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anyone have vintage engine compartment photos to share?

panteradougpanteradougMember
Found these pics of 289 GT40 heads that match the C6OA intake manifold. That combination was what was delivered on the '67 T/A Mustang coupes. 27 of those were made.

These mated to Webers on the GT40 Shelby team cars. I think there were only three of those and they wound up on at least one of the Daytonna Coupes?

The heads were serial numbered to the engine since those were all built as comp engines in Shelby's race shop. It's thought that there were only 50 sets made.

Needless to say they are very difficult to find now and if you do, very expensive. I saw only one set for sale and that was for $3500 firm.

I think this set was ported by Valley Head Service and was sold to an independent racer running a street 65 GT350 in competition in the SE district as just heads. I have his name here somewhere but it isn't important to this post to post it here.

They are very "similar" to 69-70 351w heads. I'm sure they have unique features like no other but this is the best I can do.

For sure you can't port the exhausts on a 351w to this size? The intakes are similar though.

These aren't mine. Pictures came from Randy Gillis.

I did have a set of C6FE aluminum BB heads. Those got traded away.

Thought everyone would be interested in seeing these?

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panteradougpanteradougMember
another shot...

Don't know the size of the valves but the exhausts look larger then my 1.60's. There is a listing that says the exhausts are 1.625 and the intakes 1.875.

Intakes don't look like they could be 1.94's but 1.94's definitely and 2.02 sometimes could be fit into a J head?

Some production heads you can fit 2.02's in, others you can't. It all depends on how accurately centered the valve guides are.

You can see in this shot that the valves almost touch. That means if the valve guide centers are off .010, they won't fit.

Most race head builders will tell you this before you start.

You can see how little space is left between the intake and the exhaust valves here. You have to measure that with a feeler gauge. Might be something like .020 for safety? I forget the dimension?

For production reasons there wasn't that much importance for holding the centers to blue print specifications.

The guides in my J heads were off enough that the largest intake valve that would fit with the 1.60 exhaust was the 1.94. Still very noticeable over the stock 1.78 and even the 1.875 in the 351w head.

The J head is a very good CORE to rework for bigger valves and ports. Some have bad mouthed it pretty severely but personally I consider those people very uneducated on the subject.

They are merely spreading misinformation.

Incidentally the 1.875 was referred to as the GT40 intake valve for a long time?

These GT40 heads were probably held to those blue print specs?

With 2.02's you get shrouding from the combustion chamber walls so their value starts to get questionable anyway?

If you look at the intake valve, look at the edge of the combustion chamber. It has been machined back to reduce the shrouding of the valve when it is open.

This would make one heck of a combination in a 'goose right Steve? I think you would need better headers though?

1-3/4" primaries if not more?

What I find ironic is that Ford re-introduced the name, GT40, to the '90s run of 5.0 heads.

People actually think they are these or that they are even in the same ball park? I suppose that is just marketing?

Sorry to have taken this thread off of topic. Hope the trip was worth it? Roll Eyes

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mangustamangustaMember
The 351W heads are stricken with the same puny exhaust ports of all of the small block heads of the day. The good thing is, that they had the same exhaust ports of the day! They responded very well to a die grinder!

My goose supposedly came to the third owner with a 351W in it....as #2 had blown up the 302 somehow.... he couldn't recall the exact details, but he remembered that it had a 351W when he sold it. Can't find #3 yet, but #4 got it with the ill-fitting Boss.....

From the looks, of the C8FE heads, I would think that the 351W castings could be taken very close to that size shown. The ports in my other 69-351W are very near that size....matching a set of old Cragar headers I have somewhere! Switched to shorties and had to "round" out the ports a bit more....! LOTS of meat in the 351W heads... ...stop when you hit water!!! Smiler Not much to hit grinding around the sides and top, just stay out of the water jacket on that bottom area of the lower curve into the valve pocket area. "Smooth and blend..." Don't necessarily make it bigger everywhere.....

If you can find a set of the original aftermarket headers that Hall sold back when, they have the larger tubes in them. The originals were very necked down and restrictive....not to mention made of tin foil it would seem. The standard 302 heads would respond very well to gasket matching to the new headers. Seems the original headers were made to match the Ford ports as cast! There were some odd openings in those headers that I looked at!
panteradougpanteradougMember
The J heads are nice and thick on the exhaust ports.

The casting number on the GT40 heads is C6FE. I know it looks like an 8, but there is no such thing.



I am sorry to say that I only document my projects recently since I got the Sony SLR. I don't have pictures of my heads to show you.

What I did was match the exhaust ports to Mr.Gasket exhaust header gaskets and blend back into the port. The pockets above the valves are enlarged, the exhaust bump is taken out and the valve guides are cut down and blended back.

I did cc them before and after and without my notes in front of me want to say that they were 80cc's stock and 115 finished.

Both intake and exhaust are a very significant improvement over the original castings.

I'd like to say that they look like these GT40 exhausts but that might be wishful thinking?

I did cc both the intakes and exhausts. Those numbers are in my notes. The intakes wound up at 210cc's.



The J intake ports need a little gasket matching at the edge.

Both pockets need work in the bowls. Similar to what the racers do to the Boss heads. The volume of the J heads is too small at that point.

The Windsor heads, all of them, are like the SB Chevy heads in the sense that race flow on them is in the area of 250 on the intakes and 120 on the exhausts. Getting near that created a lot of iron dust from the die grinder on my workbench.



To go larger on any small block heads, you are wasting your time unless you add cubic inches.

I think the 302TP's are a good example of that?

When the engine was still a 302, I ran a set of worked '69 351w heads. They were shaved .020.

Very disappointing. Saw a hp loss across the rpm range.



331's work really really well at high rpm. Boss 302 heads like the combination.

347's do very very well too, but are not really 8000 rpm engines. Not for very long anyway? What you build all depends on how you want to drive it?


I haven't seen Mangusta headers listed by anyone in a long time. Chances are it would be the Byers Bros who would make them for you. I'm pretty sure they have the jigs for them?

I'm told that Wilkinson, Hall and PrecisonProformance are all down the street from each other.

I'd start with Precision first for headers, even if I had to wait for them to build them for me. They, I believe, are the source to all of the other vendors headers?

If you install 1.60 exhausts, you need 1-3/4" od tubes.
Last edited by panteradoug
V vyprgt2Member
This thread has been great and has helped guide me (and probably others) in Goose restoration- many thanks to all

Another area I have questions about- the underside...

how much undercoating was on the cars originally? A little, lots, none? Anybody have a photo or two of an undercarriage that is pretty original?

Also, was the oil pan standard late '60s Ford?
panteradougpanteradougMember
It's a plain Jane SB oil pan. The J code pan is the same as the 289.

The Boss 302 pan will fit as will the Boss 302 windage tray. That isn't a bad idea if you want it to look stock BUT if you go to the Aviaid home page and look through the Ford oil pans you will note that they have an oil pan that they specially built for the Cobra Daytona Coupe.

This is a pan very similar to what you would build for a Pantera or a Mangusta for increased oil capacity BUT it is only 6.5" deep instead of the standard, normal 7.5" deep.

They did this because the Shelby team lowered the Coupes engine 1" in the Cobra chassis. That made the stock depth oil pan too low for ground clearance so they compensated with a shallower oil pan.

Considering the Mangusta's issue with low ground clearance, if you were going to do an oil pan, or more correctly if I was, I'd put that oil pan in the car.

As far as undercoating goes, both the Pantera and the Mangusta had very thick coatings of it from the factory.`

This picture of the undercoating was posted earlier in the thread. It looks thick to me?

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deniscdeniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
FWIW the "other" aftermarket oil pans have a wider bottom that will not fit within the Mangusta rails. Steve has collaborated with Aviaid and they have an aftermarket design oil pan for a Mangusta (http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/shopping_cart/productsearch.cgi?storeid=*0e43a4691f70120f62)

******NOTE: I want to defer people from using my Aviaid pan....as I designed it BEFORE I figured out that my engine had been raised about 3/4" to fit the Boss302 exhaust ports better....

I REDID A NEW 6qt fully baffled Pan (Aviaid wouldn't build it), which you can get from ARMONDO Racing pans in TX. It is 6" deep,or so, has built in windage tray, two drains, oil temp sender boss and is full length with relief for starter! Steve
I now return you to the original post.....

Just remember if you have a pan that is shorter then the bell housing, then a road hazard may impact the bell housing instead of being deflected by the pan first.


FWIW ; I have seen much thicker undecoating on some Panteras than on Mangustas
Last edited by mangusta
panteradougpanteradougMember
I think that the space between the bell and the pan now creates a notch.

A longer pan with a skidplate and a bridge to the bell seems most logical to me.

It may just be that the space/notch works out to be where the lowest travel of the chassis occurs.

I'd vote for the skidplate/bridge and maybe the lower pan.

I never suggested substituting an Aviaid pan from another car as a solution. I was merely pointing out some of the solutions others have taken and some could work on the 'ggose.

The external dimensions of the Boss 302 pan are the same as the 302 oil pan and it has additional internal baffling. It would be an easy installation and look stock.

I am not a victim of the "not invented here" syndrome. I readily admit that I "adopt" the best ideas of others to the application. Big Grin

As far as the undercoating on the Panteras goes, some have much more than others do. To me the intent of the concept on both cars is the same.

The word in Italian that describes it best is abodanza. At least that's how it's pronounced. It simply means a lot, or an abundant amount. Just like the toppings on Mama Celeste's pizza!

Hey, I can't spell in English either. Roll Eyes
Last edited by panteradoug
mangustamangustaMember
PD,
The original headers I picked up appear to have been finished in rust...... well finished.....probably was originally some sort of high temp silver....

I had my new ones coated by the place in Fresno, Capps? Used the higher temp grey, which is darker than the normal silver. (See my "oops" post where I was replacing my engine for some shots.

I also had a 6" deep full length pan (6 qt) made up (not by Aviaid) when I put my engine back down to stock height. Aviaid built me a 7" deep pan (9-10qt)...but that was before I discovered my engine mounts were raised an inch to gain clearance to install the Boss 302!!! UGH! If anyone can run a 7" deep full length, fully baffled pan, I'll make them a great deal!

Steve
panteradougpanteradougMember
Is there an issue running a 7" full length pan in the Mangusta? Some seem to think there would be, especially with a 6" pan?

The mention of the 6" Daytonna Coupe pan was only recently discovered by me on the Aviaid web page.

Is the Cobra pan full length or 3/4? Hum? I have to look.

It may have been mentioned in the discussions of the details of the original Coupes by Kopec but if it was, it had no significance to me until I read this thread.

The low clearance issue I remember from the original road test articles of the car. One of the magazines must have bottomed out on it when they tested the car and the others picked up on it.

I seem to remember reading something about the car having a skid plate.

I don't remember there being an issue with the starter and an extended pan but I never had anything like a race Cobra that would have used one. Just T pans in Mustangs.

Personally I don't think a Boss 302 is the way to go either with that car.

I think a stroker kit is light years better in the original block and if anything maybe period "correct" 69 351w heads on the original block?

Better headers would seem to be in order too?
Last edited by panteradoug
mangustamangustaMember
PD,

There isn't an issue with the 7" pan unless you like hitting everything on the road.... Stock pan is 7" deep and most original pans I have seen are mashed! One guy reported after straightening out is pan, that he ended up loosening up the drain plug several times by just touching it to the road or stuff....

What also happens is a full length pan "traps" the starter in the car. My new pan has a notch for the starter to drop out of... Not a big deal as the pans drop out so easy...just a minor PITA! Learning through revisions....!!

You are correct, the Boss 302 is not a good choice. If it fit the chassis, no problem....but it really doesn't. A Cleveland would fit better due to the higher position of the heads and exhaust outlets!

The stroker idea is much better suited to the car and yes, better headers go without saying!

I am super happy with my new 331 combo!!!!

Steve
mangustamangustaMember
PD,

Aviaid wouldn't make me one......with no technical explanation. SO I had someone else do the pan for me. 6" deep, full length, with starter notch, front and rear drains, and an oil temp bung. Holds 6qts to the bottom of the windage baffle. Works like a champ! I'm not really racing, so should never really push it to the limits!!!

Steve
mangustamangustaMember
DP,

I think the Daytona pan would fit, however, getting your oil filter down past the bulge at the bottom would be a bugger!!! It is tight with a straight pan!

The "other" pan #55366, that they show for a Mangusta is a 6.5" deep pan, and is not the custom one that they built for me. They shortened the pan length to 15" and decreased the depth by 1/2" so it would be better than my pan by the 1/2" and probably still hold 6qts.


Ciao!
Steve
panteradougpanteradougMember
OK, I see the Cobra pan has side tanks that won't fit the Mangusta.

They are showing the 366 Mangusta pan as 7.5 deep.

Do you have a picture of the pan you had built?

I went with dual remote oil filters on my Pantera, Aviaid "Pantera" pan.

I suppose the first time I need to get into the bottom of the engine I'll go with the removable cross member via the "sawsall" express route?

The filters are now on the passenger side hanging off of the large chassis rail. Much easier and cleaner to deal with there than the stock location. The plumbing ties into an oil cooler mounted to the front rear splash shield there too.

The oiling accessories on both of these cars are an expensive non-essential to strictly a street driven car. People didn't think much about oiling back then. This is a relatively recent phenomena.

LOTS of "Aeroquip" on this car.
Last edited by panteradoug
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Slightly off-subject, the '69 Mangusta Larry Stock is re-restoring had more unneeded work this week. Someone undercoated the car's bottom- EVERYTHING! There was a coat of undercoating on the uprights, the brake calipers and shocks, as well as wiring, e-brake cables, etc. He had to disassemble everything and media-blast the slop off, then solvent-clean. The rear shocks were odd looking adjustable coil-overs and we couldn't figure out what brand.... until I chipped enough 1/8" thick undercoating off one area with a jack-knife to read the old label- Monroe-Matic! Anyone here old enough to remember chromed Monroe adjustable shocks?

On another subject, I spent considerable time resarching Swiss owner Heiko Ostmann's yellow/black Euro-racing Mangusta. It appears in all race reports as a 1967 which is rare enough to start me sniffing around. I found that the vintage racing class he ran in is for '67-'71 cars. But his serial number is reported to be 8MA-1052, which makes it a 1970. Still legal for the class, so dunno where the '67' description came from (if the s.n is correct). He ran 5 international endurance races in 2009 (winning the CSRG GT-1 Championship) and two in 2010, then switched to a sponsored vintage Aston Martin- occasionally, a Porsche Turbo. Only reported Mangusta damage was a broken right rear decklid latch (at Brands Hatch in England?), which at speed popped open and folded the whole assembly over to the center of the car! Caused his only DNF. Must have been messy to fix.
L leeaMember

(years later, but some other pictures of Stickers on '1046...) I've seen the air tire pressure on other cars, but on 1046 it was located not only on the glove box but also on the drivers door (8ma978 also has the tire pressure sticker on the door). I've seen one or two of these moved to the inside of the glove box.

  Previous owners had really preserved 1046 (esp, the disclaimer stickers on the bulkhead glass and on the windshield (I've only seen the bulkhead sticker on  '936, '1006, '1010, 1046), and have never seen another goose with the windshield sticker). The bulkhead sticker was signed "Alberto" on '1046. The date is not shown on '936, but is September 1969 on both '1006/1010 and '1046---I'd believe this was only when the stickers were prepared, I don't think its likely that '1046 was produced in the same month as '1006 (oh, wouldn't it be nice if someone who has the history of DeTomaso would publish it...).

There was not a sticker (such as repo'd by Hall) with warning/disclaimer on the lid to the brake reservoirs on 1046. My guess is that the vin plate (the big aluminum plate Mobil advertisement) started around the late 8ma700's and the sticker on the brake reservoir door came down.  

Given the length of preservation, I'd also be inclined to think this Mobil antifreeze decal (anticongelante) was original...

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  • bulkhead sticker 1046
  • mangusta tire pressure sticker
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L leeaMember

(just adding more old pictures of '1046...) Showing leather texture on dash and dash cover, as well as different gloss on dash cover. Leather grain is top grain, natural (not smooth, not pebbled). '1046 headliner had been replaced with black pad. 

The interior mirror looks so close to Lancia Fulvia series 1 with the stainless or chrome front trim...but is a bit longer and I haven't found another car that uses the same one yet. Note the position of the rivets to the imprint on the back (this pic is from '1076, I clearly haven't restored it yet!). Another close-but-not obsessively-right are the Sunvisors from Fulvia, the mounting points are just a bit different.. 

Of course the clock worked, and what a coincidence to be photographed at exactly 12:00...  

 Jack and jack strap detail, spare hold down shown. The jack was used on Ghibli, the clearest distinction between 'other' jacks is that second knotty nut on the opposite end of the drive; most commonly available jacks have only the 22mm drive nut but the screw on the far end doesn't hang out on the end. 

Not shown (but at least on a picture I saw of '1048) the jack strap is secured by a screw thru the carpet on the wheelwell. Note the roller buckle and metal retainer on the strap, same as on the tool roll. 

I suppose the hardest question we'll ever answer absolutely is the reason for the jack strap. We've all commonly seen the jack extension tied around the jack with the strap, and Steve has suggested that the tool kit should be here as well (no matter its always displayed in the front trunk, its pretty clear that driving a sports car with a 5 pound item banging around in the trunk would be a distraction...!).

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L leeaMember

Fuse box and relays; fuse box is same as Maserati, but w/their emblem removed. Relays are the Carello 22.900.000...red glop is probably later add. 

 Cooling fan blade and Lucas motor are same as Pantera...earlier Goose had the square Lucas used on Jag E-type. 

Small white fan in front and the rear condenser fan are shared with Maserati QP series I. Motor is on another thread, here apparently a motorcraft blower motor with an exposed shaft (likely a twin blower as on a Mustang heater, with one end cut off!). Bracket is all-thread. 

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  • fuse box and relays
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L leeaMember

Tool kit in 1046...USAG Vanadium Extra spanners (not, Not marked "Durcrom" and with sizes in square boxes at the ends). Earlier Goose had spark plug wrenches with moveable handles (as shown in the parts book), later seemed to have the fixed handle. Missing is the 'small' screwdriver kit, and probably an intruder replacement with yellow handle (though 1048 may have had a similar..?). 

Jack extension is pretty special, ~40cm long and note the sleeve. And I'll bet that Manual was original. Just (sniff) wonder where this entire kit was later lost...

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L leeaMember

Picture of the dash, no radio was installed and the hole still covered in leather. Heater knob is sourced from an Austin Mini--or more correctly, the entire heater boss is a modified Mini Innocenti series I box (modified for the intake to come via a 'chimney" from fresh air from the cowl vents instead of the rights side). The motor is not a Smiths, but a maker I can only identify as in Asti, Italy). The hamster wheel fan blade may be common with English Austin Mini or Rover.  

Hood mat decoration as used on the trunk on a Ghibli spider.  

Note the decorative pattern on the door gaskets. I'd have expected Ghia to use the same weatherstripping between Ghibli and Mangusta, but as I can tell the Goose used something common with Fiat 500 and others and Ghibli weatherstripping becomes the gasket around the rear wheels. 

Pedal box cover removed; owner spliced in local Fan relays. Brake reservoirs shared with VW beetle, I hear (and used on early Pantera). 

Spanish Ayacsa AC evaporator box is real wood ,million dollar question is still to understand what  pieces were shared with it contemporaneously but it looks like Alfa Spider basically used same Behr design for another 3 decades. 

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L leeaMember

Sneaking in '1074 pictures with details of paint lines, though the car was clearly topcoated at some time, I've seen the blacking across the bulkhead and latch areas before. These kinds of details are just too weird to be applied by anyone but the factory, esp when the bulkhead still has gasket and aged chrome-vinyl edging still in place...note, the area on the front interior edge of the door looks like it was applied with a brush. 

Battery pic affirms the booties.

fuel pump is of course a user add...but the undercoating texture,  cable clamping and routing here just must be factory.  

(Btw, I hate to waste storage by duplicating pictures that were posted on other threads...But hopefully more people see them on this thread...and also thank our kind hosts for what they give us on this Forum!)

 

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mangustamangustaMember

Lee,

What is that thing off to the side of the jack mount on the 1074 pic???

Regarding the smog valve canister date..... in the Mustang/Ford world the dates on these smog valves seem to have come in batches........and these "batch" dates can spread out widely across production.....where the cast iron and other parts tend to be much closer together.........so don't put too much into any of those dates......    Window and cast iron dates rule!!! 

Nice collection of stickers that I NEVER found anywhere on my car, except for the tin foil list of "don't haves"  on the reservoir cover!!!  Good stuff!

Those shiny grade 5 bolts holding the headlamp lever to the floor can't be original..... 

Steve

L leeaMember

Denis, so there is a paint daub? For years I assumed (well like the wheels that I've refinished with "won't yellow" clear before that started to instantly yellow) that the wheels on 1046 were refinished---until noticing last week the original valve stem on the CN72 as the spare...on a 12k mile car. So I'm curious about the paint daub (!) and location of the sticker (esp, were they as carefully applied at 180' from the valve stem as on the pictures of 8ma502) on your wheel. 

The exterior paint on that car was described as an 'old respray' sometime in the 90's on a Google search I found. But I am convinced the paint (if not the Italian pinstripe) was original. Its just impossible to hid a respray without replacing rubber gaskets.  Seats had been recovered for sure, I'll bet someone kept the shift knob as a souvenir and intelligent tweaks (esp, adding a redundant wire pull on the engine cover latches) were done by the previous loving owner. But Including things like the bulkhead sticker and tire stickers took real deliberation from someone(s) for 4 decades before my brother got the car. I only know the owner of the car before (Stuart from CO) and next owner  (in Atlanta, who had a 4-light red car and apparently traded them both on a Daytona a couple years later when you can see it on BAT). The last time I saw the car, it looked like this...pretty gorgeous. The wheels especially...

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L leeaMember

One more sticker that is fun---the DeTomaso Italian Agip sticker in Italian.  This one on a picture of an earlier Goose at Hymans (8ma798), a red-maroon 4 headlight US model (English gauges). The Diavia sticker was found by Johnny W, after trying unsuccessfully  to get someone in Ebay/Germany to ship a NOS drier with the sticker attached, I spent a rainy afternoon creating that one dimensionally. The other stickers are ones I have or have photographed...new to this process, the tire pressure sticker took a Lot of a few rainy days...! If anybody has physical access to the bulkhead or tire pressure stickers to provide real measurements, history will give thanks.

Endorsing AGIP might be in conflict with whatever endorsements DeT had with Mobil (as on most of our chassis plates). But there was instead a Shell plate on a few cars ('878 and '982). Go figure.

Oh, Steve, re: dates on the smog stuff---yeah, completely agree, all of this just is curious because it just emphasizes how non-linear the manufacturing process was. It seems there was a commitment and plan for the 400 cars, and parts were made and warehoused. At least one batch of motors was all made in the first 2 weeks in July, 1968, with intakes probably stamped in place at DeTomaso and then randomly put into cars. The bulkhead sticker is typed "September 1969" on this car---but so is the bulkhead sticker on 8ma1008 and September was probably only the date the sticker was made...But that means at least 1 1/2 years between when the smog canister was made and when '1046 was made. Obviously, "Just in Time" was not yet a 3 letter acronym in manufacturing...

Unfortunately for me in 2010 I had other things to worry about and didn't just get details of the motor carb, engine, and castings numbers from '1046. But I have reference points from 2 cars in the ~600 range and '1076 block/intake/heads that suggest a huge batch in that July '68 range...Lee

ps, adding the disclaimer that was used on earlier cars (and is repro'd by Hall) before the bulkhead/windshield sticker...)

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mangustamangustaMember

Lee,

Don't ya hate it when hindsight is better than the foresight?????

A buncha years back, I had unfettered access to car #508. About 3 miles from my house........I failed badly in taking advantage of this!      One day I did go look at the car, the owner had a number of the bits off of the car, special early jackshaft holder, and some others........CRS at the moment.....    I thought I had some pictures, but this was likely in the times of no digital camera yet..... or perhaps it was just no camera!!!    What I do recall is looking at the dates on a 289 HiPo engine! I believe that they were the latest dates that I had ever seen on such an engine, with either late 67 or early 68 casting dates.  They did all line up with the dates on the dual point distributor and the correct hipo carb which was nice to see in that no one had bodgered this thing up with bogus parts yet!

Now the previous owner called this a "67 Goose" but I tried to refute this with simple window dates all showing 1968 manufacturing marks.......  "well the body was made in 1967..." is all I got back......!

I was thinking about your date difference......from smog valve to date that 1046 would have been built.....certainly later than April 1968.....! ( I believe that #878 had April 69 window dates largely.)

DeTomaso did a lot of rework to fit the pumps/valves to the cars...new bracketry and hoses... I suspect that these parts were removed from the engines as received from Ford or were shipped separately.    ( I never found a large batch of stock Mustang smog pump brackets or water pump pulleys at the factory....doesn't mean they weren't in a dusty old corner....but DeTomaso wasn't fast to throw old parts away....(different story!)....)   It would not surprise me that a number of these pumps were stacked away to be installed later/as needed, OR not at all.  I am guessing that air pumps were not needed in Europe, and likely these cars received air port plugs in the heads instead of air injection rails......but I haven't had enough exposure to Euro cars to know for sure what was done here. (We need more feedback on air pumps from Europe!)    So to have an "older" pump/valve installed on a newer engine wouldn't be out of line......

I can't see DeT leaving an engine (or a partially assembled car) sitting around for a year and a half in light of the production difficulties at Ford's engine plant......   BUT, stranger things have likely happened, including restamping of serial numbers etc......!      The true tell, would be the dates on the rest of the engine parts (and windows!) to give us the real story.

I've always advocated owners documenting casting/production dates from the engines and components as well as any dates found stamped into the Girling front/rear brake calipers.    A giant spreadsheet of this info would go a LONG way to proving or formulating any theories as you suggest.        Just a bugger that we need to build it backwards.... and some dates are just plain hard to get at....!

If there are sequence numbers ie stamped into ZF or engine intake, that would be nice to see also, but I suspect these are more random and couldn't be used to suggest much other than perhaps a "batch".....if they happened to be stamped all at once ie upon receiving them vs sequentially assigned to chassis under production as they rolled off the line??

"Justa inna time-a" was likely more like "whatta we gotta thatta we can use-a!"

"Just get it outta the door!"

Ciao!

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Last edited by mangusta
N nateMember

Lee, thanks for all the great sticker images - - #1046 definitely had some amazing treatment down through the years, when other cars were taking a beating!!  Was hoping to provide dimensions for the bulkhead disclaimer sticker but after taking this shot from #1010 I realize the right edge of the sticker has been cut off.  Anyway, maybe not surprisingly the stated build date was "Sep 1969".

Here are a few other details from the AC evaporator assy.  One blower housing got the red warning label, in what appears to be a consistent position (on it's top, where it can't be seen - - included here for fun only!!)  What looks more random is whether that one housing was assembled on the left or right side of the blower motor.  As for the last images, I wonder how close the printed serial numbers (here, "520" from 8MA1010 and "780", an unknown leftover /spare from Roland in Germany) follow Mangusta production?!  Regards to all, Nate

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Last edited by nate
8ma12488ma1248Member
@leea posted:

(years later, but some other pictures of Stickers on '1046...) I've seen the air tire pressure on other cars, but on 1046 it was located not only on the glove box but also on the drivers door.  

  previous owners had really preserved 1046 (esp, the disclaimer stickers on the bulkhead glass and on the windshield (I've only seen the bulkhead sticker on two other cars, '936 and '1008), and have never seen another goose with the windshield sticker). The bulkhead sticker was signed "Alberto" on '1046. The date is not shown on '936, but is September 1969 on both '1008 and '1046---I'd believe this was only when the stickers were prepared, I don't think its likely that '1046 was produced in the same month as '1008 (oh, wouldn't it be nice if someone who has the history of DeTomaso would publish it...).

There was not a sticker (such as repo'd by Hall) with warning/disclaimer on the lid to the brake reservoirs on 1046. My guess is that the vin plate (the big aluminum plate Mobil advertisement) started around the late 8ma700's and the sticker on the brake reservoir door came down.  

Given the length of preservation, I'd also be inclined to think this Mobil antifreeze decal (anticongelante) was original...

Hello lee,

I was a little confused about your response on Ebay.
****
Subject: leeaisanut sent a message to De Tomaso Mangusta, Stickers for air filters (De Tomaso Mangusta Stickers) # 143744159640
By: leeaisanut Sent: 10/19/20 6:52 AM
****
Please,  don't be piss off :-)

I only wanted to ask in a friendly manner
what participation I can count on, or what the value of this could be.
I also spend a lot of time, which I certainly would not take into account. Only portion of external costs.
I will gladly rework the draft to come as close as possible to the original.

I keep you up to date.

Best regards

L leeaMember

I remember Peter Egan writing that the standard pay rate for back yard mechanics is 2 cents per hour. Man, did that Peter have a good gig, either that or he wasn't counting expenses. Anybody supplying parts for the Mangusta should be recognized for their charity...! 

If you have a chance, run to Ebay and see the air filter stickers Christian has made, and then look at the picture of the engine bay. Its one thing to have the artistic ability to make something new, its another to be able to make something that is original but looks like it should have always belonged on the car.

  If anybody has advice on how to turn artwork to print, I'd love to hear it! Hopefully after the tire pressure sticker, then the Diavia label, then the Ayacsa label, then the bulkhead sticker, then the Tecumseh HG500 label, and lastly the multi-colored "Vin" tag in the trunk--hopefully by then, I'll have a clue! Lee

mangustamangustaMember

You guys should post pictures here and not rely on eBay....they don't preserve anything but the memory of money parting from your hands......!  ))))

I couldn't find any stickers........but did find all sorts of air filter elements and nonsensical BS.....!!!  Stupid suggestion policies......(My opinion only.....)
Ciao!
Steve

mangustamangustaMember

OK, I'm perplexed.....   No where have I ever seen the HP version of the air cleaner decal prior...... doesn't mean that they don't exist....most air cleaner decals are probably dust on the side of the road somewhere.......

More cars seem to have nothing vs "with decals".....

I believe that the first pic is a car at the factory......

Second is the one that I believe Hall was selling a few years ago, perhaps they still are, but it "seemed" like the ones that I had seen on cars prior.  OR they were simply decorated along the way.  But is seems to be the same color/design as the first one......  PS: This is a "forged" air cleaner that I made up to fit my car with a slightly taller intake.....using an old 68-69 Ford truck version as a base to build on.

SO, where did the HP decal come from, ie when in production based upon SN's seen with this type.

I like it also!!!
factoryin1970aircleanerdone8

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Last edited by mangusta
L leeaMember

Steve, I put this sticker in the category of Nate's carb setup --things that weren't, but maybe should have been Some brilliantly talented people are piecing together their Mangustas, always fun to see...

  Yeah, Hall still has repros of the original air cleaner, I just bought my pair a few weeks ago---but just to have around, maybe the originals are Ok (good thing stickers can't rust ).

Somebody correct me, but I don't think the tire pressure sticker has been repro'd before. And every time I think of the crazy, obsessive owners who left these on their glove box, then I wonder where (when now I'm obsessed with putitng them back On) where that leaves me...Lee

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