Ron, I thought it best to start a new topic, rather than tag your question on the end of another, unrelated topic. George
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Please elaborate on the Wieand Aluminum Pump. I didnt notice any difference when putting it on my new motor. Have a picture of this difference ?
Ron,
If you are running a thermostat, the motor MUST have some way to recirculate coolant, bypassing the radiator, when the thermostat is closed (motor is cold).
On some cars, the heater core flows coolant full time. Not so with the Pantera, our heater cores only flow coolant when the valve is open.
The other way to recirc coolant is with a bypass. On the Windsors, that's the little hose with the 90 degree bend between the water pump & intake manifold. The Windsor bypass flows full time, never shuts off, therefore it is intentionally a small passage.
The Cleveland bypass passage is internal to the block, it's the passage below the thermostat that leads to the passage missing in the Weiand water pump. Ford engineers designed the Cleveland coolant system this way because they can recirc more coolant during warm up, this speeds up the warm up time, prevents steam pockets from forming in the cylinder heads and allows the motor to warm up more evenly. It also means if you install the wrong thermostat, the car will have a tendency to over heat under heavy loads, because too much coolant is bypassing the radiator FULL TIME.
Here's the problem with the Weiand water pump on a Cleveland motor. You have a thermostat installed in the block, as normal. You are also running the Weiand water pump that defeats the motors ability to recirc coolant internally. Your heater valve is also closed. In this situation, when the motor is cold & the thermostat is closed, the water pump CANNOT pump coolant, it is pumping against a dead head. This is not a good situation, and poor engineering. This is why you'll never read me recommend the Weiand pump.
The Weiand pump must be used with a Windsor thermostat, AND some method to allow the engine to recirc coolant, or with no thermostat at all.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
If you are running a thermostat, the motor MUST have some way to recirculate coolant, bypassing the radiator, when the thermostat is closed (motor is cold).
On some cars, the heater core flows coolant full time. Not so with the Pantera, our heater cores only flow coolant when the valve is open.
The other way to recirc coolant is with a bypass. On the Windsors, that's the little hose with the 90 degree bend between the water pump & intake manifold. The Windsor bypass flows full time, never shuts off, therefore it is intentionally a small passage.
The Cleveland bypass passage is internal to the block, it's the passage below the thermostat that leads to the passage missing in the Weiand water pump. Ford engineers designed the Cleveland coolant system this way because they can recirc more coolant during warm up, this speeds up the warm up time, prevents steam pockets from forming in the cylinder heads and allows the motor to warm up more evenly. It also means if you install the wrong thermostat, the car will have a tendency to over heat under heavy loads, because too much coolant is bypassing the radiator FULL TIME.
Here's the problem with the Weiand water pump on a Cleveland motor. You have a thermostat installed in the block, as normal. You are also running the Weiand water pump that defeats the motors ability to recirc coolant internally. Your heater valve is also closed. In this situation, when the motor is cold & the thermostat is closed, the water pump CANNOT pump coolant, it is pumping against a dead head. This is not a good situation, and poor engineering. This is why you'll never read me recommend the Weiand pump.
The Weiand pump must be used with a Windsor thermostat, AND some method to allow the engine to recirc coolant, or with no thermostat at all.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
So whta should I do ? send it back to PI ? what is the application for this pump ? 1 step foward and two back. The last thing I want to do is have to start ripping this thing apart after its in the car. Any rcommendation on a high volume water pump.
I am aware several Pantera vendors sell the Weiand pump. I don't understand why. If you do not recirc water during warm up, if no water is flowing into the engine block, the heads WILL develope steam pockets. I do not consider that a desirable thing. If anyone is running the Weiand pump, I suggest they run their heater valve open until the car warms up. That is the most expedient fix until something better can be done.
In the mean time, here's 2 pics of the pump I'll be installing in my Pantera, George
In the mean time, here's 2 pics of the pump I'll be installing in my Pantera, George
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I'm glad this was mentioned I was ready to block off those bypass outlets on the water pump of my windsor. The new windsor top coolant line I bought that mounts to the thermostat area on the block dosen't have a bypass fitting on it. Should I run a bypass to the manifold?
Mark,
your engine needs to be able to recirculate coolant from behind/below the thermostat back to the suction of the water pump.
The idea is that when the motor is cold & the thermostat closed, coolant MUST still circulate through the block & cylinder heads.
This is true with any motor, not just a Cleveland or Windsor.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
your engine needs to be able to recirculate coolant from behind/below the thermostat back to the suction of the water pump.
The idea is that when the motor is cold & the thermostat closed, coolant MUST still circulate through the block & cylinder heads.
This is true with any motor, not just a Cleveland or Windsor.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
Whooooa! What a factory oversight! Yup I got a Weiand pump too. I think you can fix it by drilling a hole for the bottom block water port just below the two horizontal bolt holes and plumbing it to one of the Weiand redundant pump passages.
I just talked to Weiand, and they say there is no problem. Sure not for them, but me...
George...is it the beer? What brand is it? I need some too!
I just talked to Weiand, and they say there is no problem. Sure not for them, but me...
George...is it the beer? What brand is it? I need some too!
What a relief. I have a water pump waiting to be installed. I saw these posts and dug it out, it is the correct one with the bypass!
Thanks for the information and photos!
Thanks for the information and photos!
The Edelbrock 8844 has the bypass. It's about $160 at Summit.
Now this one I would have never found myself. A Pantera doesn't need more cooling issues.
Thanks George. Drinks on the house on me! (Pssst, barkeep, I didn't say that, ok!)
Now this one I would have never found myself. A Pantera doesn't need more cooling issues.
Thanks George. Drinks on the house on me! (Pssst, barkeep, I didn't say that, ok!)
George, Thanks from me too! I had read previous threads and concluded that the Edelbrock pump was the one I needed, but knowing that you are using it as well makes me feel very confident (plus having you confirm it is the 8844 helps!).
Thanks again from your friend (and student)...
Mark
Thanks again from your friend (and student)...
Mark
Mark, Dennis, Doug,
You are welcome my friends.
1 part Bailey's Irish cream, 2 parts butterscotch schnaaps, it's called a buttery nipple. That plus jumping naked into a hot tub full of young ladies.
George
You are welcome my friends.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
George...is it the beer? What brand is it? I need some too!
1 part Bailey's Irish cream, 2 parts butterscotch schnaaps, it's called a buttery nipple. That plus jumping naked into a hot tub full of young ladies.
George
Sounds posatively titalating, ah, I mean tintalating
Oh man ! LOL I have mine installed and all cleaned and shiney !! The worst part is I either have to retro the wieand or go for the 165 for the edelbrock. Whats your take George ? Anyone have a pic of the drilling and retoring the Wieand, I understand the concept and theory but not sure I understand exactly what the Retro of the Wieand is ??? Or should I just go for the edelbrock ??
Just to throw some more gas on the fire. I have the Weiand on 2511. Put there by Dennis Quella. Has the plate added to the impeller to improve circulation. Triple pass aluminum radiator. Have had the car for 16,000 miles. Live in central CA, hotter than the dickens in summer. Run the A/C, stop and go traffic. Temp is never above 220, never hisses, burps or gurgles.
Maybe - I have never pulled it off - there is a hole drilled for circulation. I don't know.
I think I understand the theory behind what George is saying, and it makes sense, but I can't see where the missing circulation path is causing any trouble at all in my real-world situation.
YMMV
Larry
Maybe - I have never pulled it off - there is a hole drilled for circulation. I don't know.
I think I understand the theory behind what George is saying, and it makes sense, but I can't see where the missing circulation path is causing any trouble at all in my real-world situation.
YMMV
Larry
I opted to take the loss and by the right pump.......George .... guys your a life saver. Sorry but my old FE's were not this complex... this CCCCCCLLLEEEEEEVVVVLAND is just putting me in the learning mode all over again. LOL
Ron,
this is a Weiand problem, not a Cleveland problem.
If you run a remote thermostat, or no thermostat at all, the Weiand is just fine.
(I still prefer the Edelbrock impeller)
George
the pic below is a remote thermostat sold by Evans Cooling. One of these is going into 6018.
this is a Weiand problem, not a Cleveland problem.
If you run a remote thermostat, or no thermostat at all, the Weiand is just fine.
(I still prefer the Edelbrock impeller)
George
the pic below is a remote thermostat sold by Evans Cooling. One of these is going into 6018.
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George,
Do you know if the Milodon or Flow Kooler high volume water pumps for the 351C have the by-pass? Summitt (just down the road for me
) are selling both at around half the price of the Edelbrock, so that begs the question is the Edlebrock that much better and good value for money?
#7024 is overheating badly (straight line up to 260!!) so while I have the system down to change the thermostat I decided I'd change the water pump as well. I'll also check the pressure tank cap too, as I read that can be a huge problem if not seating properly, especially here at 5,000 ft where coolant boils at lower T's. Anyone know an off the shelf replacemnet part # and pressure rating for the cap?
Julian
Do you know if the Milodon or Flow Kooler high volume water pumps for the 351C have the by-pass? Summitt (just down the road for me
) are selling both at around half the price of the Edelbrock, so that begs the question is the Edlebrock that much better and good value for money?#7024 is overheating badly (straight line up to 260!!) so while I have the system down to change the thermostat I decided I'd change the water pump as well. I'll also check the pressure tank cap too, as I read that can be a huge problem if not seating properly, especially here at 5,000 ft where coolant boils at lower T's. Anyone know an off the shelf replacemnet part # and pressure rating for the cap?
Julian
I don't know about those brands at all. I will say that you can drill the Weiand pump for the bypass.
It isn't that the casting for the passage isn't there, it was just never drilled. All you need is a 3/8" drill bit and something to turn it and about 10 minutes of time. Other then that the Weiand pump is a high quality pump at around $100.
The edelbrock is around $170.
It isn't that the casting for the passage isn't there, it was just never drilled. All you need is a 3/8" drill bit and something to turn it and about 10 minutes of time. Other then that the Weiand pump is a high quality pump at around $100.
The edelbrock is around $170.
Julian,
I can't answer your question, I've never seen the business end of either of those pumps.
There are several Pantera owners, and Cleveland enthusiasts on the Cleveland Forum running the Flow Kooler pump, and they are happy with their purchases, the pump lived up to its claims of improving low speed coolant flow & resolving over heating problems. The impeller of that pump looks more like an egg beater than a centifugal water pump, but it delivers the goods. What Flow Kooler is hush hush about is what happens to the flow curve of their pump at engine speeds above 3500 rpm, whether it continues to pump more coolant (desirable), flattens out (not so good) or actually decreases (very bad).
I'm not aware of anybody using the Milodon pump, about all I can say is that Milodon parts are generally choice quality stuff.
Take a trip to Summit, have them pull a pump from stock & take a look for yourself, take your digital camra with you and snap a picture for all of us to see.
The Edelbrock pump has a cast iron, curved vane impeller, which is a highly efficient pump design, compared to paddle wheel type impellers as found in the oem pump & the Weiand pump.
If your motor is still tuned to pass smog, it will run hot. That state of tune is converting less of the combustion energy into work, and more into waste heat, hence higher engine temperatures. The ignition advance needs to be set to acieve highest intake manifold vacuum, as I have instructed folks to do on several occasions. Setting it that way will optimize the motor at low speeds & idle, convert as much combustion energy as possible into work, and as little as possible into waste heat, and reduce the heat load on the coolant system at low speeds.
Your cool running friend on the DTBB, George
I can't answer your question, I've never seen the business end of either of those pumps.
There are several Pantera owners, and Cleveland enthusiasts on the Cleveland Forum running the Flow Kooler pump, and they are happy with their purchases, the pump lived up to its claims of improving low speed coolant flow & resolving over heating problems. The impeller of that pump looks more like an egg beater than a centifugal water pump, but it delivers the goods. What Flow Kooler is hush hush about is what happens to the flow curve of their pump at engine speeds above 3500 rpm, whether it continues to pump more coolant (desirable), flattens out (not so good) or actually decreases (very bad).
I'm not aware of anybody using the Milodon pump, about all I can say is that Milodon parts are generally choice quality stuff.
Take a trip to Summit, have them pull a pump from stock & take a look for yourself, take your digital camra with you and snap a picture for all of us to see.
The Edelbrock pump has a cast iron, curved vane impeller, which is a highly efficient pump design, compared to paddle wheel type impellers as found in the oem pump & the Weiand pump.
If your motor is still tuned to pass smog, it will run hot. That state of tune is converting less of the combustion energy into work, and more into waste heat, hence higher engine temperatures. The ignition advance needs to be set to acieve highest intake manifold vacuum, as I have instructed folks to do on several occasions. Setting it that way will optimize the motor at low speeds & idle, convert as much combustion energy as possible into work, and as little as possible into waste heat, and reduce the heat load on the coolant system at low speeds.
Your cool running friend on the DTBB, George
I'll make a trip down to Summit later today, camera in hand.
On the Flow Kooler web site it does state in te fine print that their pumps have a standard flow at 3500 rpm.
The ignition was reset to more advance as soon as the guy had pulled out the test probes at the smog station as the car boiled during the test 
As Mike Drew put it, I currently have
Just trying to keep my COOL about the whole more expense thing
On the Flow Kooler web site it does state in te fine print that their pumps have a standard flow at 3500 rpm.
The ignition was reset to more advance as soon as the guy had pulled out the test probes at the smog station
as the car boiled during the test As Mike Drew put it, I currently have
All three fans are set up as always on as the relays are shot, just a get me by as none were on when I got the car. Time to invest some $$ (Fluidyne radiator & SPAL fans) and time to clean and go through the whole cooling system I think, especially as its now dead of winter and I'm overheating.quote:that 80's bodge of an added 3rd fan as a puller
Just trying to keep my COOL about the whole more expense thing
George I agree with you I purchased the Edelbrock just based on your picture.. Once I recieved it I inpsected it for my self. With my mechanical backround its a hands down reason why your paying more, is just for just the impeller. The wieand pump is not an impeller, its a blender, the Edelbrock will perform and increase flow all the way thru the pump curve. Ok now we are into gpm and velocity thru the radiator is a whole different theory for another day. Some say too fast and it dosent transfer the heat. My expierience has been quite the opposite.
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
Ok now we are into gpm and velocity thru the radiator is a whole different theory for another day. Some say too fast and it dosent transfer the heat. My expierience has been quite the opposite.
Agreed 100% Ron.
Every good ol' boy truck driver knows if his truck is overheratin' it needs more coolant flow or a bigger radiator.
The Mustang with a 351C in it did not have any cooling problems. so if we duplicate the Mustang system as much as possible, the Pantera shouldn't either.
Look at those long tubes between the motor and the radiator, they are smaller than the hoses on the Mustang! Shouldn't they be equal in size or larger, since they are longer?
As you wrote, for another day.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
Here's the photo of the Milodon HV (30% increased flow) aluminum water pump (#16235) with the recirculation by-pass. This is the pump I decided to go with given price considerations against the Edelbrock (even though that does have that neat cast & obviously expensive impeller 
). The Flow-Kooler went out of consideration as it has std flow above 3500 rpm.
Also picked up the Robert Shaw 180F t-stat and these are set to be today's project. I'll report on the benefits in a while....
Julian
). The Flow-Kooler went out of consideration as it has std flow above 3500 rpm.Also picked up the Robert Shaw 180F t-stat and these are set to be today's project. I'll report on the benefits in a while....
Julian
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Julian, Cna you inspect the impeller. is that a disc over an impeller with curved vians or is it a disc over the standard blender style finns ? it would be nice to know the Milodan is a cheaper option a pic from the side view would reveal this option.
Thanks, Ron
Thanks, Ron
Yup it's got the bypass. Interesting that it has a sealed impeller. I think that the flow on any of these pumps will be fine. The "hot tip" on the Ford impeller was to reduce the OD to reduce high rpm cavitation (makes bubbles).
Cavitation is also bad if you are a submarine. It makes noise that the enamies sonar can hear.
Cavitation is also bad if you are a submarine. It makes noise that the enamies sonar can hear.
quote:Originally posted by Joules5:
Here's the photo of the Milodon HV (30% increased flow) aluminum water pump (#16235) with the recirculation by-pass.
Also picked up the Robert Shaw 180F t-stat and these are set to be today's project. I'll report on the benefits in a while....Julian
Julian, THANKS for taking & posting the pic. Thats the first time I've ever seen the back side of the Milodon pump. If your Pantera is currently running a Windsor style t-stat, you'll be pleased with the results of runing the proper style t-stat.
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
Julian, Cna you inspect the impeller. is that a disc over an impeller with curved vians or is it a disc over the standard blender style finns ? Thanks, Ron
Ron, thats a round disk welded to a paddle wheel.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
The "hot tip" on the Ford impeller was to reduce the OD to reduce high rpm cavitation (makes bubbles).
Doug is referring to the cast curved blade impeller that Ford sold as a replacement for the standard impeller in the oem water pump. Reducing the impeller OD OR milling away every other vane was employed for motors running at NASCAR rpm (4500 to 8500 rpm). That was not a hot tip for street motors. Reducing the rpm of the pump by altering pully sizes would have been equally effective for the NASCAR boys. Automotive water pumps are designed to operate over a certain band of rpm, exceed that and the flow curve takes a nose dive.
Getting pumped with my friends on the DTBB, George
Ron,
Here's your photo of the impeller vanes anyway; They are straight vanes, but they appear to have a greater surface area and tighter tolerance than the OEM pump, that plus the disc probably explains the quoted 30% flow increase. I logged on to the DTBB earlier just in time to take the photo before mounting the pump.
George,
Here's your photo of the impeller vanes anyway; They are straight vanes, but they appear to have a greater surface area and tighter tolerance than the OEM pump, that plus the disc probably explains the quoted 30% flow increase. I logged on to the DTBB earlier just in time to take the photo before mounting the pump.
George,
Yup, you guessed it, found out I had a Windsor style t-stat, so I'm looking for some marked improvement now, with the 180F Cleveland version. Just gonna pick up a new set of belts tomorrow while I have all the access panels off that end of the motor. I may even go as far as picking up some stainless tubing to run the long lengths under the car while I have the cooling system down.quote:If your Pantera is currently running a Windsor style t-stat, you'll be pleased with the results of runing the proper style t-stat.
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