Is there anything tricky about doing a 4 wheel alignment on the Pantera? Can your average mechanic do it? Just curious as to what type of place you trust to do it accurately.
Perhaps I'm overthinking it but this car is 'different' in many aspects.
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Do the fronts first and then the rears. On the fronts, to get 4 to 5 degrees of negative caster, you will probably have to get the left and right upper "A" arms modified for additional upper ball joint movement and additional shims added to make up for the increased width. While at it, have the "A" arms modified for ball joint "locks" to hold proper camber adjustment. Without doing this, you will lucky to achieve 2 degrees on negative caster. Car will feel more stable with more caster, but steering effort will be increased, especially when parking into a space.
I've owned my car since new in 1974, and I feel this is one of most important mods you can make, especially if you run 17" tires in the front.
"Is there anything tricky about doing a 4 wheel alignment on the Pantera? "
Panteras are not particularly difficult to align unless the car has damage to the frame and/or suspension. There is also the factor that the cars are nearly 50 years old and some of the cars have rusty or frozen suspension bolts that have not been turned since installation at the factory.
"Can your average mechanic do it?"
It's possible, but probably not. A typical tire shop that aligns our commuter cars is on a tight schedule. If your car's suspension has been methodically rebuilt and everything is fresh and clean then the answer is yes. Nonetheless, when they see a Pantera they will probably turn you away. There are some alignment shops that are setup to work on classic cars and should be able to make it happen but the cost will be higher.
What is your car's suspension like? Original or rebuilt? Is the car pulling? Is there play in the steering rack? Is the steering wheel centered? Do you have uneven tire wear? Sorry for so many questions, just describe what you know.
The suspension has been rebuilt with new components. I have only driven the car around 25 miles. Based on prior owner history, car has very few miles since last aligned so no tire wear evident, yet. My concern is only visual inspection based at this point - steering wheel needs centering, front toe-out seems excessive, and right rear wheel camber seems a bit more negative than the left side.
I felt it was worth getting it done properly to have a good baseline. I do have a good old school local frame shop nearby where I had an older muscle car aligned, so I will see what their comfort level is working on it.
I'll also check with a few local Pantera owner's to see where they go.
Thanks
I have had success setting the toe with the TrackAce laser. A link is below and it looks like it is $140 shipped. I have used it many times and it is quite accurate. Once the toe is set then centering the steering wheel is fairly easy.
For the camber I use a wheel level to make the sides symmetrical. The rear should be zero or slightly positive. A negative rear camber will wear the inside of wide tires on a Pantera. Each time the rear suspension on a Pantera compresses the camber goes more negative.
Thanks for the input. I just spoke with my old school frame shop - they do alignments on everything from semi-trucks to collector cars (they did a good job on my Camaro many years ago) and they are truly old school - bubbles/gauges. He said if I supply the specs they can do it.
A project for the Spring - the snow is here in Michigan!
Just remember, unless the front "A" arms modifications are done to facilitate additional upper ball joint adjustment, I doubt your alignment guy will be able to get more than 2-1/2 degrees of negative caster. He will run out of back and forth adjustment on the upper ball joint. The caster adjustment should be done first, as this adjustment will affect "toe-in" and you adjust your camber by moving the upper ball joint "in and out", which will also affect "toe-in".Its a deleicated "balance" adjustment, with toe-in being last of the three adjustments. Camber adjustment "locks" are a good addition to add to the upper front "A" frames at this time. Make sure your guy does his "homework" on Pantera front suspensions to prevent having to do the alignment job several times to get it right. I recommend buying a separate left and right set of upper "A" arms and having them modified by Performance Automotive Technology in Massachusetts. About $900 - $1000 a pair including new bushings if you send them a good used set of upper "A" arms to work with. Buy some additional upper ball joint shims also.
Pete M.
I think everybody means POSITIVE Caster. If you use negative caster, it will be the worst driving car you have ever seen.
My bad. Sorry for the confusion. Positive caster is the desired attribute. Upper ball joint centerline forward of lower ball joint centerline in this case.
Pete: Positive caster is when the upper ball joint is to the REAR of the lower ball joint. Think motorcycle or bicycle front wheel. It leans to the rear, that is POSITIVE Caster. If you turn a bicycle front wheel from side to side, it will raise the handlebars when the wheel is turned either way from straight ahead. The weight of the bicycle tries to keep the front wheel straight. An automobile works the same way. Lean the front wheels to the rear and the car resists turning either way, thus it has better straight line stability.
You are correct. Positive caster is when the upper ball joint vertical centerline is behind the lower ball joint centerline. This can be a confusing subject term wise, but I think we finally got it right. Increasing caster angle on Pantera front suspensions is a good thing, especially if you are running wider rims and tires.
I use the same guy for all alignments. His Dad started the business back in the 50s. His son took it over in the 70s. He has a great tech there too. Sounds like anybody that has been around for many years can do it. He did a 4 wheel on mine after I replaced everything. It was WAY out of spec.
A couple of comments here.
First off if you want to increase the front caster past the 2.5+° recommended, then consider putting power steering in the car. You will need it.
What Ford recommended when the U.S. cars were new is all that you need. Some of the numbers some here are suggesting like 5° would be for VERY HIGH SPEED directional stability like if you were racing at Indy at over 200mph. Other then that, you simply don't need it unless you were subject to sudden dip shit fits and are attracted to trees for no apparent reasons.
Keep in mind that most alignment specs are APPROXIMATIONS. It doesn't matter if someone has a computer guided digital alignment machine. It simply doesn't matter if it is off .001° or even more.
As a matter of fact, if you change tire sizes and even tread patterns you likely will need to alter the camber settings to make the tires work. How much? You need to figure that out by trial and error. No one knows that offhand.
High speed rated tires with aggressive tread patterns will certainly require that at some point.
...and if you move away from original springs and shocks to something like Aldens, the car won't move the same way and you need to discover the right settings all over again by trial and error.
The best of the best alignment guys can only put you in the ballpark with them.
Probably the most important setting for both front and rear are the toe settings. You MUST maintain around 3/16" total toe IN or else you are creating a "spin around" at any time "death trap". ESPECIALLY in the rear. You can't have the rear attempting to steer the car. That will happen if you don't have enough toe in and here's the thing, toe in is APPROXIMATE and depends on the tires.
The Pantera is actually a very simple chassis to align
.
Use the weight ballast recommendations of loading the car and if there is a large change required, back it in and out to let the suspension set.
If you are experience with alignments, you can actually do it on your garage floor, presuming that it is flat and reasonably level.
The advantage here is that you don't need to leave it with someone and come back and find they are out driving it "testing".
Doug, before you say additional caster isn't necessary in a Pantera, you should try driving one that has 5 or 6 degrees. It's awesome! Keep in mind, late model 911's have about 8 degrees. By the way, I agree with you re: toe-in at the rear. It keeps the rear following instead of leading.
Dave,
You are absolutely correct about increasing caster in the front suspension of a Pantera. Drive one with 4 to 6 degrees of positive caster will make you a believer, especially if you have wider front rims and tires. Yea, steering effort is increased, especially when parking, but power steering is not a necessity. This caster thing has to be one best kept secrets from Pantera owners. It's probably so because the front upper "A" arms must be modified to get more upper ball joint position movement, which translates into more positive caster above 2 degrees, regardless of how "good" your alignment guy is.
I have not driven a Pantera with +6° Caster. Correct.
What I do know from other vehicles is that will increase steering effort, particularly while parking the car.
It is generally done for high speed stability increases for racing purposes.
That's how the Indy cars can run right up against the wall at over 200mph with a steady steering wheel.
I find it difficult to believe that anyone would put +2.5° in the category of a mistake by Ford? I don't see that and frankly, you don't have the credentials to question that, so stop trying to sell it.
I can understand where a wide body Pantera with 10 inch wide front wheels and285-50-15 tires could benefit from it simply because of the need for improved geometry in front on those cars.
Increasing the castor alone should calm the steering wheel giggling created by the bad geometry created by that wide of a front wheel.
I don't have that situation. I have a narrow stock body with 8x15 Campis and 225-50-15 P7's.
I just don't see the need for additional directional stability in my car at any speed. Sorry.
I would expect power steering to be a very desirable addition with that much additional castor.
I've seen the result of the addition caster settings on the R model Shelby GT350's. The steering in those cars is brutal. You can barely turn the steering wheel at all unless the car is moving.
Maybe what the issue here is the use of the word "need"? I'm not sure.
Doug, increased high speed stability and self-centering of the steering isn’t the only benefit to increased caster. Increasing the caster in a Pantera also improves “turn-in” and reduces understeer. It improves steering “feel” too. If you competed in Autocross, you’d love it. Yes, it increases steering effort but I believe most enthusiasts would find the improvements worth the penalty. Ford likely did not.
@davidnunn posted:Doug, increased high speed stability and self-centering of the steering isn’t the only benefit to increased caster. Increasing the caster in a Pantera also improves “turn-in” and reduces understeer. It improves steering “feel” too. If you competed in Autocross, you’d love it. Yes, it increases steering effort but I believe most enthusiasts would find the improvements worth the penalty. Ford likely did not.
From your lips to Ford's ears.
Ford nixed a bunch of suspension items which make me think they were concerned with creating a race car for the street that their projected buyer would be way over their heads with.
Brakes are another thing.
I autocrossed 40 years ago. Autocross settings are not necessarily if ever good for a street car.
I may "fool" with eps again in the spring (or sooner) and the auspices of that may reopen this for me again. Until then, it's closed.
I've done this, i.e., adding + castor, to other cars. At (only) +5° the tire was so recentered in the wheel opening that it would hit the fender lip in front on turns.
At this moment, I don't want to screw with that under the theory that if it isn't broken, don't fix it.
In that case, in order to center the wheel in the opening, I would have to split the difference and move the top a-arm rearward and the lower one forward. Then you may have a bumpsteer issue unless you bend the pitman arm down.
At this point, I can find grief in other places but thank you for attempting to share the joy and enlightenment you have discovered with me.
Pitman arm??
@forestg posted:Pitman arm??
The spindle steering arms. Sorry having a bad day. Covid booster shot 48 hrs of Hell. Still some fog to clear yet.
You are rotating the spindles by increasing the castor and that means the steering arms/tie rod connections are going up.
That could be helping the bump steer but I doubt that?
There is only one way to know.
You have to measure the change in the steering as the suspension moves up and down BEFORE you make the changes, then again AFTER you make the changes.
Often you will need to readjust the length of the rack steering arms (shorten) in order to get the 3/16" toe in.
By doing so you are changing the arc of the steering arm/tie rod end connection point and you may be creating a greater travel outwards during the swing through the arc which is the definition of bump steer.
Increasing the + castor sounds simple but it is not. You need to keep the wheel/tire centered in the fender and you can't increase or adversely affect the bump steer.
Dillara's original design is good. I never measured the Pantera for bump steer. It isn't a simple thing to go and do casually.
Certainly radial tires help the situation. Bias plys increase the sensitivity negatively.
IF you could show me the original design and it indicates a design of +6°, not +2.5°, then I will agree with you wholeheartedly and say do it and blame the +2.5° on Ford, but everything would have to be as the original specs including the originally specified rack and mounting. You can't modify from that. Even the design ride height is involved.
I've done the Shelby 1" drop on Mustangs and I can tell you that the bump steer is increased dramatically.
In my view it is so severe that the tie rod ends connection points need to be modified with 1-1/2" cnc steel billet blocks to make the car driveable.
This also has to do with castor change since in that case happens to increase it at certain points through the suspensions travel through the arc.
To increase the caster by 3 °, you have to move the upper ball joint back by about 13 mm (approximately because I don't have the courage to go to my garage to precisely measure the distance between the two ball joints), which will move the wheel * / - 6.5 mm in the wheel arch; I don't think that's really a big problem.
I read I don't remember where that the European Pantera had more roulette and that Ford asked that there be less on the US models because in the 1970s, unlike the Europeans, you Americans were already very accustomed to power steering, therefore light, on the one hand and were already subject to speed limits on motorways which made great stability at high speed unnecessary on the other hand.
@rene4406 posted:To increase the caster by 3 °, you have to move the upper ball joint back by about 13 mm (approximately because I don't have the courage to go to my garage to precisely measure the distance between the two ball joints), which will move the wheel * / - 6.5 mm in the wheel arch; I don't think that's really a big problem.
I read I don't remember where that the European Pantera had more roulette and that Ford asked that there be less on the US models because in the 1970s, unlike the Europeans, you Americans were already very accustomed to power steering, therefore light, on the one hand and were already subject to speed limits on motorways which made great stability at high speed unnecessary on the other hand.
The recentering doesn't sound like much but consider that the original tire size was a 185-78-15 and was mounted on a 7" wide rim.
Presuming that one stays with a 15" rim and 8" wide, you can mount a tire of 245-50-15. The entire nature of the clearance on the tires turning arc is altered.
Even so, that concerns me less then what exactly happens to the bump steer?
It is possible that there will be several here that will laugh and say, "Doug doesn't know what he is talking about. I have the +6° and I have NO bump steer".
Well I'd LIKE TO take that as an accurate statement but let me just make a point here. I have personal hands on experience with the '65 Shelby GT350.
That car had a suspension modification done post Ford, by Shelby. That modification introduced a nasty amount of violent bump steer to the car.
Was that even mentioned in magazine road tests of the time? Answer: rarely.
Did owner ever complain about it? Almost never.
So what's my point. Until sometime in the mid to late '70s, owners didn't even realize that there was an issue. They didn't know what the term bump steer even meant.
They thought that the tires were over inflated and/or the Koni shocks were set just to high on rebound?
Now I really don't INTEND to ruffle feathers and call current Pantera owners names inferring that they are stupid, but there are many GLARING examples in posts right here on this forum that would indicate to me that the general knowledge base amongst them is embarrassing low.
In fact, it makes me wonder how the vast lot even would up with these cars at all? Did you go out to buy a pickup truck and saw the rear decklid and thought you could carry hay back to the farm on it?
I don't get it?
I'm wonder how many here even would know WTF anyone is talking about when the subject of bump steer comes up? I'll bet they think it is some kind of a now obsolete "disco dance move"? 
Amazing! ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! LOL FOREVER!
The Bump steer depends on several parameters, the main ones, far ahead of all the others, are the position of the steering rack, in height and lengthwise, and on the position of the articulation point of the steering rods which must be located in the shot of the four triangle joints on the frame. What is true on one car, your '65 Shelby GT 350 for example, is therefore not necessarily true on another.
It is generally possible to reduce the bump steer by adjusting the position of the steering rack with shims.
@rene4406 posted:The Bump steer depends on several parameters, the main ones, far ahead of all the others, are the position of the steering rack, in height and lengthwise, and on the position of the articulation point of the steering rods which must be located in the shot of the four triangle joints on the frame. What is true on one car, your '65 Shelby GT 350 for example, is therefore not necessarily true on another.
It is generally possible to reduce the bump steer by adjusting the position of the steering rack with shims.
I am aware that there are differences. I used the 65 GT350 only as an example of owners not even knowing that they had it or what it is.
What are your measured bump steer changes before the castor changes and after?
All cars are going to have some since the joint center lines move in arcs, not strait lines. You can only retain what exists, increase the change or reduce the change.
Bump steer is going to occur with toe changes due to suspension moves up and down.
I have read PanterDougs comments on Panteras and '65 Mustangs. I find little or no comparison between the two. '65 Mustang is not a rack and pinion design, but rather recirculating ball steering box with Pittman and idler arms, Totally different animals!
It is always difficult to explain in writing how a set of moving parts works in relation to each other and when in addition it is necessary to translate into a language that we know as little as I know English, it is almost impossible. . A drawing would be more meaningful and I will try to make one.
But I can still explain that the modification of the caster is obtained by moving the upper ball joint in a direction perpendicular to the axis of the steering linkage. The ball joint actually moves in an arc of a circle but, for an angle of 3 ° the vertical displacement of the ball joint is only about 1mm, or about 0.5mm at the level of the steering rod, which can be easily compensated with shims under the steering rack
@rene4406 posted:It is always difficult to explain in writing how a set of moving parts works in relation to each other and when in addition it is necessary to translate into a language that we know as little as I know English, it is almost impossible. . A drawing would be more meaningful and I will try to make one.
But I can still explain that the modification of the caster is obtained by moving the upper ball joint in a direction perpendicular to the axis of the steering linkage. The ball joint actually moves in an arc of a circle but, for an angle of 3 ° the vertical displacement of the ball joint is only about 1mm, or about 0.5mm at the level of the steering rod, which can be easily compensated with shims under the steering rack
You don't need to explain it.
You just need to state that the castor change resulted in no toe change.
Probably a better question would be, what is the toe change before the castor change to +6° and an even better one would be, what is an acceptable or unacceptable toe change.
Rene. Thank you for your patience I think that your English comprehension is excellent.
Good thing too. My French is non-existant!
Wow - I guess I brought up a touchy topic! It is good reading though - not sure anyone is aligned on the settings but it is a good debate. Lots of knowlege/experience on this site!!!
I was just trying to get a feel for who you trust to do the alignment. As there are so many variables with this, I will have the shop use the factory settings as a baseline and go from there.
I am coming out of an '08 Porsche 911 turbo with AWD and lots of nannies so it was easy to drive at crazy/illegal speeds on the twisties.
I will be taking it slow on the Pantera for some time until I get comfortable with the handling so I don't need a bunch of caster at this point.
Thanks!
I don't think that we are being testy, just exacting and eliminate inaccuracies caused by generalized statements.
Technical discussions with needed specific answers can seem that way at times. Plus it is an international discussion and there is a "language" understanding struggle.
My point is know what you are doing and why.
Current Porsches like all modern fast cars have multi-link suspension systems (I had a 996 turbo 4 WD) and it's a lot more complicated because everything move in all directions. We are not trying to eliminate the induced micro steering but on the contrary we use them to improve the behavior of the car, for example to increase the toe-in of the outer rear wheel in bends to control oversteer. It is so complicated that the different angles at the different positions cannot be calculated without a computer.
@Panteradoug: Google Translate is very useful
Rene4406 - the Porsches are so well developed. The handling is superb, yet with 19" low profile tires, the ride is actually pretty decent on our Michigan (USA) pothole infested roads, even in Sport mode.
I have only driven my Pantera about 25 miles to get it home from the seller's location, so I haven't gotten a chance to see how it handles the curves (winter is here). It did have a reasonably comfortable ride over the bumps.
Rob: This has been an interesting thread. However, let me go back and try to actually answer your initial question.
1. Any good alignment shop can handle a Pantera. It is not rocket science. You need to make sure they understand you are willing to pay for whatever time it takes to do the job correctly. It is not a 30 minute job. Find a shop with a late model Hunter computer alignment system. The things these systems can do are amazing. They are super accurate and more importantly, they give repeatable numbers, as you will probably have the wheels on and off the car more than once during the process.
2. Here is how we set up my 1973 Pantera L, stock arms and sway bars with polyurethane bushings, Hall lowered suspension about 1-1.5", Koni Shocks, stock wheels and Pirelli tires.
Front:
Caster: 2.70 degrees Positive
Camber: 0.50 degrees Negative
Toe: 0.22 degrees IN total (0.11 per wheel)
Rear:
Camber: 1.55 degrees Negative
Toe: 0.40 degrees IN total (0.20 per wheel)
These numbers are based upon the factory specs, but with some changes due to my 30 years running a vintage sports car race team, and the additional engineering knowledge about chassis alignment known today. Rear toe is enough to give stable braking, buy not wear the tires excessively.
Results: The car drives AMAZING. Super pleasant and responsive steering. Tracks well and brakes in a straight line. Could not be happier. The driving dynamics are one of the most surprising things I have discovered about the Pantera. I have been around Italian GT cars for almost 60 years, and the Pantera amazed me. Feel free to PM me with any questions.
Just guessing, but at positive 2.7 degrees, you ran out of caster adjustment ball joint travel position with stock upper "A" arms>
Pete M.
Pete: I don't remember, there might have been one shim left at the rear of the joint. I forgot to mention, this is for a "street" setup only. Not for racing or track days.
At risk of inflaming any one, it’s not obvious to me how a caster change would result in toe-in or bump steer changes, especially when we are talking about caster changes of 3-5*.
I guess I’ll have to break out my “Engineer to Win”, and “Tune to Win” books, and the included suspension models!
I am familiar with the bump steer, as I have been setting up & swinging the suspension on my TVR. It can be pretty wicked at the limits of suspension travel.
I guess think a key design goal is minimizing it in the 80% of the range the suspension typically operates in.
Rocky
Rocky,
Any change in caster setting will result in a "toe-in" change in a Pantera front suspension.
Having owned a Griffith 200, I can understand your frustration with your 1971 TVR front suspension issues!
Pete M.
@petematus posted:Rocky,
Any change in caster setting will result in a "toe-in" change in a Pantera front suspension.
Having owned a Griffith 200, I can understand your frustration with your 1971 TVR front suspension issues!
Pete M.
That was my point, that the castor re-setting creates a change in toe change.
The issue is that no one can state what that change is nor what the original toe change is.
Therefore by arbitrarily changing to +6°, you are going in blind and stuck with whatever the geometry change results.
Considering that castor increase is beyond what the original Dallara design provided for, why would I arbitrarily presume that is a good change?
That additional castor is also beyond what the original considerations were on the car. So there are stability improvements with it, but what are the trade offs?
I wound up also with just about the same positive caster of 2.7. I could get a little more on one side but I couldn't match them so it was limited to the lesser value.
I have similar camber values as well. -.50° was about what worked. The front doesn't seem to need any more but this is on P7's so I don't know what racing tires would need. Probably another -.5° or so but that's not an issue for me.
Rears are at just about -.75°. I don't want to increase the rear bite more at fear of the rear steering. Larger GTS rear bar. Stock front.
I'm very sure that the car was aimed at drivers expecting to be able to hang the rear out like a live axle car and being able to just back off the throttle if it started to get loose, predictably.
Some of you may like the 911's handling now but my 82 930 still had issues of trailing throttle over steer. The Pantera is much more manageable even with considerable power added over stock.
I'm still looking for what is considered a desirable limit to bump steer. I suppose the real answer is "as little as possible" and one should just hope that it can be acceptable?
This text uses -2.5°/m as the "target". It doesn't state that is desirable.
Over the years, there have been many articles done on resetting the street Pantera suspension for radial tires, not for racing. They are ALL available in the POCA Archives. Use at your own discretion! A few highlights:
* 2.5-2.7 degrees is the max caster one can get from a stock front suspension. Offset upper a-arm bushings will increase it to about 4.2-4.5 degrees. Milling 0.100" off one side of the upper ball joint holders will further increase that to about 5 degrees. If you add power steering, also adding offset bushings in the lower a-arms (along with the uppers) will give 7+ degrees. Custom shims allow trimming to your preferences. No need to cut & weld anything.
* UPPER offset bushings should be installed to push the spindle top toward the cabin, while offset LOWER bushings pull the spindle bottom towards the front bumper. The effect is the same: tilting the spindle for better self-centering and more steering stability. Poly bushings only; rubber bushings are not made in offset configurations because being flexible, they are too imprecise.
* '70s Corvettes use 7 degrees on far larger front tires but they also have stock power steering. My little wife could tolerate 4.5 degrees of caster in our street Pantera with only a bit of puffing and grunting when parking. Above 25 mph one does not notice the steering effort increase from increased caster. She seldom went slow....
* Stock Panteras mid-'72-up got two 5/16" thick factory bump-steer shims between the rack mounts and the chassis. That fixes bump steering and is about the only mistake I've found with Dallara's design (taken from his '69 DeTomaso F-2 open-wheel race car). Lowering the car by any means makes bump-steer worse unless you readjust everything.
* 7" x 15" Campys have nearly 1" of positive front tire-scrub while 8" x 15" Campys have zero. So adding wider 8" Campys in front (with appropriately wider tires) actually makes steering easier & improves front tire life. Check this carefully with all aftermarket wheels.
* Old-school alignment of a Pantera rear suspension is done by backing the car onto an alignment rack and reversing the readings. At least that's the way Bear Alignment used to do it in the '70s. Due to the usual rear subframe collapse (fixed with a properly designed adjustable rear camber bar), the avg. Pantera has about 2 degrees of rear camber which cannot normally be adjusted out. Adjustable upper rear a-arms fix this but then reduce max rear tire sizes.
* Be careful in using stock alignment settings AND driving the Pantera anywhere near its capabilities. The stock chassis is set up slightly nose-HIGH (probably due to DOT bumper and headlight height requirements). Without a front spoiler, the nose will begin to lift above 110 mph. Raking the chassis about 2 degrees nose-LOW helps high speed stability.
* Changing components like steering rod lengths without rechecking everything often reduces or even reverses Ackermann-toe settings. This then affects low speed driveability. One really needs to know what they're doing in changing Pantera alignments due to 'unforseen results'!
4460. 9/72 build. No rack shims or evidence of them when I got it.
With the maximum castor change from offset poly bushings, and my own rack shims added, I can't measure any toe change. Zero.
I would need a digital laser device to measure that 100% accurately I'm sure. I'd suspect there is a trace but for my own purposes I'll call it zero.
Also stock spring spacers removed so car is lowered 1".
*- Agree. My #4366 did not have them either but I've heard of a few '72-1/2 L's having them as well as most '73-up cars. Simple flat 8mm/5/16" thick bump-steer spacers have a part number listed in later Illustrated Parts Lists and in the European GTS/Gr-3 Supplemental Parts Lists, but like most Pantera upgrades, there is no hard date for their introduction. I call it an 'L Model Thing' that carried over to '80s wide body cars at least thru the '87 GT5-s cars.
