Locating bits and pieces

EDIT ... SORRY, I didn't notice this was for the Mangusta

I can help with the brake light switch, but not on the wiper motor It is a pressure switch on the differential valve block

Actually, I found the brake light switch under the front end at a "T" fitting for the front brakes.

Still trying to find a good angle of attack for the wiper motor. Seems to me an interesting mechanism.

Thanks,

MH

quote:

what is the best way to get to the windshield wiper motor?

Located inside fender behind front right wheel, cover must be removed

after removing the metal cover the motor is fixed by a metal band by two screws.
Then to get the motor out you need to open the big screw (in picture) and then you can pull the "sift steal thread" out as the tubing is loose then. The wiper mechanism..(Wiper Wheel boxes in UK English, new once you can get from SVC UK) allows for pulling the thread out.

Matthias

My brake light switch is in the front of the car, left side at the T-block between the right and left brake lines. Follow the line from the front master cylinder. I think it is a VW Beetle part. I may have had to re-thread it.


DICK RUZZIN

SORRY,
That message is for the Mangusta!

Too early.
DICK RUZZIN

Looks something like this:
http://www.s-v-c.co.uk/product...stem--two-wheel-box/
or this:
https://www.carbuildersolution...windscreen-wiper-kit

anyone know the degree of the sweep or # of teeth?

God bless Al Gore for this Interweb thingy he invented, I'd be lost without it...

quote:

Originally posted by Mat_G:
after removing the metal cover the motor is fixed by a metal band by two screws.
Then to get the motor out you need to open the big screw (in picture) and then you can pull the "sift steal thread" out as the tubing is loose then. The wiper mechanism..(Wiper Wheel boxes in UK English, new once you can get from SVC UK) allows for pulling the thread out.

Matthias

M!ke I forgot the sweep and teeth (think 32)...BUT THEY KNOW!! just tell IT IS FOR PANTERA...the folks are experts..

Well I did order new WIPER Wheel Boxes as mine where bent only.
The Motor I did overhaul myself, is easy..you can do this..the only tricky thing is with the brushes when putting back the rotor. You use a thin thread to hold them back for install, then pull thread out!
..
if you provide me your e-mail will get you some pictures and comments on the HOW....
matthias_gruetzner@gmx.de
..this part is fun...
Matthias

I may give it a shot at rebuilding it, I'm usually good at that... thanks for the tip about using thread to keep the brushes back, sounds like good advice.

Is the Bundy tube lubricated with axle grease or white lithium or ???

My email is mhaney@3dtriad.com

The motor is a standard triumph TR6 motor as far as I know.


there is a huge price difference between the TR6 motor and the De Tomaso motor, even though its the same motor, this is what is known as "Marketing" I am told when I questioned one supplier!!!

Sure looks like it

https://www.bpnorthwest.com/wi...nEAQYAiABEgLFp_D_BwE

Looks like a standard 14W Lucas motor, these are available with different degree sweeps from about 85 through 135 degrees, so just check you are getting that correct or close.

Julian

isn't the sweep defined by the gear/crank? if so, reusing the old one might be an option if it's in good shape and the one you need isn't available...

Degrees of sweep from an old post by Julian.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...010090594#1010090594

Thanks Garth, to expand on that yes you can swap in the old crank, plus you can swap across the plastic gear and also swap the parking cam 180 degrees on the gear for parking wipers left or right side.

Actually if you are fooling with the brake light switch in the front on that T block I suggest you install an aftermarket brake proportioning valve. They have them now with included electric brake lighht switch. That eliminates the future problem of finding a switch that fits.

A proportioning valve is the single most important safety feature that you can add as a driving improvement. No more front brake lock-up and maximum stopping power.
DICK RUZZIN

Dick, is there a specific one (proportioning valve) that you can recommend? You're right, as long as I'm down there wrenching...

Does it proportion between left and right brakes? I thought proportioning valves were just to adjust bias between front and rear.

Thanks all for the help.

MH

Mike, only dirt-track sprint cars use side-to-side brake proportioning. Road cars always use front-to-back proportioning. Be sure to plumb any valve in such that it limits REAR brake pressures; Ford/DeTomaso plumbed our non-adjustable system in backwards for unknown reasons, and degrades Pantera brake performance. Wilwood sells a nice aluminum one, and the iron or brass Kelsey-Hayes valve was stock on '80s-up Corvettes. All need to be plumbed into your brake system, and it's desirable to NOT put the valve so its accessible to a driver. If you watch racing, you will certainly see several crashes per year from highly paid, professional drivers screwing around with their brake balance while underway. Recommended units are all knob-adjust valves; I do not recommend the lever-type-with-detents on street cars. Its too easy for someone to inadvertently bump it and radically change brake balance.

As for brake light switches, the common VW unit has the wrong thread to bolt into a DeTomaso. To simplify things, I recommend a full-electric switch that attaches to your brake pedal under the dash with no hydraulic plumbing at all. A cheap GM switch for an '80s Z-28 works well with the addition of a simple home-made bracket, and avoids the problem of most stock electro-hydraulic switches failing internally and leaking brake fluid. I had one fail that squirted fluid several feet out of the switch top. Not easy to diagnose the 'leak' on the other side of the engine compartment, and made quite a mess attacking paint...

That's what I thought... front and rear are plumbed separately and it appears that this "T" fitting only splits left & right on the front. so I wasn't sure how putting a proportioning valve there would balance front to rear...

I'm still learning my way around this beast.

I'm not sure all of the differences between the Mangusta's and the Pantera's. This "T" fitting and the hydraulic switch are in the front under the radiator. seems like if it blew it'd just shoot fluid on the ground.

I like the idea of the generic mechanical switch on the pedal, might go that route if a simpler solution doesn't fall into my lap...

Thanks,

MH

A proportioning valve will allow you to tune the front brake application pressure to the rear wheels, opposite to most rear wheel drive, front weight biased cars.
You can adjust it easily until your front wheels stop locking up before the rears.

It will effect both front wheels as it is ro be positioned before the T block that sends fluid to the right and left front wheels.

Look in any aftermarket performance catalog like Speedway or Jeggs. Look on the intrnet for a selection. They are inexpensive.
DICK RUZZIN

M!ke H.

I was going to write something like the following but found this. Vehicle dynamics are very complex with many variables. Low-speed, mid-speed and high-speed brake dynamics are all different. Spring rates, wheel rates, shocks, tire sizes and other things affect braking. Changing any of these things can affect how brake bias affects the overall braking. Please, if you don't understand this stuff (most people don't) ask a professional to help. When it comes to brakes there is no middle ground. Stock in good condition or consult an expert.

Below, not my words....
......Maximum braking performance occurs just before brake lockup, as a sliding tire has less grip than a rolling tire, thus tuning brake balance is all about controlling when the brakes lockup. As max performance obviously will occur when all 4 tires (& associated brakes) are doing the maximum work, an ideal brake bias is one that locks the front and rear brakes at the same time. In practice however, locking the rear tires typically result in a rapid spin, and locking all 4 wheels results in a slower spin, especially if the car is trail braking. For this reason, some “extra” front bias is normally used, because when the front brakes lockup the car remains stable (but you lose the ability to steer the car – it just goes straight) and this allows the driver time to recognize the brake lockup and reduce brake pressure to regain max braking performance and control. To tune the brake bias, pay particular attention to what happens during the braking phase and corner entry. Sudden spins in this zone often indicate rear brake lockup, while a bad push may indicate front brake lockup. Video replays or data acquisition systems can be useful in identifying this, but remember the inner (unloaded) tire will be the first to lock.

Increasing Front bias: Shown as a larger number, increasing brake bias to the front will put more braking force into the front tires. This will stabilize the car in braking zones and increase understeer at corner entry. The compromise is that with too much front bias the rear tires are being under‐utilized and overall braking efficiency will suffer. This can also cause rapid front tire wear due to front tire lockup, especially of the inside tire which is the first to lock up.

Reducing Front bias: This puts more braking on the rear tires, which, within limits, improves braking efficiency. Too much rear brake bias, though, hurts performance in two ways. First, it reduces overall braking efficiency. More seriously, too much rear brake bias, particularly if the driver is not braking in a straight line or has weak footwork on downshifts, can cause the rear tires to lock up, which puts the car in a dynamically unstable condition that can easily result in loss of vehicle control. Note that with a moderate amount of rear‐brake bias, the car will have a tendency to rotate (OVERsteer) at corner entry upon brake release......

Mike

Does the "front lock first" for stability apply to mid engine?

I guess my confusion came with the suggestion to replace the "T" block that contains the sensor with a proportioning valve that contains a sensor.

The "T" block in question only feeds the front brakes, so it cannot adjust proportionally between front and rear.

What is under my car is NOT what is shown in the diagram JFB was kind enough to post early into this thread. I think that might be for a Pantera, but it's not what's under my car. My switch is on a "T" fitting under the radiator that only ties into the front brakes.

MH

Mike correct...
My Bad...
I use the "Recent Page" as home and did not notice the "Mangusta Tech" header.
So sorry

JFB,

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
Does the "front lock first" for stability apply to mid engine?

I'm no expert but mid-engine, front-mid-engine, front engine or rear engine isn't the issue. It's all about weight distribution, front-to-back, side-to-side and top-to-bottom. No matter what the configuration of the car, there is a forward weight transfer during braking. This is a dynamic event and how much transfer and the curve depends on many things including weight distribution, suspension, deceleration rate and others. During my racing days we experimented with brake bias quite a bit because it not only affect ultimate straight line braking but handling/trail braking and behavior in traffic. We could get away with experimenting at the race track because there were always people there to clean up the mess if something didn't go well.

But, we are really discussing street cars. Personally I would never set up a street car with brake bias that caused the rears to lock up first. Road conditions and speeds vary greatly. It's a lot easier to control the car by modulating the front brakes during hard braking. Cars with more rear weight bias can typically tolerate more rear brake bias. Over do it and around you go. Just my 2 cents.

Mike

Hi M!ke, thought 2 pics may help....showing the location of the switch (Lucas part #34619, immediately underneath the steering rack)and the wiper motor. Re. your motor, are you taking it out or putting it back in? 2nd pic shows the motor without it's retaining strap, and of course, with the splash shield removed. Re. switch, I'd keep it stock if possible, there must be comparable replacements out there! Regards, Nate

motor:

Thanks Nate, that's exactly what I'm looking at on mine (your steering rack is MUCH cleaner). I bought a generic hydraulic sensor and will re-thread it to fit (if I can figure out what "correct" is).

I'm chasing down electrical issues and the wipers are one of them. I want to remove the assembly, rebuild it and re-grease everything...

next big step will be to buy all new sensors for the gauges and send them and the gauges off to be refurbed and calibrated to match the sensors.

Has anyone compiled a list of the part numbers for the various gauge related sensors?

Oil Pressure / Oil Temp / Water Temp / Etc...

By installing an "adjustable" proportioning valve in the front of a mid-engine car car with rear weight bias will make it possible for you to adjust it to optimize braking force of front and rear wheels, therefore optimizing the braking system.

You can adjust it to exactly your driving taste. In my case, after initial installation and adjustment I continued to fine-tune it ever so slightly over about a thousand miles of driving in various conditions. It was a fun thing to do, improving brake performance it is the best thing that I ever did to my car, by far.

Sliding forward with your front brakes locked in a panic stop toward disaster hoping that the car will somehow stop will never happen to me again.
It only happened twice and fortunately I and my car survived.

Modulating your brakes is something that you can do if you are a very skilful and experienced driver in the subject car. Brake lock-up is a rare and unusual situation, consequently the experience of learning how to do efficient modulation is not presented very often, so it requires offline practice.

Most of our cars are also not driven daily on a yearly basis, therefore as skilled as we might think we are we do not have much chance to learn the optimum brake modulation technique required to avoid trajedy that will not only destroy our car but also our lives. You can still modulate your braking with a proportioning valve installed but you will start at a much better place that saves time.

I equate the skill required for brake modulation with getting a great start off the line with a powerful car in first gear. We can practice and practice and get really good at it, but neglect to do it on a daily basis and you will loose the skill.

DICK RUZZIN

Re. senders, here are two:

Oil Temp sender - Veglia 7M; 65-9633, 12V “Made in Italy”. (Brass, threaded 16x1.5mm)
Temperature Sender (in Radiator) - Otter V60, Buxton, England; backing plate inscribed "AUG69, M72".

Not sure about the water temp & oil pressure units. The water temp sender on my car is brass and has no markings. Always *assumed* the OEM pressure sender was Ford & came w/ the motor - can anyone confirm? Thanks! Nate

Nate, so you have sender in your radiator also ? '1076 has one, but I cannot see that it was ever connected, and I think others in this group thought mine was not-factory...! I did prepare an aftermarket thermostat in-line with a thermal switch (using the switches on the dash just goes to show how unusual rear-engine water cooled cars were in the 60's....!).
The Veglia part used for the oil-pan sender seemed hard to find, so I installed one common to Ferrari 400i...Lee

I got the brake light switch on and working, made my way into the fender well and removed the wiper motor.

I took a shot at rebuilding it, but for some reason I was able to get it working fine in "Slow" but not at all in "Fast", it even "Park"'s correctly... I found it odd that what SHOULD be the direct route DIDN'T work, but the route through a resistor/relay DID work... go figure...

I based the electrical on this article:
http://vitessesteve.co.uk/Luca...2-speed-wiper-wiring

I went ahead and ordered a new motor as it wasn't in the best of shape to begin with. but I'd still like to hear any thoughts on why "fast" failed to work... as far as I could tell electrical was all fine. I had the motor out of the car using jumpers to a battery, so the car's wiring was completely out of the equation.

quote:

Originally posted by LeeA:
Nate, so you have sender in your radiator also ? ....Lee

Hi Lee you're right.....the radiator sensor is meaningless if the wiring harness provides no connection. That said I can confirm that the radiator sensor exists on some cars. While my original rad (1010) doesn't have one, the rad I'm running (from 1056?) does. I haven't noticed the sensor on early cars and don't know if it was ever formally 'included' in any wiring harnesses. Seems like a good feature to use if possible!

M!ke, the Miura guys have great documentation, as I can tell their components are exactly the same as a Goose...Lee

http://www.huskyclub.com/tavwiper.html

(Nate, thanks again, I'm curious if anyone has a stock connection on that Otter switch!)

quote:

Originally posted by LeeA:
M!ke, the Miura guys have great documentation, as I can tell their components are exactly the same as a Goose...Lee

http://www.huskyclub.com/tavwiper.html

(Nate, thanks again, I'm curious if anyone has a stock connection on that Otter switch!)

God forbid they list a Detomaso as a parts source? Detomaso? Is that like a Geno's Pizza?