I happened to notice on Halls online catalog that 180 headers are not legal for street use in California, according to them?
Anyone know why?
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My guess would be this:
An exemption from Vehicle Code Section 27156 (VC 27156), California's anti-tampering law, is required before any add-on or modified part can be sold in California. Manufacturers interested in obtaining a VC 27156 exemption for an add-on or a modified part should fill-out and submit an application form to the ARB for evaluation. Detailed information on how to do this can be obtained from the document, "Procedures for Exemption of Add-On and Modified Parts," amended June 1, 1990. (PDF - 2.54MB)
An exemption from Vehicle Code Section 27156 (VC 27156), California's anti-tampering law, is required before any add-on or modified part can be sold in California. Manufacturers interested in obtaining a VC 27156 exemption for an add-on or a modified part should fill-out and submit an application form to the ARB for evaluation. Detailed information on how to do this can be obtained from the document, "Procedures for Exemption of Add-On and Modified Parts," amended June 1, 1990. (PDF - 2.54MB)
What? 180's are not legal in California? NOOOOOOOO 
My guess is Hall Pantera got busted for violating section 27150.1 of the vehicle code (see below). Which is a misdemeanor! But only Tara can tell you for sure. Give her a call Doug.
27150(a) Mufflers, vehicle subject to registration not equipped with, or emitting excessive noise.
27150(b) Mufflers, off-highway passenger vehicle not equipped with, or emitting excessive noise.
27150.1 Exhaust system, sale, offering for sale, or installing system, including non-original exhaust equipment, not in compliance with CHP regulation. (Misdemeanor)
27150.1 Exhaust system, sale, offering for sale, or installing system, including non-original exhaust equipment, not in compliance with regulations and standards. (Misdemeanor)
27150.3 "Whistle-tips", shall not operate/modify exhaust system with a whistle tip, nor engage in the business of installing a whistle tip onto an exhaust system.
27151 Exhaust systems, modified to exceed 95 decibels (vehicles under 6000 GVWR, except motorcycles). Exhaust system, modified to amplify or increase noise (vehicles 6000 GVWR & above, and motorcycles).
27152 Exhaust pipes, directed to side between 2 to 11 ft.
27153 Exhaust products, excessive smoke, flame or residue.
27153.5(a) New vehicle registered after 1/1/71, cannot discharge from exhaust more than 10 seconds.
(1) Excess of No. 1 on Ringelmann chart.
(2) Smoke equal to opacity of No. 1 Ringelmann.
27153.5(b) Vehicle sold prior to 1/1/71, limited to
(1) No. 2 on Ringelmann chart.
(2) Smoke equal to opacity of No. 2 Ringelmann.
27154 Exhaust system, not maintained in gas tight condition.
27155 Fuel tank caps required, of noncombustible material.
27156(a) Gross Polluter, operated or left standing on a highway.
27156(b) Smog Device, vehicle not equipped with device when required, or device has been disconnected or modified.
27156(c) Smog device; shall not install, sell, offer for sale, or advertise any device which modifies pollution control device or system.
27156(f) Smog Device, continued operation in violation after notice by peace officer.
27158 Motor vehicle smog device unlawful to operate after 30 days following notification by traffic officer. (Except 1955-1965 year models)
27158.5 Motor vehicle smog device, unlawful to operate after 30 days following notice by peace officer (1955-1965 year model vehicles only).
27200(d) No person shall sell or offer for sale a motor vehicle not in compliance with noise standards.
27200(e) No person shall sell or offer for sale a motor vehicle not in compliance with noise standards.
27202.1 A person shall not park, use, or operate a motorcycle registered in this state that does not bear the federal exhaust system label. Applicable to motorcycles manufactured on or after January 1, 2013.
All of the above violations are “infractions” except where noted.
27150(a) Mufflers, vehicle subject to registration not equipped with, or emitting excessive noise.
27150(b) Mufflers, off-highway passenger vehicle not equipped with, or emitting excessive noise.
27150.1 Exhaust system, sale, offering for sale, or installing system, including non-original exhaust equipment, not in compliance with CHP regulation. (Misdemeanor)
27150.1 Exhaust system, sale, offering for sale, or installing system, including non-original exhaust equipment, not in compliance with regulations and standards. (Misdemeanor)
27150.3 "Whistle-tips", shall not operate/modify exhaust system with a whistle tip, nor engage in the business of installing a whistle tip onto an exhaust system.
27151 Exhaust systems, modified to exceed 95 decibels (vehicles under 6000 GVWR, except motorcycles). Exhaust system, modified to amplify or increase noise (vehicles 6000 GVWR & above, and motorcycles).
27152 Exhaust pipes, directed to side between 2 to 11 ft.
27153 Exhaust products, excessive smoke, flame or residue.
27153.5(a) New vehicle registered after 1/1/71, cannot discharge from exhaust more than 10 seconds.
(1) Excess of No. 1 on Ringelmann chart.
(2) Smoke equal to opacity of No. 1 Ringelmann.
27153.5(b) Vehicle sold prior to 1/1/71, limited to
(1) No. 2 on Ringelmann chart.
(2) Smoke equal to opacity of No. 2 Ringelmann.
27154 Exhaust system, not maintained in gas tight condition.
27155 Fuel tank caps required, of noncombustible material.
27156(a) Gross Polluter, operated or left standing on a highway.
27156(b) Smog Device, vehicle not equipped with device when required, or device has been disconnected or modified.
27156(c) Smog device; shall not install, sell, offer for sale, or advertise any device which modifies pollution control device or system.
27156(f) Smog Device, continued operation in violation after notice by peace officer.
27158 Motor vehicle smog device unlawful to operate after 30 days following notification by traffic officer. (Except 1955-1965 year models)
27158.5 Motor vehicle smog device, unlawful to operate after 30 days following notice by peace officer (1955-1965 year model vehicles only).
27200(d) No person shall sell or offer for sale a motor vehicle not in compliance with noise standards.
27200(e) No person shall sell or offer for sale a motor vehicle not in compliance with noise standards.
27202.1 A person shall not park, use, or operate a motorcycle registered in this state that does not bear the federal exhaust system label. Applicable to motorcycles manufactured on or after January 1, 2013.
All of the above violations are “infractions” except where noted.
From what I see,
1)there is no or little difference between the sound of the stock or 180's. Headers are headers.
2)There are no exhaust emissions devices on new stock Panteras
3)As an import, the Pantera is exempt from air pumps and air injection device requirements.
The only thing I can think of is that they are now selling the headers without the mufflers. As such THAT would be illegal to operate them in that manor?
If it was a noise issue, it is not the headers that cause excessive noise, it is the muffling device.
Stock Ansa's are hardly quiet to begin with. Technically they are a muffler but to me that is giving them more credit than they deserve, AND why are motorcycles and big trucks given more leeway on noise?
The only emissions device not present on my car is the evaporator recycle system.
Incidentally, anyone looking for 180's, check out the prices.
1)there is no or little difference between the sound of the stock or 180's. Headers are headers.
2)There are no exhaust emissions devices on new stock Panteras
3)As an import, the Pantera is exempt from air pumps and air injection device requirements.
The only thing I can think of is that they are now selling the headers without the mufflers. As such THAT would be illegal to operate them in that manor?
If it was a noise issue, it is not the headers that cause excessive noise, it is the muffling device.
Stock Ansa's are hardly quiet to begin with. Technically they are a muffler but to me that is giving them more credit than they deserve, AND why are motorcycles and big trucks given more leeway on noise?
The only emissions device not present on my car is the evaporator recycle system.
Incidentally, anyone looking for 180's, check out the prices.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Incidentally, anyone looking for 180's, check out the prices.
Doug,
As someone who has installed quite a few sets of 180 deg headers , It's not always about price! ;-)
Ron
True.
I have a feeling though that these are old stock headers that Gary probably bought a bunch of 20 years ago and now the girls don't know what to do with them?
However, personally owning a set of them, I would hardly call them crap.
They tend to be one of the earlier sets sold and by todays standards lack some of the glitz that is available.
I always thought that it was Bob Byers who made them originally and if you look at his prices (and the patterns)the prices are about double and they look the same.
What he charges is actually about what I would expect to pay now for a new set.
The ONLY fitting mine required were the #5 or #6 tube needed a very slight flattening up against the fuel tank. EVERYTHING and I mean everything else fit the cat perfectly.
Let's face it. When I bought mine back in '86 or '87 they were intended more for racing than glitz for the street?
The pattern work I was told was done on Halls race car, which was not a slouch. They were made for A3 Motorsport heads he was running at the time and originated on the earlier iron 4v heads.
There are a lot of additional head choices now available and I am not going to get into a debate as what one is better. The only thing I will say is that is personal preference and if a customer thinks one head is better than another and that's what they will pay for, then that's the best head.
I've personally done more that a little fabrication work (and still do) and frankly, I wouldn't build anyone a set for less than about $3,000 anyway. I think that is about what they are worth to build. THEN get them coated and THEN put a muffler on them that will keep the car from getting confiscated by the locals.
I was just pointing out that Hall has them listed for $950 uncoated and without mufflers. That's all.
Not intending to step on anyone else's means of making a living at all.
As a Contractor, I am well aware of having to deal with ridiculously low priced third world competition right here in my own neighborhood.
I often say, you get what you pay for. I definitely will not argue with that. The problem often stems though from a customer who can't tell the difference in quality to begin with. Could that be me? Possibly, but I doubt it.
You want to see headers? Look at the stainless headers Holman-Moody is putting on the continuation MkIV's! Those are ridiculous! Totally outrageous!. The welds look like they were done for NASA by a robot. I asked and they won't even quote me a price for those.
Apparently if you want a set and have to ask you can't afford them and that limits you to only get them on the $950,000+, Mark IV continuation car, then do what you want with them. LOL!
For me, it's just as well. I would expect those stainless tubes to crack through the mandrel bends eventually. I'd be a very unhappy camper. Especially considering that mild steel exhaust tubing is so much easier to work with and probably better than stainless after they are ceramic coated?
I have a feeling though that these are old stock headers that Gary probably bought a bunch of 20 years ago and now the girls don't know what to do with them?
However, personally owning a set of them, I would hardly call them crap.
They tend to be one of the earlier sets sold and by todays standards lack some of the glitz that is available.
I always thought that it was Bob Byers who made them originally and if you look at his prices (and the patterns)the prices are about double and they look the same.
What he charges is actually about what I would expect to pay now for a new set.
The ONLY fitting mine required were the #5 or #6 tube needed a very slight flattening up against the fuel tank. EVERYTHING and I mean everything else fit the cat perfectly.
Let's face it. When I bought mine back in '86 or '87 they were intended more for racing than glitz for the street?
The pattern work I was told was done on Halls race car, which was not a slouch. They were made for A3 Motorsport heads he was running at the time and originated on the earlier iron 4v heads.
There are a lot of additional head choices now available and I am not going to get into a debate as what one is better. The only thing I will say is that is personal preference and if a customer thinks one head is better than another and that's what they will pay for, then that's the best head.
I've personally done more that a little fabrication work (and still do) and frankly, I wouldn't build anyone a set for less than about $3,000 anyway. I think that is about what they are worth to build. THEN get them coated and THEN put a muffler on them that will keep the car from getting confiscated by the locals.
I was just pointing out that Hall has them listed for $950 uncoated and without mufflers. That's all.
Not intending to step on anyone else's means of making a living at all.
As a Contractor, I am well aware of having to deal with ridiculously low priced third world competition right here in my own neighborhood.
I often say, you get what you pay for. I definitely will not argue with that. The problem often stems though from a customer who can't tell the difference in quality to begin with. Could that be me? Possibly, but I doubt it.
You want to see headers? Look at the stainless headers Holman-Moody is putting on the continuation MkIV's! Those are ridiculous! Totally outrageous!. The welds look like they were done for NASA by a robot. I asked and they won't even quote me a price for those.
Apparently if you want a set and have to ask you can't afford them and that limits you to only get them on the $950,000+, Mark IV continuation car, then do what you want with them. LOL!
For me, it's just as well. I would expect those stainless tubes to crack through the mandrel bends eventually. I'd be a very unhappy camper. Especially considering that mild steel exhaust tubing is so much easier to work with and probably better than stainless after they are ceramic coated?
Since we are now on the subject of 180's and discussing those that are offered by Hall. I figure I will add my 2 cents. I purchased a set from Hall. We trial fitted them onto the engine and trans prior to installing the engine in to the car. This took about 6 hours to fit "adjust" read - cut, weld, dent, etc. One of the things I could not live with was the slip fittings. I hate leaks. We welded triangle flanges to both ends with a gasket and bolts. The other thin I was not happy with was the size of the collector and the fact that the collectors were at an angle not straight out. We fixes these items too. It took about 8 hours of work with the engine on the ground. Once the engine was installed we installed the headers and "adjusted" them some more and welded the collectors etc. Once everything was done and fitting well everything was removed and sent out to be coated.
I guess what I am saying is nothing comes easy or cheap. They are decent headers but like many aftermarket parts that are mass produced they need help. A custom set of headers is far superior but too costly for me.
I guess what I am saying is nothing comes easy or cheap. They are decent headers but like many aftermarket parts that are mass produced they need help. A custom set of headers is far superior but too costly for me.
They are not mass produced. They are made like any other headers, by human hand, built on a buck.
One thing that needs to be understood with these things is that if you are building them in one piece, they are only going to fit closely the engine that they are being built on. Secondly, they are going to give you fits getting them on in one piece. In fact, once you run them and they take a set, just getting them off is going to be not easy and at least a two man job. Forget about getting them back on.
You are at least going to have to remove the rear deck and you definitely are going to scratch everything up.
The header flanges on the one piece designs are angled 45 degrees the wrong way for ease of removal or installation.
Building them in one piece is going to encourage them to warp in virtually every axis.
Mine are flanged in the middle. They've been on and off dozens of times. They fit like a glove in the beginning and they still do now.
The flanging makes the entire set kick down easily and makes it very easy to remove any single component without removing the entire set.
NO slip tubes on mine. Everything bolts together with 1/2" flanges.
Design wise, keeping the left side separate from the right reduces the tendency of them to warp. Does it look as nice as them all built in a one piece squirrel cage? No, but serviceability to me is very important.
All of the header bolt holes line up perfectly and there is no twisting or warping of the flanges anywhere.
Exactly what other criteria everyone else is setting for them is beyond me but I suppose ease of satisfaction is a personal thing?
One thing that needs to be understood with these things is that if you are building them in one piece, they are only going to fit closely the engine that they are being built on. Secondly, they are going to give you fits getting them on in one piece. In fact, once you run them and they take a set, just getting them off is going to be not easy and at least a two man job. Forget about getting them back on.
You are at least going to have to remove the rear deck and you definitely are going to scratch everything up.
The header flanges on the one piece designs are angled 45 degrees the wrong way for ease of removal or installation.
Building them in one piece is going to encourage them to warp in virtually every axis.
Mine are flanged in the middle. They've been on and off dozens of times. They fit like a glove in the beginning and they still do now.
The flanging makes the entire set kick down easily and makes it very easy to remove any single component without removing the entire set.
NO slip tubes on mine. Everything bolts together with 1/2" flanges.
Design wise, keeping the left side separate from the right reduces the tendency of them to warp. Does it look as nice as them all built in a one piece squirrel cage? No, but serviceability to me is very important.
All of the header bolt holes line up perfectly and there is no twisting or warping of the flanges anywhere.
Exactly what other criteria everyone else is setting for them is beyond me but I suppose ease of satisfaction is a personal thing?
I think that's why I like to make my own headers. They may not be as good as they could be but at least I control the issues.
Doug,
How about some pics.
Mark
How about some pics.
Mark
@ Comp2: there are NO issues with these headers.
@ ehpantera: OK, but these are the headers before I sent them out to get coated and these are the old mufflers. The pictures are a little old and scanned from prints before digitals.
I found it easier to keep the mufflers presentable by switching them over to polished stainless ones. This way you just wash the dust off of them and they are good to go. They look finished sticking through the back of the car that way.
Doing this from out of town so at the moment don't know where the coated pictures of the headers are.
Also have been a lot of plumbing changes on the intake manifold.
You will get the idea of the fit of Halls headers from these though.
What I like about them it is safe to say many people don't.
Many object to them bolting together over the bell, but to me that simplifies servicing them.
Many also want them to go out through the a/c condenser location. I like them through the body into the stock location cut out like the factory Group 4 cars did. To each his own I suppose?
I suppose also that these are an early set, before they became in vogue and they have developed somewhat aesthetically.
They do kind of remind me of the replacement window portion of the construction industry where the first phrase out of every salesmans mouth is "our windows are better than Andersens are". Seems like everyone claims theirs are better than Halls?
@ ehpantera: OK, but these are the headers before I sent them out to get coated and these are the old mufflers. The pictures are a little old and scanned from prints before digitals.
I found it easier to keep the mufflers presentable by switching them over to polished stainless ones. This way you just wash the dust off of them and they are good to go. They look finished sticking through the back of the car that way.
Doing this from out of town so at the moment don't know where the coated pictures of the headers are.
Also have been a lot of plumbing changes on the intake manifold.
You will get the idea of the fit of Halls headers from these though.
What I like about them it is safe to say many people don't.
Many object to them bolting together over the bell, but to me that simplifies servicing them.
Many also want them to go out through the a/c condenser location. I like them through the body into the stock location cut out like the factory Group 4 cars did. To each his own I suppose?
I suppose also that these are an early set, before they became in vogue and they have developed somewhat aesthetically.
They do kind of remind me of the replacement window portion of the construction industry where the first phrase out of every salesmans mouth is "our windows are better than Andersens are". Seems like everyone claims theirs are better than Halls?
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view from the other side. These things have plenty of room to get at the bolts on and just the cooling tanks had to be moved over. The plastic tank on the fender is no longer there. It was just visiting.
I just flattened the #7 or 8 tube just a little to get it off of the gas tank cover. Thought it might be a good idea to not have them touching?
I just flattened the #7 or 8 tube just a little to get it off of the gas tank cover. Thought it might be a good idea to not have them touching?
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Thanks for the pics. It gives me some ideas. I have a Hall set but am going with A3 heads so some massaging will certainly be necessary.
Mark. Look again. Those are A3 heads you are looking at.
If you have Halls for the 4v iron heads, it may be easier to cut the flanges off and weld on the correct ones?
Besides the slightly different mounting bolt pattern (overlay the header gaskets for both on the heads and the headers) The A3 ports are about 1" higher than the iron head exit.
Even if you can get them to bolt up, the tubes will be too high and the deck will not close as a result.
I don't know if you can get the 4v headers to fit as a result? They are not the same at all. You are much better off with headers made to fit this A3 set up specifically.
He did make the headers for the A3 heads, which is why I have these.
Even so, a couple of the tubes are less than 1/2" away from the decklid and if you don't use a heat shield you will fry the lid.
Incidentally I think these headers and the upward exit of the A3 exhaust ports are as close to perfect as you can get in all likeliness. It's like those heads were made for this configuration.
Here they are ceramic coated. Makes them look like mill finish stainless. The only problem with the coating is it makes them look cool all of the time which they are not. Got burned several times on them thinking they were cooled off.
The stainless xxxx panel is to shield the carbs and the vacuum log which you can see peaking out below.
There is another part to the heat shield that mounts inside the deck lid AND there are addition shields to protect the deck lid shocks as well.
This was the point at which I was hooking up the vacuum manifold to the vacuum gauge and trying to get a pcv valve to work.
That one looks like it is going to require a seperate vacuum pump to make it vent properly? Being told that will yield 25 hp from the same set up is sedating me into accepting that as a solution and being happy and not angry about that.
Three things I love on this set up are #1 the Webers, #2 the headers, #3 the heads. Those I can't live without. Everything else is negotiable?
Those pieces of rubber fuel hose over the ss tubing are for where the engine screen rubs on them.
If you have Halls for the 4v iron heads, it may be easier to cut the flanges off and weld on the correct ones?
Besides the slightly different mounting bolt pattern (overlay the header gaskets for both on the heads and the headers) The A3 ports are about 1" higher than the iron head exit.
Even if you can get them to bolt up, the tubes will be too high and the deck will not close as a result.
I don't know if you can get the 4v headers to fit as a result? They are not the same at all. You are much better off with headers made to fit this A3 set up specifically.
He did make the headers for the A3 heads, which is why I have these.
Even so, a couple of the tubes are less than 1/2" away from the decklid and if you don't use a heat shield you will fry the lid.
Incidentally I think these headers and the upward exit of the A3 exhaust ports are as close to perfect as you can get in all likeliness. It's like those heads were made for this configuration.
Here they are ceramic coated. Makes them look like mill finish stainless. The only problem with the coating is it makes them look cool all of the time which they are not. Got burned several times on them thinking they were cooled off.
The stainless xxxx panel is to shield the carbs and the vacuum log which you can see peaking out below.
There is another part to the heat shield that mounts inside the deck lid AND there are addition shields to protect the deck lid shocks as well.
This was the point at which I was hooking up the vacuum manifold to the vacuum gauge and trying to get a pcv valve to work.
That one looks like it is going to require a seperate vacuum pump to make it vent properly? Being told that will yield 25 hp from the same set up is sedating me into accepting that as a solution and being happy and not angry about that.
Three things I love on this set up are #1 the Webers, #2 the headers, #3 the heads. Those I can't live without. Everything else is negotiable?
Those pieces of rubber fuel hose over the ss tubing are for where the engine screen rubs on them.
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another shot.
If you look at the proximity of the headers to the deck lid struts, this is part of the space that a roll cage leg would be occupying.
The Gp4 headers are different and they curved them away from that space so that leg fits in there.
I think with a roll cage you will need different headers than these. Chances are you will need to leave the car with the header maker though so he can make them to clear the braces.
It has gotten to the point where I have to stop adding pieces and moving others out of the way to accommodate them. As a result, doesn't seem this car will ever have those rear braces?
Anyway, I think these headers fit pretty well. I can't complain. Never bought them as a show stopper but I've noticed a lot of people just have nothing to say when I open the decklid. Funny. Most of them are pretty opinionated too? Can't be that they're ugly?
Still don't know why they are illegal in California? Maybe it's just the Corvette guys made an issue with them? It isn't that they whine, it's more that they have a scream to them. (The headers that is but come to think about it, the Corvette guys do too?) Almost like an Indy car does. Maybe that's it?
The kid on the block with the Harley with no mufflers said to me, "do you know how loud those exhausts are?" I sure do, but how can he hear them?
If you look at the proximity of the headers to the deck lid struts, this is part of the space that a roll cage leg would be occupying.
The Gp4 headers are different and they curved them away from that space so that leg fits in there.
I think with a roll cage you will need different headers than these. Chances are you will need to leave the car with the header maker though so he can make them to clear the braces.
It has gotten to the point where I have to stop adding pieces and moving others out of the way to accommodate them. As a result, doesn't seem this car will ever have those rear braces?
Anyway, I think these headers fit pretty well. I can't complain. Never bought them as a show stopper but I've noticed a lot of people just have nothing to say when I open the decklid. Funny. Most of them are pretty opinionated too? Can't be that they're ugly?
Still don't know why they are illegal in California? Maybe it's just the Corvette guys made an issue with them? It isn't that they whine, it's more that they have a scream to them. (The headers that is but come to think about it, the Corvette guys do too?) Almost like an Indy car does. Maybe that's it?
The kid on the block with the Harley with no mufflers said to me, "do you know how loud those exhausts are?" I sure do, but how can he hear them?
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A Hall "accessory" for those original 180s was a cut-down (and insulated) rear tub that was a bit less than half the as-stock size; reminiscent of the Miura rear tub dimensions. This might keep your co-driver (female-type) happier about the expense involved.
And try not to use logic to explain CA smog or sound laws. Totally inappropriate.
And try not to use logic to explain CA smog or sound laws. Totally inappropriate.
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
A Hall "accessory" for those original 180s was a cut-down (and insulated) rear tub that was a bit less than half the as-stock size; reminiscent of the Miura rear tub dimensions. This might keep your co-driver (female-type) happier about the expense involved.
And try not to use logic to explain CA smog or sound laws. Totally inappropriate.
Got one. It's a double hump and wifey knows nothing about it. Not a place to carry ice cream home from the store in.
Wifey gets car sick when she rides as a passenger so she has never been in the Pantera and likely never will?
Well not to be insensitive about the trials and tribulations of those less fortunate in California, but my main concern would be if NY decides to use California standards to interpret my car.
We still use California numbers on emissions. Rather than rewrite their own law, it was easier for the NYS legislature just to adopt the entire California Motor Vehicle Air Quality Act. Considering the radicalism it in effect has towards motor vehicles, that is always a concern here.
A plus though is that NYS on a car built before the OBD-II computer, all the inspector needs to do is walk around the car and look at it. He doesn't even have to start the engine or check the lights. The issue is really roadside where the cop is knowledgeable and claims it is a kit car? We don't want them impounding anything while the issues are worked out?