Thanks Dave, I am looking for tubing. I checked the ero suppliers but found either too big or too small. I am thinking of making a "grill" for the radiator opening in the hood. I want to play with the idea any way.
Brooke, my wife and I are both pretty worn out and ready to kick back a little.
Mark they fit fine. I have ran the suspension with tire through full travel and I am clear. I still need to make the back half into the mufflers which at this point won't be too much trouble.
They are the type of thing which probably need to be custom built to the car. I have the Ford 400 in mine so the heads are higher and further out which meats these won't fit the 351 (and align). I think the headers are going to be a great alternative to the 180's. As usual several experts told me it wouldn't work but seems to be just fine. Some experts told me heat would blow the tire but under normal driving attitude it was actually further from the tire then when the exhaust is routed through the suspension.
The only thing I wonder is if it will effect the paint on the well. If it does I will add heat shield.
I really wanted to be able to use the tub and I wanted an open exhaust and this seemes to be the answer:
They are the type of thing which probably need to be custom built to the car. I have the Ford 400 in mine so the heads are higher and further out which meats these won't fit the 351 (and align). I think the headers are going to be a great alternative to the 180's. As usual several experts told me it wouldn't work but seems to be just fine. Some experts told me heat would blow the tire but under normal driving attitude it was actually further from the tire then when the exhaust is routed through the suspension.
The only thing I wonder is if it will effect the paint on the well. If it does I will add heat shield.
I really wanted to be able to use the tub and I wanted an open exhaust and this seemes to be the answer:
gary, motor looks great. I really like the headers
Thank You Dave!
Gary
Gary
Gary,
on pg11 of this post you talk about having flywheel problems where one was too small and you were waiting for the right one.What did you end up doing? What is the tooth count you are using? What brand?
thanks
on pg11 of this post you talk about having flywheel problems where one was too small and you were waiting for the right one.What did you end up doing? What is the tooth count you are using? What brand?
thanks
Brooke the flywheel is a CenterForce Pn:700290. It needs to be neutrally balanced and this was not. A quick trip to the balancing shop and it is now neutral.
Cleveland starter did not work but I went to O'Reilly's and got a Ford 460 starter for $71.68 including core charge and tax. The 460 starter is a good starter.
Cleveland starter did not work but I went to O'Reilly's and got a Ford 460 starter for $71.68 including core charge and tax. The 460 starter is a good starter.
Brook are you putting in a 400? The engine builder has another 400 stroked 434 with CHI heads, 4 bolt main and such for sale. He had a client run into money trouble and they are selling it for quite a bit less then what they have in it.
I am putting in a 400.
My 351C short block is trash.
My original goal was to refresh the engine in my car to a nice 300-350HP level and then build a fancy stroker later after I was driving and enjoying the car.
That changed slightly when my short block turned out to be junk. The machine shop I use are big fans of the 400 and had been pressing me to use one. I remember buiding one for a truck in the early 90's with 2v clev heads and bushed rods and pop up pistons that ran really well.
I found a great deal on a 78 400 cast at the Cleveland foundry.My machine shop gave me a dead 400 block to use for mock up so I decided to park a 400 short block under my 4V heads and intake and build a mild engine as originally planned....Only bigger.
I had been following your build with your one off cast bellhousing and was looking to fab my own adapter when Quick Time released their bellhousing. It looks like you have one also.Did you decide not to use your original one?
www.quicktimeinc.com
I have pn RM-8012. Cost was $415 and I bought it direct. Here is a pic of the kit.
The reason I asked about the flywheel is the Quick Time web site lists a 184 tooth flywheel as the application for the 8012 bellhousing. IIRC the standard 400 flywheel is 180 and I could only find 184 for FE applications.
I will try your recommendation of the 182 and a 460 starter.
I had planned on fabbing my own headers anyway and now I just add motor mounts to that. I am a ways from mock up but am buying parts ahead of where I am so I will be ready when I get to that point.
My 351C short block is trash.
My original goal was to refresh the engine in my car to a nice 300-350HP level and then build a fancy stroker later after I was driving and enjoying the car.
That changed slightly when my short block turned out to be junk. The machine shop I use are big fans of the 400 and had been pressing me to use one. I remember buiding one for a truck in the early 90's with 2v clev heads and bushed rods and pop up pistons that ran really well.
I found a great deal on a 78 400 cast at the Cleveland foundry.My machine shop gave me a dead 400 block to use for mock up so I decided to park a 400 short block under my 4V heads and intake and build a mild engine as originally planned....Only bigger.
I had been following your build with your one off cast bellhousing and was looking to fab my own adapter when Quick Time released their bellhousing. It looks like you have one also.Did you decide not to use your original one?
www.quicktimeinc.com
I have pn RM-8012. Cost was $415 and I bought it direct. Here is a pic of the kit.
The reason I asked about the flywheel is the Quick Time web site lists a 184 tooth flywheel as the application for the 8012 bellhousing. IIRC the standard 400 flywheel is 180 and I could only find 184 for FE applications.
I will try your recommendation of the 182 and a 460 starter.
I had planned on fabbing my own headers anyway and now I just add motor mounts to that. I am a ways from mock up but am buying parts ahead of where I am so I will be ready when I get to that point.
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I will tell you it started right up. I did have to hog out the back plate which came with the bell housing to get the starter to fit. The opening just needed to be open more. Did not change the alignment bolts and it starts fine.
You want to start another thread for your engine? Would love to follow the progress. Did you see the engine mounts I made and how I did? You can drill and tap one side of the 400 for the Cleveland mount. The embosement was there on one side.
You know Tim has stroker kits for it.
http://www.tmeyerinc.com/
Let me know how I can help.
You want to start another thread for your engine? Would love to follow the progress. Did you see the engine mounts I made and how I did? You can drill and tap one side of the 400 for the Cleveland mount. The embosement was there on one side.
You know Tim has stroker kits for it.
http://www.tmeyerinc.com/
Let me know how I can help.
I did see your mounts, they looked nice. I am trying to decide if I want to do it that way or fab the lower mount and use the truck mounts on the block. I will check price and availability of the trunk mounts first and maybe that will help me decide.
I could start a thread. I think you have covered most of it really good here.
Maybe I will start a thread when I get farther along and have more defined solutions to my installation.I don't want it to be redundant to what you have posted.
Our application differences will be me using my 351C heads and intake, my retaining my AC and factory belt drive system. I will for the time being, be using factory GTS Ansa mufflers so my new headers will tie into them.
My goal is to do this swap changing the fewest parts possible and see how far I can simplify it."Dummy it down" I think is the term people use.
I have had some people ask why I just don't go 460 and as you have previously stated its about packaging. The 400 I think will be less fab/relocating. I have also had people ask why I dont get another C block and stroke it. Well, with the 400 I already have, I just did it with a short block change instead of a kit. When I do buy a stroker kit it will be even bigger.
Building a hot rod 400 is not a new concept, the 4X4 crowd around here have been doing it for years. I think its the application in a Pantera that is not so common but I'm sure others have done it.
I can see I have to fab a mount for my existing clutch slave.
What are you doing for your throwout?
A hydraulic bearing?
I saw Tim's stroker kits on his web site. That will be a good choice for a later engine.
Just keep posting on your thread and that will be a big help. Things like how you overcame your starter problem and issues like that help a lot especially if someone else is also thinking of doing the same swap.
I could start a thread. I think you have covered most of it really good here.
Maybe I will start a thread when I get farther along and have more defined solutions to my installation.I don't want it to be redundant to what you have posted.
Our application differences will be me using my 351C heads and intake, my retaining my AC and factory belt drive system. I will for the time being, be using factory GTS Ansa mufflers so my new headers will tie into them.
My goal is to do this swap changing the fewest parts possible and see how far I can simplify it."Dummy it down" I think is the term people use.
I have had some people ask why I just don't go 460 and as you have previously stated its about packaging. The 400 I think will be less fab/relocating. I have also had people ask why I dont get another C block and stroke it. Well, with the 400 I already have, I just did it with a short block change instead of a kit. When I do buy a stroker kit it will be even bigger.
Building a hot rod 400 is not a new concept, the 4X4 crowd around here have been doing it for years. I think its the application in a Pantera that is not so common but I'm sure others have done it.
I can see I have to fab a mount for my existing clutch slave.
What are you doing for your throwout?
A hydraulic bearing?
I saw Tim's stroker kits on his web site. That will be a good choice for a later engine.
Just keep posting on your thread and that will be a big help. Things like how you overcame your starter problem and issues like that help a lot especially if someone else is also thinking of doing the same swap.
Oh I would love for you to start a duplicate thread. I don't think it would be redundant at all. I have been a little slow but I have had a tremendously productive spring and hope to pick up steam again shortly. I did get one fender vent welded in. I am off to simulator training for 2 weeks so I hope to really start to focus on it when I get back:
BROOKE,
I got the low down on the flywheel. I got screwed up in our exchanges, I wasn't sure what we tried but I checked it out and I am 100% sure what I got now.
I DO have Centerforce #700290 and it IS a 176 tooth flywheel. I confirmed by both counting the teeth and verifying the numbers on the flywheel. I hope I have not confused you but some how I snapped back into some other discussions with Tim.
It DOES need to be BALANCED NEUTRAL which can be done at a balance shop. If you have a hard time finding one let me know I have a good one here I can steer you too.
I got the low down on the flywheel. I got screwed up in our exchanges, I wasn't sure what we tried but I checked it out and I am 100% sure what I got now.
I DO have Centerforce #700290 and it IS a 176 tooth flywheel. I confirmed by both counting the teeth and verifying the numbers on the flywheel. I hope I have not confused you but some how I snapped back into some other discussions with Tim.
It DOES need to be BALANCED NEUTRAL which can be done at a balance shop. If you have a hard time finding one let me know I have a good one here I can steer you too.
I removed the reference to anything other then 176 tooth so no one would review the threads and get the wrong flywheel.
This is the list I keep in the garage. It is ever updated on Excel.
Top Left is a work in progress on the Pantera. I expand each phase as I get to it. Right now I have everything listed I need to do before I put the car back on the rotisserie, what needs to be done before it comes off, and the order of things before paint. I don't have much past it as this is my main concern now.
As I update things, add things, cross things off I change it in Excel and print out the latest copy.
The bottom sheets keep track of everything from oil changes, types, filter numbers, tires, mileage, etc on the other cars.
The top right sheets are to do's and squawks for the other cars.
These list really help me walk away for a couple weeks at a time and dive right back in it when I get time.
Top Left is a work in progress on the Pantera. I expand each phase as I get to it. Right now I have everything listed I need to do before I put the car back on the rotisserie, what needs to be done before it comes off, and the order of things before paint. I don't have much past it as this is my main concern now.
As I update things, add things, cross things off I change it in Excel and print out the latest copy.
The bottom sheets keep track of everything from oil changes, types, filter numbers, tires, mileage, etc on the other cars.
The top right sheets are to do's and squawks for the other cars.
These list really help me walk away for a couple weeks at a time and dive right back in it when I get time.
Gary,
I ran into a snag today with the bellhousing.
My Dad came over to the shop and wanted to see my fancy bellhousing mounted to the ZF.
As it turnes out the bellhousing is made for the GT40 application so the bolt pattern is 180 off from how it mounts in the Pantera.
He held it up to my ZF and said that there was no way it was going on there. He was half right it bolted up fine when it was upside down!
My solution will be to call them Monday and see if they can make me one with the ring rotated 180 or I will transfer punch this one, mount it to a milling machine and redrill it myself.
I think the Mangusta is 180 from the pantera also. Hmmmm a 460 in a Mangusta...
Here are the pics from today
I ran into a snag today with the bellhousing.
My Dad came over to the shop and wanted to see my fancy bellhousing mounted to the ZF.
As it turnes out the bellhousing is made for the GT40 application so the bolt pattern is 180 off from how it mounts in the Pantera.
He held it up to my ZF and said that there was no way it was going on there. He was half right it bolted up fine when it was upside down!
My solution will be to call them Monday and see if they can make me one with the ring rotated 180 or I will transfer punch this one, mount it to a milling machine and redrill it myself.
I think the Mangusta is 180 from the pantera also. Hmmmm a 460 in a Mangusta...
Here are the pics from today
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Here it is rotated so the holes line up.
Another clue was that the top two holes on the Quick time bellhousing are not threaded. The bottom two on my original bellhousing arent either because it takes bolts there instead of the studs.
I didn't see where you had mentioned this in any of your posts. The Id of the new bell fits the lip of the ZF perfectly so atleast that works.
Another clue was that the top two holes on the Quick time bellhousing are not threaded. The bottom two on my original bellhousing arent either because it takes bolts there instead of the studs.
I didn't see where you had mentioned this in any of your posts. The Id of the new bell fits the lip of the ZF perfectly so atleast that works.
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Excellent Brook. I haven't had the ZF up to mine yet. I will go look here in a minute. Does it look like new holes can be drilled and tapped?
Assuming mine is the same (and I would assume it is) I will call my engine builder to see if he can get quick time to do it right.
You are getting to another puzzle I have been thinking about. After market parts are notoriously bad. I know we have had tremendous trouble with ALL the cam manufacturers not getting the cams lift to match the profile (that's another story).
The most critical part of these bell housings is input shaft alignment. On a more traditional application one would dial it in on the calibrated hole. Any ideas of how to calibrate this with these bell housings?
Gary
Assuming mine is the same (and I would assume it is) I will call my engine builder to see if he can get quick time to do it right.
You are getting to another puzzle I have been thinking about. After market parts are notoriously bad. I know we have had tremendous trouble with ALL the cam manufacturers not getting the cams lift to match the profile (that's another story).
The most critical part of these bell housings is input shaft alignment. On a more traditional application one would dial it in on the calibrated hole. Any ideas of how to calibrate this with these bell housings?
Gary
Brook I just dug up a photo. Mine is wrong too:
