Air cleaner help.

K&N makes a specific air cleaner for the 48 IDA Weber carbs.

I'm not sure that the throttle bodies you have are the same as those carbs?

IF I suppose you are using the HALL PANTERA Weber intake then I suppose they must be the same center to center dimensions?

I would think that the filter for them would fit yours.The filters are serviced separately.

Check this one out. See if it helps anything?

http://www.knfilters.com/searc...ct.aspx?prod=56-1210

It may be that the baseplate for your TB are unique and or custom made.

I had a set that I sold. I can confirm that they did not have the overlap issue that you now have.


The information on that page indicates that these filters are red. That may be a mis-listing, i.e., "in error".

The picture they show is the filter I had. It is not red and the ones I had (a set of four) were all black like the picture.

I think these are the filters that you need?

Do you have a picture of the entire assembly put together on the engine?

quote:

My car has ITB's with EFI, so it looks like it has Webers, 2 rows of sexy velocity stacks.

Do you have a picture of just the filter base and the EFI system?

quote:

I've found that the air cleaners are short, and when installed, cover half of the four corner stacks, literally. Each air cleaner needs to be 2" longer to reach around and fit the air cleaner bases properly so the air cleaners don't cover half of four of the stacks……I get part # A131A6 on the air cleaner itself.

When you say “air cleaners” you mean the filter element, correct?....Not the Filter base and lid. If the base and lid happen to be those that Pantera Performance sold with their IR EFI systems, they required a custom (diameter) size K&N element. Dennis use to buy them in a large enough quantity to make it somewhat sensible….but it’s not practical to buy a pair. You can get K&N to make a custom height but not much interest in custom diameters especially for a pair. If this is so, the easiest thing to do is buy a larger circumference element of the proper width and height you need, then cut and splice it to the new circumference. I’ve done it many times and will email a multi-slide pdf how to file to you if you wish.

Best,
K

It's lookimg more and more like I'm going to need to modify these filters to fit.

Especially at the prices I saw for the elements in that link, which were 1/3 the length I needed, I'll cut the filer, plasidip the ends, and wire and spacer into make them fit properly.

I'm done spending money on this car right now. It's putting me in tne poorhouse.

Today I spent $75 on tools I needed, and $50 to my friend who helped me. I hope I have 2 dollars left by the time Snow White gets running.

Most of the K&N Elements in the size range that could be adapted are $45-$50 each and available online. Once purchased they are washable and if handled properly very long life.

K

That is the exact same air filter setup I have, but the filters are short.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
That is the exact same air filter setup I have, but the filters are short.

Not quite. The filter gland is a different perimeter so it accepts a standard diameter K&N filter element which is available in multiple heights. Also, the center two pockets for the velocity stacks on the bottom of the filter base in the filter assembly pictured are on different centers because the Hall IDA intake has a unique distance between the center two barrels on each side. It's not a lot (somewhere around .100"-.150" IIRC) but enough that the bases wont interchange because the v-stacks wont seat in the pockets.

I don't know the origins of why this is so, but I do know it is so. If you do the layout work to determine how to center the Weber IDA barrel spacing on 4 3/8" sbf cylinder centerlines, you'll discover this unique dimension causes slight asymmetry of the four central runners on the intake compared to the four outer runners. If you were hand porting the intake you wouldn't notice this but if you were developing a step-over ball end mill CNC program to transition the round IDA openings to the rectangular port window on a sbf cylinder head, you would be expecting each pair of IDA runners to be mirror images of each other.....and on the Hall intake they are not. Ask me how I know.

Ever get the feeling you're standing on trampled ground?

Best,
K

It is all because everything is based upon the original IDA dimensions.


I think the reason that the 46IDF then the 46, the the 48 IDA's were made as twin throats vs making one single four throat carb with the correct center to center bores to fit the SB Ford is a simple answer.

The throttle shafts on the carbs twist very easily. If you had one single long throttle shaft for each single "Weber" Inline 4 barrel, the end loading of the throttle would quickly have twisted enough so that it the throttle plate at the opposite end would be twisted hopelessly out of sync.

How the Porsche version 46-3 IDA's for the 911 S, three barrel carbs actually survive and function I don't know.



Did it ever occur to Weber to use a hardened steel shaft? I would have to presume, yes, but what the reluctance on that was, I don't know?

I do know that on the Ford with the four 48IDA's, you MUST actuate the throttles from the center of the assemblies and not the far end of the assembly.



It could also have been that Weber felt one single inline 4v was too specialized to the Fords and there wouldn't have been enough product demand for it, whereas dual throats ganged together was more of a modular/universal product?

The spacing evolved too being what was necessary at the time to install all of the operating hardware such as jets and emulsion tubes.



Sure, Ford accomplished that with the Autolite Inlines but their total approach was different...AND they weren't stubborn Italians?

As a result, you cast the manifold to mate the IDA's to the intake ports of the engine. If you look at some of the variations of the castings particularly on the 289/Boss 302 I clearly see that was somewhat of an frustrating engineering exercise for sure.



The Cleveland version of the manifold is actually a much better functioning manifold because you have a 9.2" deck height vs the tiny 8.0 or whatever on the 289/302 block.

The Cleveland manifold at least somewhat seems to recognize the "desirable" carb to valve runner length to work as a ram tune a little? I don't see where that effect exists on the 289 manifolds at all. Those ports are too short to give the effect?



Dan Jones was talking about that number. It is entered into his software "hp computer" calculation now. I want to say it is a minimum of 4.5".

The "Pantera Weber" manifold seems to incorporate that in the castings? Halls is a copy of the Detomaso manifold which is said was originally developed and built by "Holman-Moody" and sold or given to Detomaso?

That part of the history of the "Pantera Weber" manifold is still undocumented but unless you make your own intake manifold ( ) you are stuck with all of that to work with.

Well, I'm stuck with short air cleaners that cover half of the four corner stacks.

I'll try calling KN before cutting the ones I have up and modifying them.

Maybe theymake a set that's like 2" longer.

Ooy! Kids!

Chances are the air cleaners that YOU have are the ones that IPSCO made for just about every Pantera shop out there?

http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera.htm

Try their web site first. Then call them if you have too.

For some inexplicable reason you have the wrong air filters on the right "air cleaners".

The tops and the bottoms that you have were made in consideration of what air filters were available. Not some Phantom that never did exist. There is an K&N filter they were made for. You just ain't got it and I just don't know the part number.

If you are interested, there is probably another 80 t0 100 hp that is hiding in that engine if you run the stacks naked?

The air cleaner assemblies really offer no special advantages. In fact they are cumbersome as all heck. They even partially block your rear view and the only thing they are even marginally good for is keeping the water out of the stacks when you wash the car.

Call IPSCO. Describe the air cleaners you have or even text or email them pictures of the tops and bottoms that you have.

They very likely will say, "yep, we made 'em". Then there is your window of opportunity, just say, "I need new air filters for them that fit right", well considering all the aspects of recent discussions here, maybe say "I need the correct air filters". Stay away from using the term right.

They might misinterpret that to mean you don't need the left side air filter too?

Hall probably has the filters separately also?

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...ntera-inc&item=22776

I called K&N, and the part numbers on the filters were just mold numbers, but the lady was able to identify what I had.

They are round filters that have been bent and formed to fit (badly).

I got a couple part #'s of filters that are slightly larger in diameter, but 1/2" thicker, so at worst I'll have to find some longer taper headed all bolts to make the larger filters work.

I would LOVE to run the car without air cleaners, there is nothing sexier than 8 vertical velocity stacks sticking up out the top of a V8, but I'm afraid of sucking dirt and debris into the engine.

The back of the car is already shaped like a diffuser, and my AC is gone so I just have the wire mesh screen, which with the negative pressure formed by the shape of the car at speed I suspect will suck in all kinds of engine damaging debris.

There is no aerodynamic issue with running open stack on a Pantera at all. It's very common.

There are oval air filters made by K&N. I don't think you researched this enough.

Did you call IPSCO in Colorado? You should.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

The information on that page indicates that these filters are red. That may be a mis-listing, i.e., "in error".

The picture they show is the filter I had. It is not red and the ones I had (a set of four) were all black like the picture.

They will become red once oiled, and you are supposed to use them oiled, so, yes, K&N filters are "red"... And in general, they are sold pre-oiled, thus "red" too :-) They sure will work without oil, but the oil increases the filter function.

So are you saying it's safe to run my Pantera with naked stacks/no air cleaners?

I have EFI, there's a small sensor mounted to one of the air cleaner base plates, (MAF?) will the car run without the air cleaners in place?

I'm planning on just cutting the pieces I have now and inserting spacers, so they fit the mounts properly and don't cover hald of four of the stacks.

Hell, even a couple layers of duct tape over the open spots would work, at least temporarily.

My plan is to wire/sew in plastic spacers into the open spaces, so I don't have 2" openings on each side of my air cleaners.

I'll check the other places you told me about and see if I can't just find the proper fitting air cleaners.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
There is no aerodynamic issue with running open stack on a Pantera at all. It's very common.

There are oval air filters made by K&N. I don't think you researched this enough.

Did you call IPSCO in Colorado? You should.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug: Ooy! Kids! Chances are the air cleaners that YOU have are the ones that IPSCO made for just about every Pantera shop out there? ..Try their web site first. Then call them if you have too……… Call IPSCO. Describe the air cleaners you have or even text or email them pictures of the tops and bottoms that you have. They very likely will say, "yep, we made 'em". Then there is your window of opportunity, just say, "I need new air filters for them that fit right", well considering all the aspects of recent discussions here, maybe say "I need the correct air filters". Stay away from using the term right.
http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera.htm

Though Mark has made many, he has never made any Pantera IR EFI filters like that for anyone other Quella and me…and mine differ from Dennis’ in the manner I mentioned in the previous post. I have adapted mine for a few guys that wanted to use my version of the filter (which is also wider) for use on their IR EFI system based on the Hall intake, because they use standard K&N filters you can buy one at a time instead of being confronted with what Mike is now. Mark has never sold these (other than Quella/PPC) or even similar versions for Weber IDA Carbs to Hall nor any other Pantera vendor. He made one set of Weber IDA Carb filters for himself and the base is much more complex to interface with the IDAs…that’s it, and that’s still the case.

So if that is a filter base and lid were made by Mark (IPSCO), I know what it is. I say if, because the first thing that usually happened after Mark developed and made something nice was all the West coast shops reverse engineered it and locally sourced their own version. So if that happens to be the case, Mike’s filters could be just about anything, and I can’t help ya, other than the recommendation to splice the elements to proper size. That’s why I asked for a picture of Mikes EFI system. Odds are it is Quella’s, and if the velocity stacks nest nicely in those pockets, odd’s are even greater this is such because the IPSCO v-stacks also have some unique dimensional features

quote:

The tops and the bottoms that you have were made in consideration of what air filters were available.

Yes, according to Mark, the K&N filter element may have had its origins for use in a similar Weber IDA filter assembly, but it wasn’t for IPSCO or Quella. They just chose to use this element and there was a reason for it and it’s the same reason the filter element gland in the filter base breaks into the radius on the vstack opening



….and that’s because the passenger side filter assembly becomes too long and hits the back window when you use taller elements or mount them on top of TWM throttle bodies. Same thing happens on IDA Carbs. Dimensionally they could make it all work with that filter element which has long since gone obsolete. All this was more than twelve years ago, and when I spoke to K&N engineering then, they declined to disclose the original purpose for the filter, but were quite clear about it being unavailable for quite some time and IIRC, didn’t want to talk about it unless it was a minimum order of 50-100 and still ridiculous price and lead time. So you’re SOL unless some other manufacturer started making a comparable element.

The other thing you need to know about these K&N filter elements is they’re just round elements that have no wire reinforcement so they are flexible enough to be formed into ovals and other shapes and that’s why they’re popular for making custom filter assemblies. They also get a bit flimsy in taller heights because of this. You may think all you need to do is calculate the circumference of your oval and buy a round filter of the same circumference. However, when you bend them they stretch more on the OD then they compress on the ID and the cross section also distorts, so they won’t fit the filter gland like you expect if that’s all you do. All of this is the kind of stuff that’s learned by those who actually have done it instead of just having read about it on the internet.

quote:

The air cleaner assemblies really offer no special advantages. In fact they are cumbersome as all heck. They even partially block your rear view and the only thing they are even marginally good for is keeping the water out of the stacks when you wash the car…… The air cleaner assemblies really offer no special advantages.

True, no performance advantage; no air filters do….it’s more about minimizing the loss associated with having clean air for you engine. But Mike here’s some good advice, run open stacks on the street at your own peril pal, and if you think you current experience is unpleasant just wait until your engine ingests a piece of debris large enough to bend a valve and then see what you have on your hands. There was a reason Roger was pointing that out all that garbage the engine compartment collected. If I was you I’d fix the filter element because as you’ve noted you’re wasting your time reading plugs and tuning with this condition. I use E-3710 (2” tall). It’s been so long I don’t recall, but even though they may be sufficient circumference, they may are a wider cross section and if so, not useful to spliced and be used for your hardware.

quote:

In fact they are cumbersome as all heck. They even partially block your rear view and the only thing they are even marginally good for is keeping the water out of the stacks when you wash the car.

I got tired of the filter assembly coming apart in my hands every time I took the filters off, so I made a simple mod that allows them to remain assembled when removed and would recommend you do the same. Just put a threaded insert into the base, and a ¼-20 stud through the threaded insert such that it sticks up into the filter interior far enough to screw the standoff on (locktite). It needs to protrude below the base far enough to slide the v-stack clamp on with a wing nut. After you get things stable, use either a ny-lock wing nut or drill a hole in the wing and safety wire it. On the rear view mirror part, just try to concentrate on what’s in front of you.






Best,
K

Mike, as I remember your intake (from Dennis Quella's Pantera Performance), it is a two-piece unit that bolts individually on each cylinder head, with a separate valley cover. Roger initially had problems holding a consistent idle speed, until he found that his aluminum heads and intakes were expanding enough with heat to pull on the cross-link attaching the right throttle body to the main cable. The fix was the custom steel center brace that sufficiently tied the two banks together so heat expansion would not pull on the right side throttles. So even if the brace is interfering with the custom air cleaners, do not remove it or the idle speed will creep from 900 to 1300 rpms as the engine gets warm. The spacing within each intake section is 'std' 48IDA Weber.

Sound advice Kelly, thanks. Experience counts a lot and that is what we are trying to share also. I did have a set sourced through Hall that used a one piece filter. Pretty sure there were K&N markings on them. No markings on the tops and bottoms.

I had a set of the four chrome K&N filters also. Sold those as well.

Like you said, it's been a while. B.D.(before documentation)

I got to the point that I was considering using sheet metal screws through the bottom plate to hold the filters in place. Didn't do it, decided to go another way with them and just sold them.


Both types were cumbersome to deal with if you needed a lot of access to the carbs. Often with Webers, there is a hot street jetting and then there is the "track jetting". You need easy access to the jetting and sometimes the throttle linkages.

The K&N's on my Webers right now are oiled and are not red. I just looked and it is K&N oil.
That's not an issue for me at all though. Just a point of interest.


It is a decision, difficult at times to make whether or not to run open stacks or not?
With Webers there is such a difference that the often the compromise is just to run screens.
That really isn't a noticeable difference to me. Screens on the Webers is a very reasonable compromise to me.



I never really thought about the reverse engineering issue, that's more for manufacturers vs. users, but I suppose that anyone with a mill, better with a cnc mill can make these out of billet and they all pretty much look the same?

It isn't exactly like I just read about this on the internet. Having said that though there are and have been a bunch of variations and I never had them all.



Risk is a decision every individual must make for themselves?

Mike do you wear your raincoat and galoshes when you drive? Ever have a Pantera heater hose go on you? Wear the insulated ones.



This way was simpler for me. These are K&N's and they are glued to the velocity stacks.
When I want to go on the track I just change the stacks to open with screens. See below v



These are oiled and they aren't red. Maybe a little pink if you look a certain way at them.

My cell phone camera didn't pick that up but it's not as sensitive to that as the Sony A1 is?

Oh, and yes, these filters are very noticeably restrictive compared to the screens.

The filters keep out dirt, not water though. The screens keep out squirrels, chipmunks and some larger animals that tried. No bats though. Not yet?


These filters are minimally in the way of servicing the carbs under any conditions. Just remove the velocity stacks which just entails removing the two nuts and clips.

I would also point out that SOME of these engineering decisions are dominated by aesthetics rather than function. Probably the trick is knowing which to let dictate the results?

Thanks for the tips guys. I found one good element, and I can use the other two to fab together another proper fitting one for the other side, so I'm set!

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:


Best,
K

Sound advice Kelly, thanks. Experience counts alot and that is what we are trying to share also. I did have a set sourced through Hall that used a one piece filter. Pretty sure there were K&N markings on them. No markings on the tops and bottoms.

I had a set of the four chrome K&N filters also. Sod those too.

Like you said, it's been a while. B.D.(before documentation)

I got to the point that I was considering using sheet metal screws through the bottom plate to hold the filters in place. Didn't do it, decided to go another way with them and just sold them.

The K&N's on my Webers right now are oiled and are not red. I just looked and it is K&N oil.
That's not an issue for me at all though. Just a point of interest.


It is a decision, difficult at times to make whether or not to run open stacks or not?
With Webers there is such a difference that the compromise is just to run screens often.
That really isn't a noticeable difference to me. Screens on the Webers is a very reasonable compromise to me.



I never really thought about the reverse engineering issue, that's more for manufacturers vs. users, but I suppose that anyone with a mill, better with a cnc mill can make these out of billet and they all pretty much look the same?

It isn't exactly like I just read about this on the internet. Having said that though there are and have been a bunch of variations and I never had them all.



Risk is a decision every individual must make for themselves?

Mike do you wear your raincoat and galoshes when you drive? Ever have a Pantera heater hose go on you? Wear the insulated ones.

Hello Doug; When you mention..."That really isn't a noticeable difference to me".

What are you referring to?

I bring up this quote because in an earlier post you mentioned that utilizing air cleaners on your weber induction system results in a 80-100hp decrease...Mark

Thanks,

Roger mentioned that and warned me about it, and said do not touch or undo that brace.

During the whole 2 or so hours of driving enjoyment I've had with the car so far, the idle was just OK. It was sticky, took a blip to get it to drop sometimes. After removing the distributor, and seeing how sticky the advance system was, I think that is what was causing that. We'll see, because there's a spanking new distributor going in.

Everything from this point on about this car is going to be done right.

I will not run this car without air cleaners.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Mike, as I remember your intake (from Dennis Quella's Pantera Performance), it is a two-piece unit that bolts individually on each cylinder head, with a separate valley cover. Roger initially had problems holding a consistent idle speed, until he found that his aluminum heads and intakes were expanding enough with heat to pull on the cross-link attaching the right throttle body to the main cable. The fix was the custom steel center brace that sufficiently tied the two banks together so heat expansion would not pull on the right side throttles. So even if the brace is interfering with the custom air cleaners, do not remove it or the idle speed will creep from 900 to 1300 rpms as the engine gets warm. The spacing within each intake section is 'std' 48IDA Weber.

Mike,

Mark told me you do have have the early 13" OD .75" cross section elements for the early Quella filter assemblies. There are fewer std .75" K&N filters to choose from than the .875 cross section. I sent Mark a pdf file from a custom B302 filter and induction system I put together some time ago. He cut a couple copies the lid and base for me. The file has the filter element splicing procedure that I've found most reliable. -Good luck.

Best,
K

Mark,

Screens you don't feel. Air cleaners you do. (this picture is not my carb and screens but you get the idea). I don't think you can get anything through these that would hurt the engine?

These are about the least restrictive you can make or find yet have a 20% area loss.(maybe more, I haven't looked at that chart in quite a while)

What flow loss that translates into, don't know?

Let the PE's here duke that out. I'm not.

What's good about this screen though is it is not fine enough to risk a collapse like the oil pump screen COULD.

I'm not being too obtuse now am I? Wouldn't want to get thrown into "solitary". (That wasn't "solidary" was It?)

OH! @ Mike TS, that sensor you are referring to is most likely an air temperature sensor. The computer likes to know what the air temperature is of what the engine is taking in. That's it I believe?

Oh, OK thanks.

I didn't know what that sensor was for. I know on my newer Subaru, it had MAF, and MAP, and knock sensors, everything had a sensor.

I speak 1972 much better.

Can't wait to get Snow White running!

I can probably finish things myself, but I'd rather have supervision for the distributor install and coolant fill.

I've struggled with things for hours by myself, and then when I have a helper, they get done in minutes.

Once I get to where I can take things and finish the car by myself, it'll be on the road in no time.

Then I'm going to form a relationship with a shop Chuck recommended that works on our cars.

I just hope to not have too many more situations that take the car completely out of action, that's where I get stuck.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Mark,

Screens you don't feel. Air cleaners you do.

These are about the least restrictive you can make or find yet have a 20% area loss.

What flow loss that translates into, don't know?

Let the PE's here duke that out. I'm not.

What's good about this screen though is it is not fine enough to risk a collapse like the oil pump screen COULD.

I'm not being too obtuse now am I? Wouldn't want to get thrown into "solitary". (That wasn't "solidary" was It?)

OH! @ Mike TS, that sensor you are referring to is most likely an air temperature sensor. The computer likes to know what the air temperature is of what the engine is taking in. That's it I believe?

Would 8 separate foam air cleaners, (1 per velocity stack) be more restrictive than the 2" K&N setup I have now?

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Would 8 separate foam air cleaners, (1 per velocity stack) be more restrictive than the 2" K&N setup I have now?

The short answer is, I don't know.

It is probably more involved than just comparing surface areas of the two setups, presuming that the restrictions of the filter materials themselves are equal?

It's like that question asked by JFB. Are the flows through one 12" pipe the same as the flow through 12 1" pipes?

My guess would be that for our intents and purposes, they are close enough, given equal surface areas, but do not know for sure?

As Kelley remarked, "it's been awhile", but I seem to remember attempting to calculate the surface areas of both of the setups I was trying.

I don't remember the results.


Kelly would probably be the guy to ask since he worked so much on this subject as part of his induction project?

My preference is simply to run on open stacks, then the best compromise for that is the screens.

NO MATTER what anyone does here though, remember "we" (all of us) are attempting to run what not so long ago was considered to be RACE ONLY components.

It isn't just you Mike, it's me too AND a bunch of other people that are just too stubborn to leave it go.

I don't know if you have noticed that as a common denominator here? I have.

Sometimes our individual competativenesses even makes us get on each other? It's kind of a by product of the combination I think?

It's like having a bunch of Navy Seals together. Eventually there will be something happening?

I "Personally" would consider/evaluate the area with which the induction system draws in air a relatively "particle free area", and as such would have NO problem just utilizing screens on top of the velocity stacks as per Doug's illustration.

It's NOT like you're either Bo or Luke Hazard driving the General Lee on some DUSTY backroads moonshine dirt top!

DAMN!!!...now I'm thinking about Daisy Duke!!!!..I'll be away from the computer for about an hour!!!..Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
I "Personally" would consider/evaluate the area with which the induction system draws in air a relatively "particle free area", and as such would have NO problem just utilizing screens on top of the velocity stacks as per Doug's illustration.

It's NOT like you're either Bo or Luke Hazard driving the General Lee on some DUSTY backroads moonshine dirt top!

DAMN!!!...now I'm thinking about Daisy Duke!!!!..I'll be away from the computer for about an hour!!!..Mark

Daisy Duke? Huh? Look at the curves on those screens? Huh? I'll be back in a while.

Well here's where I'll be driving my Pantera, and there does seem to be quite a bit of dirt flying around, so I think it's safer to run air cleaners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3Vqc-wq_4

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
I "Personally" would consider/evaluate the area with which the induction system draws in air a relatively "particle free area", and as such would have NO problem just utilizing screens on top of the velocity stacks as per Doug's illustration.

It's NOT like you're either Bo or Luke Hazard driving the General Lee on some DUSTY backroads moonshine dirt top!

DAMN!!!...now I'm thinking about Daisy Duke!!!!..I'll be away from the computer for about an hour!!!..Mark

Daisy Duke? Huh? Look at the curves on those screens? Huh? I'll be back in a while.

Interesting fact about the Dukes of Hazard, Daisy Duke was the oldest actor on the show except for gramps. And on Giligans's island, Giligan was the oldest actor in that cast except for the Howells.

Back on topic, as long as my air cleaners can keep the size chucks of stuff flying around in the vid I just linked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3Vqc-wq_4 I will be running air cleaners on my car.

Mike!...Mike!!...Mike!!!...I HOPE you drive BETTER than your grasp of Dukes of Hazzard trivia.

Do you REALLY think that "Boss Hogg" is YOUNGER than "Daisy Duke"????!!!!....

Or Sheriff Coltrane???!!!..


Or Luke Duke???!!!...


Catherine Bach
Actress | Soundtrack
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Catherine Bach was born on March 1, 1954 in Warren, Ohio, USA as Catherine Bachman. She is an actress, known for The Dukes of Hazzard (1979), Thunderbolt and Lightfoot (1974) and African Skies (1992). She was previously married to Peter Lopez and David Shaw. See full bio »
Born: Catherine Bachman
March 1, 1954 in Warren, Ohio, USA


Sorrell Booke (1930–1994) "Boss Hoog"
Actor | Director
Sorrell Booke was born in Buffalo, New York in 1930, the son of a local physician. He found his calling early in life, like most actors, when his family encouraged him to entertain relatives by doing impressions and telling jokes. He went on to study at Yale and Columbia University, and mastered five languages. During the Korean War, Booke worked ... See full bio »
Born: January 4, 1930 in Buffalo, New York, USA
Died: February 11, 1994 (age 64) in Sherman Oaks, California, USA


Sheriff Coltrane

James Best (I)
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American character actor and teacher. Born Jules Guy in Powderly, Kentucky, on July 26, 1926, he was orphaned at three and adopted by Armen and Essa Best, who re-named him James K. Best and raised him in Corydon, Indiana. Following high school he worked briefly as a metalworker before joining the Army during World War II in July 1944. The majority... See full bio »
Born: Jules Franklin Guy
July 26, 1926 in Powderly, Kentucky, USA


Luke Duke...


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Tom Wopat
Actor | Soundtrack | Director
He'll forever be remembered as strapping, good ol' boy Luke Duke, the virile, blue-eyed, dark-haired, plaid-shirted rascal (equally good-looking John Schneider was the strapping, plaid-shirted blond cousin) on the rough-and-tumble bucolic 80s series The Dukes of Hazzard (1979). Where others may have fallen by the TV wayside, however, after the ... See full bio »
Born: Thomas Steven Wopat
September 9, 1951 in Lodi, Wisconsin, USA

Mike's grade on Dukes of Hazzard trivia F++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++...Mark

Tough crowd Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Interesting fact about the Dukes of Hazard, Daisy Duke was the oldest actor on the show except for gramps. And on Giligans's island, Giligan was the oldest actor in that cast except for the Howells.

Back on topic, as long as my air cleaners can keep the size chucks of stuff flying around in the vid I just linked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3Vqc-wq_4 I will be running air cleaners on my car.

Mike!...Mike!!...Mike!!!....FIRST your knowledge of Dukes of Hazzards...STINKS!!!...

NOW!!!...your grasp of Gillian's Island trivia is as tenuous as a 1 year old holding a snow cone!!!...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057751/fullcredits/

Gillian was born 1935

The Skipper was born 1921
The Professor was born 1924
Ginger was born 1934
Mary Ann was born 1939
The Howells were born 500 BC

In other breaking news....Mike has just Reported that Ellen DeGeneres has married Brad Pitt!!!...Mark

MTS threads have wondered so much that I have forgotten where Bosswrench posted about the throttle linkage, the split manifold and the metal brace so let me interject this here?

First, I don't get why there would be this kind of thermal expansion that would open the throttles? First time I've heard of that?

All I can say is, my linkage doesn't do that BUT that's not what I want to say here.



The throttle linkage in a Pantera with multiple carburetion, and therefore IRFI, should have a VERY light feel to it and work VERY free and easy.

In fact when you have it right with Webers, it will work with just the return springs built into those carbs much lighter than the original 4v Motorcraft carb does.

Mine is so light it feels spooky. Almost like it isn't connected at all?

MTS commented that his hangs up.



In the past there has been discussion here involving the Pantera throttle cable. Apparently some have run into difficulty with it to the point of verbally trashing it and physically as well?

This business of having to "blip" the throttle to idle the engine down is a symptom of at least the Pantera cable not operating correctly.



What I found on my setup is that if you examine the way the throttle cable is routed, when you switch over to the "Weber" manifold (and probably most of it's variants) that the original cable isn't flexible enough to make the turn and go under the distributor to get to the universal throttle wheel, and it NEEDS TO BE. Using the Weber manifold with the center linkage tower, there is no other way to make that linkage work or the cable to line up with it unless it goes under the distributor.

What determines that is the type of linkage you use to connect the throttle to the left and right banks. If you route the cable to a side bracket like you might on a Mustang, you still will have the issue of lack of flexibility of the throttle cable because of the internal tube. The turn up over the valve cover would in fact be more severe so most "techs" have decided to use the under the distributor routing.

IF you disassemble that cable and remove the internal 3/8" steel tube on the carburetor end (looks like a 3/8" steel fuel line) reassemble it, then the cable will not bind from kinks and/or strange curves that you have attempted to put into it for routing purposes.

The entire cable will work lightly and freely at that point, which you will feel with your foot at the accelerator pedal AND the installed return spring in it will easily operate all of those carburetors, returning them effortlessly to the stop screw settings that are installed on the carbs OR THROTTLE BODIES.

The additional springs that you see on my setup (Moroso) are there for safety reasons as well as satisfying race track requirements of having a second return spring on the throttle. They aren't necessary to close the throttles at all.

They are also placed there so that the track tech inspectors can easily see them. Concealing them from view in any way is not a good idea for this reason alone.



I am also suspecting that this, the throttle cable issue, is involved in the original issues with "thermal expansion" on this particular throttle set-up. It may just be that the center tower on the original Pantera Weber manifold also eliminates that expansion issue since it creates enough play to eliminate a single rod from left to right from expanding? Maybe the one piece manifold casting also braces the engine from the valley contracting with individual left and right manifolds?



Apparently from what I am seeing this throttle cable business (and fix) is a well kept secret?

In fact, I was asked about this by another Pantera "tech" that was working on a Quella built fuel injection system just like this MTS one. It had similar problems of returning to idle. He was blaming the CPU for the issue. He changed from a Haltec to a Fast, constructed and installed a vacuum "manifold" system, built a new wiring harness and installed a pressure sensor in that vacuum manifold to fix it but I think it is mechanical, not electronic. An expensive fix for a simple problem with a simple solution.

He says it runs better now, but still not right. Sure. He didn't fix the throttle cable issue. Stubborn.



So I thought at this point, this comment was appropriate to the issue at hand?



Mike, while everything is open, check this routing of the throttle cable. You will see it from inside of the cabin with the engine cover off. You need to disconnect the throttle cable from the rest of the linkage and test it for freedom of travel.

If that cable IS hanging, there will be no doubt. You will feel it right there.

I stand before you all humbly corrected. Those were things told to me in conversations and I took the facts as true, never much thought about the fact again, but yeah, I was wrong on every point.

HEY! Not everyone can get it ALL wrong ALL at once! I should be applauded for accomplishing such a feat.

Back on topic,

My throttle cable issue is due to binding because of the routing of the cable. It looks like instead of removing the firewall and running the cable straight, they decided to go with a couple sharp bends that has the cable bending down under the firewall. It probably felt OK when new, but I used to own a bicycle shop to 10 years, I know that cables forced into bends quickly wear through the nylon liners and become draggy and sticky, just as mine is feeling.

Just another of the 1000 things I'm addressing on this car.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Back on topic,

My throttle cable issue is due to binding because of the routing of the cable. It looks like instead of removing the firewall and running the cable straight, they decided to go with a couple sharp bends that has the cable bending down under the firewall. It probably felt OK when new, but I used to own a bicycle shop to 10 years, I know that cables forced into bends quickly wear through the nylon liners and become draggy and sticky, just as mine is feeling.

Just another of the 1000 things I'm addressing on this car.

Oooy! You are not listening! The binding in the Pantera throttle cable is at the carburetor end within the steel tube liner.

You MUST remove that.

"Those that refuse from learn by history are doomed to repeat it!" - Winston Churchill.

Ping! The balls in your court.

In checking the throttle cable however, it does always return to full idle position. I think the idle issues I was having were due to the advance mechanism being stuck on the old distributor.

I can crank on it to full advance, and it sticks there, crank it back to "no advance", and it sticks there.

A new throttle cable, and new front decklid cable are a couple of things that are first on the list.

I think after my engine revved high enough to get the distributor to reach full advance, it just stuck there, until I blipped the throttle and got the advance to unstick and drop to it's idle timing position.

First things first.

I'm going to get the engine running, get the car so I can drive it, then work on fine tuning all the little things that are needed.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
In checking the throttle cable however, it does always return to full idle position. I think the idle issues I was having were due to the advance mechanism being stuck on the old distributor.

I can crank on it to full advance, and it sticks there, crank it back to "no advance", and it sticks there.

A new throttle cable, and new front decklid cable are a couple of things that are first on the list.

I think after my engine revved high enough to get the distributor to reach full advance, it just stuck there, until I blipped the throttle and got the advance to unstick and drop to it's idle timing position.

First things first.

I'm going to get the engine running, get the car so I can drive it, then work on fine tuning all the little things that are needed.

It's not running YET?

Oh Man! I am SO CLOSE!

I've been waiting for help with some of the more technical stuff, but I tackled that today, so we are close, VERY close.

This thread is running low on pictures. It needs to be stimulated.

...I forgot what I was thinking? Don't say you'd give her a ride anyday, 'cause the only way she'd get in YOUR car is if SHE was drivin'.