Scratch 351 Cleveland Build - What Specs and Parts?

There are also a few obvious things that I intend to do / have done, but in each case there are questions too.

I thought that it makes sense to start defining the basic specs of the engine first, so here are the main questions that I’m wrestling with:

Block and Bottom End Knowns

1) Have the oiling issues of the standard 351 Cleveland block sorted through bushing the tappet bores.
2) Use a windage tray, fit a high flow /pressure oil pump, fit an external oil cooler, use a high volume sump
3) Use a new steel crank and race spec con-rods, etc.

Block and Bottom End Questions

1) What windage trays are best?
2) What oil pumps should be considered?
3) What sumps do people recommend?
4) What steel crank, con rod and bearings set is going to withstand spinning up to 7000rpm and delivering 500-550hp?

Top End Knowns

1) Use aftermarket aluminium heads with closed combustion chamber, and stuffed 4V or 3V currently preferred based on what I have read so far
2) Heads need to fit one of the currently available Weber IDA based inlet manifold
3) Use flat top, round skirted pistons
4) Target compression ratio of 10.5:1
5) Camshaft to work with Weber-based set-up, but perhaps to be more aggressive than a traditional “Weber cam” as that seems to give away too much hp
6) New valves and upgraded spirings to be used

Top End Questions

1) What heads should be used: 2V, 3V or 4V? and what brand?
2) Should fully built-up heads be purchased from the head supplier, or should I put it together – and if they build up the head (i.e. install valves, rockers, etc.) should I specify what parts they use?
3) What valves are best – stainless, titanium, etc. and what springs?
4) What brand / source of pistons?
5) What cam profile and source of cam shaft – and how about rockers and pushrod type and source?

I’m sure that I have omitted many critical elements of optimally specifying the engine, but hopefully this is more than enough to start a good discussion…

When using the stock Ford block, there is a correlation between using a steel crank and the block cracking.
Staying stock, you are better off with an iron crank. It doesn't transmit as much shock into the blocks main web areas and I will point out that by your own description of the intended use of this engine, you need as heavy a balancer as you can find.
As I have said before, my favorite is the Ford Boss balancer.
The stock 4v balancer AT BEST is only good for 6,000 rpm in this engine.
I do have to admit though that I think when you use one, you don't need to hang a huge plastic scrotum from the rear suspension.
Just look at the balancer. That should be enough to realize the stud potential of the engine? That thing is huge!
If your stock equipment is lacking, you are on your own as to which device to substitue for best results? Ask around. Take some pictures of the test subjects and send them to me in a PM?

I'm no expert, but I had the assistance of one.

You can read my build on #5357. I believe the basic "core" of my engine has what you were looking for - unstroked 351C with all the oiling mods. You are planning on going a different way on heads, and carb, but that stuff is all "bolt-on". My goals were:

- 400 - 450 Hp
- Runs on Pump Gas
- Good Vacuum for Power Brakes
- Reliable with No Adjustments Requried
- Oiling Mods

5357 Build

There is a bunch of "body" stuff in my thread, but throughout, I hope there will be information that you may find interesting, and hopefully helpful (plus I am trying to drive up my hit counter..... maybe if I added more cowbell? )


Rocky

PS. There's a tremendous amount of information here if you search.

Here's two:

Back to Basics

Cleveland's Forever

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/cowbell-songs/

I say the 'stoned'...I mean 'Stones', "Honkey Tonk Woman".


A single Holley set up is giving away 80-100hp over a Weber IDA setup...easy. The "Weber cam" reduces overlap to reduce reversion of fuel through the carbs. You loose power because of that. (the cam, not the reversion) The Webers, back in the day, were run with just your basic outrageous timed racing cams and you could see the fuel plumes being thrown out of the carbs. You put a cookie tray over them that collects the raw fuel and lets it drip in an area that won't turn it into a bomb.

There was no consideration at all given to the reversion.

The 69-70 Boss 302 "factory" Trans Am race cars using the dual Holley "Dominator" carbs do EXACTLY the same thing. That's because that manifold IS an independent runner manifold, just like the Weber unit for the Pantera is.

There is no central plenum for the pulse to push back into to load the next intake charge, so the only place it can go is up and out of the carb.

A "classic" Fuel Injection system using the Weber IDA look a like throttle bodies doesn't have the same problem since there is no fuel held in suspension in the throttle body like a carburetor does.


There is another thought that I went through but never completed because I had the Webers working. You could go with a dual quad Holley set up.

There is a 351w dual quad that can be trimmed to fit the Cleveland with adapter plates. Price Motorsports.

Bill can make the adapter for aluminum heads but not 4v iron heads. He got the adapters done for me but never got the manifold cut for me. I waited a year so I gave up. Maybe he will sell you the stuff he made for me?

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/


If there is a drawback to that setup it is the runner flow on that manifold. It flows 285cfm. Many single planes flow over 320cfm now.

The plus is that it is a VERY torque-ie manifold down low AND unless you use a cam that enables 357 inches to be able to use 330 cfm, i.e., over .600 lift, you are wasting your time anyway with worry about intake manifold flow.

Dual quad Holleys with the Ford progressive linkage and vacuum secondary carbs have a characteristic all their own, as well as a sound in and unto themselves. NOTHING else sounds like them or drives like them for that matter.

DO NOT go with the Edelbrock, Carter, AFB dual set up. Those were on the GM's of the 50 and 60's and they have mechanical secondaries and that is NOT the preferred way to use dual quads.


On heads. Many do go through an entire discussion of how much the head flows, but on a Cleveland that flow is only over .600. Actually right around .620-.630 lift. Then they put in a cam with .578" lift? Makes no sense.

Generally to make a lot of horsepower in a Cleveland with stock displacement you need a lot of lift on the cam and you need to turn enough rpm to pump it. Otherwise you go with a big cube stroker. Then about the same amount of power is there but it is down low in the 5,000 rpm range just like a Ford 427 is.



Dan Jones showed that the iron 4v closed chamber heads with a nice valve job but nothing else flow right around 300cfm, but again right around .600 lift. That probably is enough intake flow for a 351? It might not make any more power than that even with a 330cfm intake flow? You could interpret the dyno results in that way.

The issue for the iron heads is the exhaust port which to compliment the intake needs radical modification to do it.



Changing the displacement of the engine but using the same heads, changes where the rpm where the maximum hp is achieved. Brings it lower in the rpm range. More cubes even makes the A3 heads work better.

With a 351c you have to drive it like you hate it. Then it's making power.


You are going to have characteristics more of a Ford 427 if you stroke the Cleveland. That isn't all bad, just a different engine with torque all over the place and drives like a big electric motor. May as well just have a PK (paddle shifted manual trans with no clutch pedal) and drive it like you would a slot car or a go cart. Just point it and punch it. Not too much sense of that scream that a small block would be making. Screaming for mercy for it's life maybe?

My answers to many of your questions are in sticky #3.

Sticky #3

I read carefully what you wrote above, including your "fixed specification". However, for the record, if I were seeking to build a 550 BHP 351C with individual runner carburetion using off-the-shelf parts, I'd use Trick Flow CNC 2V heads, the Aussie Speed Weber manifold, and the popular Weber 48 IDF carbs. That is a 550+ bhp combination. I don't understand choosing to use a carb with the "owner dissatisfaction" record of the 48 IDA.

Did you hear the sound of all those toes cracking when I just stepped on them?

550 horsepower will be easy to achieve with IR carburetion & bundle of snakes exhaust, regardless of which heads you choose. It can be done with a power band that pulls well from 1000 to 7000 rpm, including having low rpm power and drivability. Individual runner carburetion actually improves the low rpm performance of engines with "big cams" if the carbs are set-up and calibrated properly.

Revving to 7000 rpm isn't difficult, but you'll need to decide what type of valve train your engine shall employ before you can discuss a strategy for making it capable of revving that high. Windage trays are a non-issue, whatever racing oil pan you choose shall have a built-in windage tray. The 3 pans mentioned in sticky #3 are all good. I applaud your choice of a 3.5" stroke crankshaft. The stock crank is fully up to the chore of occasional blasts to 7000 rpm. Its been used for 10,000 rpm Pro-Stock drag racing, and 8500 rpm NASCAR racing (500 mile Sunday afternoon drives). If you must have an aftermarket crank select a sportsman crank from a major racing crank supplier like Calles or Bryant, one that the manufacturer specifically claims has been designed to minimize bearing load. The best cranks are fully counterweighted, they are expensive, they are overkill for your application, but they reduce stress on the block and make more horsepower (less power losses compared to a partially counter weighted crank). There are three Weber IDA manifolds available (1) The first is the original manifold designed for 4V heads sold by De Tomaso. Hall Pantera duplicated that manifold, and the Hall Pantera version is the one commonly used. The original De Tomaso version is strictly an expensive collectors item today. (2) The second manifold was also produced and sold by Hall Pantera. It is based on the 4V manifold, but modified to mate with the first generation SVO racing heads. (3) The third manifold is produced and sold by Red Line of Australia. It is designed for 2V heads, but the flanges around the runners that mate with the cylinder heads are large enough to seal up against the larger 4V intake ports. That manifold is not common or popular here in the North America. So in terms of head & manifold compatibility, you can select iron 4V heads, you can select CHI 4V heads, you can fill the bottom of the 4V manifold runners with epoxy and select stuffed port heads from CHI or SCM (CHI calls them 3V heads). You can also select 1980s vintage SVO "A3" race heads or 2V heads (iron 2V heads, Trick Flow 2V heads, etc). I'd select the heads with the best Westlake/Yates high swirl combustion chamber and let a "porter" optimize air flow in whatever heads you choose. People too often overlook the importance of "thermal efficiency" and place all their attention on "volumetric efficiency" (air flow). Heads with Cleveland port geometry and 4V port height can all be ported (by the right person) to flow in the ballpark of each other, that includes the factory iron castings. In my estimation the SCM heads are the best heads out of the box among the heads with 4V height intake ports. They are CNC ported, they have a good exhaust port, the ports are non-turbulent, they have 2.19" intake valves, and they have the best high swirl combustion chamber design. SCM heads are also available with "dropped" combustion chambers. Dropping the combustion chamber achieves the same thing as raising the intake port, but it does so without moving the port entrance. Dished pistons are used to compensate for the decrease in combustion chamber volume. The dropped chamber heads are capable of flowing around 400 cfm. And at that point they are walking away from any other head I've mentioned.

Edit: The thought occurred to me, the runners of the Hall Pantera Weber manifold designed for the SVO A3 cylinder heads may match the intake ports of the SCM cylinder heads. That might be something to investigate.

Good luck with your project.

This is a picture of the two versions of the Hall manifolds together. These pictures are from Jeff Burgy who had them both together at the time. I had them both also but never together for a family picture.

The top one is the raised port for the A3 heads. The bottom for the original iron 4v head.

You can see that the bottom of the intake port is actually filled in about 5/8". If you look closely, you will also notice that the top of the port is raised up about 1/4".

You will see that change in the outside of the port runners also.

Top view. Jeff had added a second linkage tower in order to go to a center shaft linkage like the 289 Cobras used. The reason being, this was going in a Cobra replica on his Boss 351.

In a Pantera you don't need a second tower and actually the front center single tower is needed to make the Pantera throttle cable work with the bellcrank, that is unless you want to re-invent the World. I leave that to the wiser than me group.

There is actually a tricky little modification that you need to do to the Pantera throttle cable in order for it to work in the Pantera with this manifold. When you get to that part, ask me, I'll explain it.

The manifold on the left is for the 4v iron heads, the right for the A3 heads. Look at the top of the intake runners near where it mounts to the heads. See the difference?

...AND IF you want to investigate Aussie type 2v heads AND Cross Ram Fuel Injection systems, I dare anyone to deny this system.

I am told that it still will not fit under the screen though?

This puts a Lamborghini to shame if you ask me...and that is saying something.

This thing is just filthy porn! (and that means good)


Note: Dan Jones made a notation on this particular system stating that his computer simulation program projected that because of the runner lengths, the program predicted this manifold configuration would be restrictive somewhere around 6,000 rpm.

For those who say 48 IDA's are too small and restrictive for the 351c, Shelby ran into that way back in 65 with the 427 Cobra. He did a project with Weber whereby he had 58mm IDA's made for him.

It is said that there were only four complete sets made, that they came in custom made wooden "jewelery boxes" and are serialized.

I know where one brand new set is and it is still in the original box. How you would EVER convince the owner to sell them to you though is beyond me. I'd say forge-a-bout-it. No chance.

Here is a picture of them on a 427 that is going into a Cobra. I don't know if this is in Venice or at LAX? Probably the airport facility?

Just because 58's "theoretically" were right for the bigger displacement didn't prove out in reality.

Apparently they didn't work very well, ALTHOUGH SUPERFORD magazine talked about a guy who showed up at a test track, uninvited" to a photo shoot they were doing for another car. That car was a real "street 427" with the 58mm mounted.

So that owner apparently knew how to get them to work.

It could also have been that Shelby couldn't get them homologated in time or at all and considering the expense of the set up, just dropped them. That happened a lot there and then.

Anyway, sorry for the departure and the side trip. I tried to make it worthwhile.

Here's some pictures of the 58's mounted.

...and another in the Cobra. SUPERFORD said this thing really "boogied". 11 second 1/4 mile.

Notice the differences in the intake manifolds between the two shots?

In this picture the carbs are mounted with the throttles all in line.

I'm told there were only a couple of these intake manifolds cast.

For linkage reasons I would have thought this was the best design? They didn't like it because it didn't make as much power. Line of sight from the throttle opening to the valve.

"They" thought that was important then. Today it is shrugged off as "insignificant"?

quote:

Originally posted by George P:

Did you hear the sound of all those toes cracking when I just stepped on them?

You are not incorrect 'big guy'. Not at all, but you miss the obvious.

The IDA's are what was run in the day, and just like having a real Pantera Gp4 car or maybe a Cobra FIA, or Daytonna Coupe, people want to step into a time machine and "return with us now to the time of yesteryear"- Lone Ranger.

The FACT of the matter is absolutely 99.99% of the population should stay away from them. Even in the catagory of "car enthusiast" another 95% should stay away entirely and forget they ever heard about them.

They just are not what people expect them to be. They were only intended to be race induction and never promised anything but that.

There are lots of "better ways" to go but it is undeniable that once you are exposed to them, you are infected. Infected to a point of no hope of EVER returning to "normality" whatever that is.

MAYBE with a complete brain transplant a person could forget about them, but then would you do a complete heart transplant also to "help me Rhonda, help me get her outta' my heart"? (note to Rocky here: no Cowbell in 'Beach Boys stuff! )


Ernest Hemingway once said after finally breaking up with his significant other, "there is only way to get over a woman (a drunken' slut)...go out a find another (drunken slut)". Then he took a shotgun and blew his own head off. Even he knew that that it was impossible to give it up. Webers are kinda' like that. You are constantly in denial with them and there is no 'reasoning' that will set you free (while you are alive)? It's not logical I know...it's just the way it is.

Look at it this way, they are one of those things that just add color to your character, like in 'Jaws' where 'the Chief, aka as Chiefie' by 'Quint, describes 'Quint' to his wife as "yes...colorful (for lack of a better term) isn't he?" after she remarks "he scares me!".

Here's the Detomaso Weber manifold. Notice how thin the carb mounting flanges are? Look at them on Hall's manifold. This is one of the 'improvements' he made to the design.

IF you want to run something a little different and IF you have the 4v iron heads, you could also consider running a Weiand 1994 Tunnel Ram base with two Holley Dominator #6214 carbs.

The base is already a Dominator bolt pattern without the top. The carbs will bolt right up to it mounted sideways.

Originally you needed to run the 6214 Dominators with the 4 corner idles BUT if you mount a 1" open spacer on it, you can run a regular one with normal primary idles.

The height of that manifold is the same as was run on the Trans Am Boss 302's with the dual dominators.

That set up is as impressive or even more so than the Webers are and certainly make as much power.

ON THE PANTERA ONE thing you can do with the Weber IDA's to help with the fuel reversion is to use tall velocity stacks. 5" is about right.

What happens is that the "cloud of fuel" hovers just over the top of the stock velocity stacks. When you extend them to 5" high, that cloud tends to stay in the stack.

Randy Gillis calls that carb a Holley version of the Weber IDA. It works exactly the same way except for the addition of the power valves.

The spacers under the carbs will also give you a plenum by which you will eliminate the power pulse reversion of the cam, most of it anyway.

Plus your cost for jetting is reduced by 3/4 from that of the Webers.

Every so often I consider this and it becomes just an unnecessary expenditure but it definitely is something that will work and won't stick up any higher than the Webers do.

I don't think that you need an offset distributor with this because of the height of the manifold but I can't promise that. Ask George. This is his dream induction system.

Something to think about. It's a VERY nice dream to have.

What say you GP?

5" tall velocity stacks

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

... What say you GP ...

It requires a very specific Dominator carburetor, one that was designed for IR carburetion, list #6214. Its obsolete, it hasn't been manufactured in decades, finding a pair of them that haven't been ruined by previous owners and that still have their tall boosters is difficult. To install them requires either an off-set distributor or a distributorless ignition. But for me no induction looks quite as "right" sitting on top of a 351C as a pair of those Dominators.

George. A guy out your way that is experienced with this by the name of Randy Gillis is telling me that this manifold is streetable using 1" open spacers and the 750cfm Dominators.

He said he tested it on a Boss 302 powere 'rail' and it had the same trap speeds but lost 2 tenths in the 1/4.

He said you do not need the IR Dominators with the spacer and the spacer stops the reversion through the carbs because it creates a plenum.

Now I am leaning that way. Trying to imagine all of those carbs bulging out like the "Incredible Hulk" bursting out of his shirt?

I'm getting mesmerized and that's dangerous for me, very dangerous?


http://s61.photobucket.com/use...es/DSC02096.jpg.html

The question that arises to me when looking at it is will it fit UNDER the roof of the Pantera? I don't know?

That rocks !

Doug I am an acquainted with Randy. See pic.



I have no argument with his comment regarding adding a plenum to this IR system in a drag racing application. But that is seldom the topic on a Pantera forum. I disagree with applying his comments to a sports car or a road race application.

The 1969 Boss 302 Mustangs were the first application of the Cleveland cylinder heads in a production automobile or in a racing application. The 1969 Boss 302 Mustangs preceded the introduction of the 351C in the 1970 model year by about 6 months. The Boss 302 Mustangs campaigned in the 1969 Trans Am series were equipped with this IR induction utilizing a pair of 6214 carburetors. This is the type of "wide open" induction the 351C was intended to be equipped with. The pic below is an actual Boss 302 with the original 1969 Trans Am induction. Dual 4 barrel carburetors were outlawed by the SCCA for the 1970 season. Folks, that is 2300 cfm of induction.



The photos Doug & 4V posted are all pictures of my carbs & manifold which I sold last year. There's a better photo below.

Ironic it would be George's Weiand and Dominators that would come up with such a good illustration of the Dominator set up?

Randy was really just saying not to waist time on the 6214's. He couldn't get them to work. The set from the blue Boss 302 was for sale in 2012.

He knows what I am considering and he said cut to the chase, the 2" spacer is really what would make them work. The reason for that being that there is a minimum size needed to make a plenum.
He thought the 1" spacer with the 750 cfm carbs is what would work on the street or on a road track in the Pantera.

I think that 600's would be more like it though? I don't know if the engine can use two mechanical secondary 750's?

It isn't an argument really. It's what he saw after trying to dial in the "Warren Tope car", which I presume is the blue Boss?


We had a similar discussion about the 289-302 Holley dual quad manifolds. He runs the T/A version and has an issue with a flat spot in the 3,200 to 3,500 area.

He said, again in cutting to the chase, mount two Holley 1850's jet 'em and leave them alone.


When people ask me about how my Webers are jetted, I do the same thing. I tell them what I am running for fuel/air/emulsion tubes. It's more than getting in the door, it gets you in the game. He's like me in that sense. He tells you what he knows will work. If someone wants to try to reinvent the wheel it's their prerogative.

If someone else comes along and tells me that theirs is right, I'm totally wrong, that's ok, but I already know from my own experiences, pigs can't fly. Of course we did put them in catapults and kind of shoot them, but that's not really flying. Not in my terms, and they don't like it when you do that to them either. The landing is kind of rough?


The difference is his work was done on 302's, 331's, and a 340 (that one's odd, must be a standard bore stroker?) and there is a difference with the Cleveland.

He says the 6214 is just a Weber in disguise. I guess that grew on me?

The issue with that carb, from my Sense, when used in IR, is that the reversion doesn't permit the third circuit to work or work consistently or smoothly and that it is insurmountable. That's where he cuts to the chase and says use the dual 750 Dominators with the spacers.

This work was not done with a "Weber cam" which theoretically could help the issue but at this point I have to presume is still an unknown for anyone who's talking?


A few years ago he offered his Shelby to me to take a couple of passes with it when I came out to one of the recent SAAC Shelby Conventions. I never made it there and he probably will deny that?


Again, it's not an argument, he knows how I think and is saving me a couple of years of work and wrong setups.


I agree with you on the setup. It's "bitchin". Thanks for the info. If this happens it won't be for awhile.

A last thoughton the Dominator setup. Additionally Randy posted that in regards to the Boss 302 T/A setup, "the engineers were adding 'balance tubes' to the manifold".

As I understand that, this was in an attempt to reduce or eliminate the reversion.

This is where he is saying that in effect is an attempt to create a common plenum to the manifold, yet retain the IR design, AND that you need a minimum size for the manifold to "see" the plenum and that size is a minimum of 1" under each carb.

HIS dragster showing no positive effects UNTIL that number became 2" by his own experimentation at the strip.

Cutting to the chase, the 6214's at that point become way to big for what becomes a 2x4 intake, and therefore drop that down to a 750 Dominator size.

Now at this point with the spacers you no longer NEED the Dominator carbs, a regular square bore Holley will do the same thing.

The Dominators at this point are there just for looks.

He also comments that the "cable linkage" was "garbage" and that the linkage (I think the one shown in your picture of the Boss 302's engine) was from another known 'factory' car.

To summarize the entire conversations, he is essentially saying, "get rid of the IR feature".

quote:

Originally posted by deimh:

... I am looking to build an engine that will:

1) Be used predominantly on the street, but things like a lumpy idle etc. aren’t an issue.
2) Achieve 500-550hp at the crank (roughly 400-450hp at the wheels).
3) Have a rev limit of about 7000rpm for occasional short bursts, typically operating in the 3500 – 6000rpm range.

... There are a number of aspects of the specifications that are fixed by pure personal preference, and I would like the engine to:

1) Retain a standard throw crank (as opposed to building a stroker) as I want the engine to rev.
2) Use Weber IDA carburettors and open trumpets (with rear deck notched).
3) Have a 180 degree header exhaust system (exiting through the rear AC grill).

...

Thanks George, appreciate it