8". You need to increase that to 1-3/4" total so that the carbs will fully open. Disassembling the cable will give you that ability.
I post these details because I just don't remember anyone doing that before? No one has ever talked about with these set ups.I find that many of these answers are what others were struggling with and couldn't find answers or solutions anywhere that anyone would talk about?
Even Quella went to a different throttle cable that pulls from the drivers side. That's not necessary and just takes up more room that isn't available if you are going to service this engine.
I found that using the stock cable, modifying it and making the final adjustments on the throttle pedal inside the car were better solutions. It also put the pedal where it felt normal to my foot and gives me a very light pedal pressure like a current fuel injected car throttle would have with an electronic pedal.
Oh. This is not a cheap set up. You can start counting the fittings and total them up. The vacuum manifold set up in parts is around $300.
I just saw that Mr.Gasket fuel log on special on the internet for $14.99 new. I've seen them sell used for $35. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/...-Fuel-Log,44644.html
I like using readily available components as much as possible.
If you ask me, this fuel log is like it's made for this application? It couldn't fit better.
I'm still fighting with myself about when I'm gonna get paid for the labor?
Just my life experiences with this set up. Your mileage may vary!
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side view
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Inglese did it like this. Simpler but still needs the vacuum manifold.
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This is the vacuum block Inglese uses. It isn't optimum for Pantera use.
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Ahaaa, those are my carbs