A proportioning valve will allow you to tune the front brake application pressure to the rear wheels, opposite to most rear wheel drive, front weight biased cars.
You can adjust it easily until your front wheels stop locking up before the rears.
It will effect both front wheels as it is ro be positioned before the T block that sends fluid to the right and left front wheels.
Look in any aftermarket performance catalog like Speedway or Jeggs. Look on the intrnet for a selection. They are inexpensive.
DICK RUZZIN
M!ke H.
I was going to write something like the following but found this. Vehicle dynamics are very complex with many variables. Low-speed, mid-speed and high-speed brake dynamics are all different. Spring rates, wheel rates, shocks, tire sizes and other things affect braking. Changing any of these things can affect how brake bias affects the overall braking. Please, if you don't understand this stuff (most people don't) ask a professional to help. When it comes to brakes there is no middle ground. Stock in good condition or consult an expert.
Below, not my words....
......Maximum braking performance occurs just before brake lockup, as a sliding tire has less grip than a rolling tire, thus tuning brake balance is all about controlling when the brakes lockup. As max performance obviously will occur when all 4 tires (& associated brakes) are doing the maximum work, an ideal brake bias is one that locks the front and rear brakes at the same time. In practice however, locking the rear tires typically result in a rapid spin, and locking all 4 wheels results in a slower spin, especially if the car is trail braking. For this reason, some “extra” front bias is normally used, because when the front brakes lockup the car remains stable (but you lose the ability to steer the car – it just goes straight) and this allows the driver time to recognize the brake lockup and reduce brake pressure to regain max braking performance and control. To tune the brake bias, pay particular attention to what happens during the braking phase and corner entry. Sudden spins in this zone often indicate rear brake lockup, while a bad push may indicate front brake lockup. Video replays or data acquisition systems can be useful in identifying this, but remember the inner (unloaded) tire will be the first to lock.
Increasing Front bias: Shown as a larger number, increasing brake bias to the front will put more braking force into the front tires. This will stabilize the car in braking zones and increase understeer at corner entry. The compromise is that with too much front bias the rear tires are being under‐utilized and overall braking efficiency will suffer. This can also cause rapid front tire wear due to front tire lockup, especially of the inside tire which is the first to lock up.
Reducing Front bias: This puts more braking on the rear tires, which, within limits, improves braking efficiency. Too much rear brake bias, though, hurts performance in two ways. First, it reduces overall braking efficiency. More seriously, too much rear brake bias, particularly if the driver is not braking in a straight line or has weak footwork on downshifts, can cause the rear tires to lock up, which puts the car in a dynamically unstable condition that can easily result in loss of vehicle control. Note that with a moderate amount of rear‐brake bias, the car will have a tendency to rotate (OVERsteer) at corner entry upon brake release......
Mike
I was going to write something like the following but found this. Vehicle dynamics are very complex with many variables. Low-speed, mid-speed and high-speed brake dynamics are all different. Spring rates, wheel rates, shocks, tire sizes and other things affect braking. Changing any of these things can affect how brake bias affects the overall braking. Please, if you don't understand this stuff (most people don't) ask a professional to help. When it comes to brakes there is no middle ground. Stock in good condition or consult an expert.
Below, not my words....
......Maximum braking performance occurs just before brake lockup, as a sliding tire has less grip than a rolling tire, thus tuning brake balance is all about controlling when the brakes lockup. As max performance obviously will occur when all 4 tires (& associated brakes) are doing the maximum work, an ideal brake bias is one that locks the front and rear brakes at the same time. In practice however, locking the rear tires typically result in a rapid spin, and locking all 4 wheels results in a slower spin, especially if the car is trail braking. For this reason, some “extra” front bias is normally used, because when the front brakes lockup the car remains stable (but you lose the ability to steer the car – it just goes straight) and this allows the driver time to recognize the brake lockup and reduce brake pressure to regain max braking performance and control. To tune the brake bias, pay particular attention to what happens during the braking phase and corner entry. Sudden spins in this zone often indicate rear brake lockup, while a bad push may indicate front brake lockup. Video replays or data acquisition systems can be useful in identifying this, but remember the inner (unloaded) tire will be the first to lock.
Increasing Front bias: Shown as a larger number, increasing brake bias to the front will put more braking force into the front tires. This will stabilize the car in braking zones and increase understeer at corner entry. The compromise is that with too much front bias the rear tires are being under‐utilized and overall braking efficiency will suffer. This can also cause rapid front tire wear due to front tire lockup, especially of the inside tire which is the first to lock up.
Reducing Front bias: This puts more braking on the rear tires, which, within limits, improves braking efficiency. Too much rear brake bias, though, hurts performance in two ways. First, it reduces overall braking efficiency. More seriously, too much rear brake bias, particularly if the driver is not braking in a straight line or has weak footwork on downshifts, can cause the rear tires to lock up, which puts the car in a dynamically unstable condition that can easily result in loss of vehicle control. Note that with a moderate amount of rear‐brake bias, the car will have a tendency to rotate (OVERsteer) at corner entry upon brake release......
Mike
Does the "front lock first" for stability apply to mid engine?
I guess my confusion came with the suggestion to replace the "T" block that contains the sensor with a proportioning valve that contains a sensor.
The "T" block in question only feeds the front brakes, so it cannot adjust proportionally between front and rear.
What is under my car is NOT what is shown in the diagram JFB was kind enough to post early into this thread. I think that might be for a Pantera, but it's not what's under my car. My switch is on a "T" fitting under the radiator that only ties into the front brakes.
MH
The "T" block in question only feeds the front brakes, so it cannot adjust proportionally between front and rear.
What is under my car is NOT what is shown in the diagram JFB was kind enough to post early into this thread. I think that might be for a Pantera, but it's not what's under my car. My switch is on a "T" fitting under the radiator that only ties into the front brakes.
MH
Mike correct...
My Bad...
I use the "Recent Page" as home and did not notice the "Mangusta Tech" header.
So sorry
My Bad...
I use the "Recent Page" as home and did not notice the "Mangusta Tech" header.
So sorry
JFB,
I'm no expert but mid-engine, front-mid-engine, front engine or rear engine isn't the issue. It's all about weight distribution, front-to-back, side-to-side and top-to-bottom. No matter what the configuration of the car, there is a forward weight transfer during braking. This is a dynamic event and how much transfer and the curve depends on many things including weight distribution, suspension, deceleration rate and others. During my racing days we experimented with brake bias quite a bit because it not only affect ultimate straight line braking but handling/trail braking and behavior in traffic. We could get away with experimenting at the race track because there were always people there to clean up the mess if something didn't go well.
But, we are really discussing street cars. Personally I would never set up a street car with brake bias that caused the rears to lock up first. Road conditions and speeds vary greatly. It's a lot easier to control the car by modulating the front brakes during hard braking. Cars with more rear weight bias can typically tolerate more rear brake bias. Over do it and around you go. Just my 2 cents.
Mike
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
Does the "front lock first" for stability apply to mid engine?
I'm no expert but mid-engine, front-mid-engine, front engine or rear engine isn't the issue. It's all about weight distribution, front-to-back, side-to-side and top-to-bottom. No matter what the configuration of the car, there is a forward weight transfer during braking. This is a dynamic event and how much transfer and the curve depends on many things including weight distribution, suspension, deceleration rate and others. During my racing days we experimented with brake bias quite a bit because it not only affect ultimate straight line braking but handling/trail braking and behavior in traffic. We could get away with experimenting at the race track because there were always people there to clean up the mess if something didn't go well.
But, we are really discussing street cars. Personally I would never set up a street car with brake bias that caused the rears to lock up first. Road conditions and speeds vary greatly. It's a lot easier to control the car by modulating the front brakes during hard braking. Cars with more rear weight bias can typically tolerate more rear brake bias. Over do it and around you go. Just my 2 cents.
Mike
Hi M!ke, thought 2 pics may help....showing the location of the switch (Lucas part #34619, immediately underneath the steering rack)and the wiper motor. Re. your motor, are you taking it out or putting it back in? 2nd pic shows the motor without it's retaining strap, and of course, with the splash shield removed. Re. switch, I'd keep it stock if possible, there must be comparable replacements out there! Regards, Nate
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Thanks Nate, that's exactly what I'm looking at on mine (your steering rack is MUCH cleaner). I bought a generic hydraulic sensor and will re-thread it to fit (if I can figure out what "correct" is).
I'm chasing down electrical issues and the wipers are one of them. I want to remove the assembly, rebuild it and re-grease everything...
next big step will be to buy all new sensors for the gauges and send them and the gauges off to be refurbed and calibrated to match the sensors.
Has anyone compiled a list of the part numbers for the various gauge related sensors?
Oil Pressure / Oil Temp / Water Temp / Etc...
I'm chasing down electrical issues and the wipers are one of them. I want to remove the assembly, rebuild it and re-grease everything...
next big step will be to buy all new sensors for the gauges and send them and the gauges off to be refurbed and calibrated to match the sensors.
Has anyone compiled a list of the part numbers for the various gauge related sensors?
Oil Pressure / Oil Temp / Water Temp / Etc...
By installing an "adjustable" proportioning valve in the front of a mid-engine car car with rear weight bias will make it possible for you to adjust it to optimize braking force of front and rear wheels, therefore optimizing the braking system.
You can adjust it to exactly your driving taste. In my case, after initial installation and adjustment I continued to fine-tune it ever so slightly over about a thousand miles of driving in various conditions. It was a fun thing to do, improving brake performance it is the best thing that I ever did to my car, by far.
Sliding forward with your front brakes locked in a panic stop toward disaster hoping that the car will somehow stop will never happen to me again.
It only happened twice and fortunately I and my car survived.
Modulating your brakes is something that you can do if you are a very skilful and experienced driver in the subject car. Brake lock-up is a rare and unusual situation, consequently the experience of learning how to do efficient modulation is not presented very often, so it requires offline practice.
Most of our cars are also not driven daily on a yearly basis, therefore as skilled as we might think we are we do not have much chance to learn the optimum brake modulation technique required to avoid trajedy that will not only destroy our car but also our lives. You can still modulate your braking with a proportioning valve installed but you will start at a much better place that saves time.
I equate the skill required for brake modulation with getting a great start off the line with a powerful car in first gear. We can practice and practice and get really good at it, but neglect to do it on a daily basis and you will loose the skill.
DICK RUZZIN
You can adjust it to exactly your driving taste. In my case, after initial installation and adjustment I continued to fine-tune it ever so slightly over about a thousand miles of driving in various conditions. It was a fun thing to do, improving brake performance it is the best thing that I ever did to my car, by far.
Sliding forward with your front brakes locked in a panic stop toward disaster hoping that the car will somehow stop will never happen to me again.
It only happened twice and fortunately I and my car survived.
Modulating your brakes is something that you can do if you are a very skilful and experienced driver in the subject car. Brake lock-up is a rare and unusual situation, consequently the experience of learning how to do efficient modulation is not presented very often, so it requires offline practice.
Most of our cars are also not driven daily on a yearly basis, therefore as skilled as we might think we are we do not have much chance to learn the optimum brake modulation technique required to avoid trajedy that will not only destroy our car but also our lives. You can still modulate your braking with a proportioning valve installed but you will start at a much better place that saves time.
I equate the skill required for brake modulation with getting a great start off the line with a powerful car in first gear. We can practice and practice and get really good at it, but neglect to do it on a daily basis and you will loose the skill.
DICK RUZZIN
Re. senders, here are two:
Oil Temp sender - Veglia 7M; 65-9633, 12V “Made in Italy”. (Brass, threaded 16x1.5mm)
Temperature Sender (in Radiator) - Otter V60, Buxton, England; backing plate inscribed "AUG69, M72".
Not sure about the water temp & oil pressure units. The water temp sender on my car is brass and has no markings. Always *assumed* the OEM pressure sender was Ford & came w/ the motor - can anyone confirm? Thanks! Nate
Oil Temp sender - Veglia 7M; 65-9633, 12V “Made in Italy”. (Brass, threaded 16x1.5mm)
Temperature Sender (in Radiator) - Otter V60, Buxton, England; backing plate inscribed "AUG69, M72".
Not sure about the water temp & oil pressure units. The water temp sender on my car is brass and has no markings. Always *assumed* the OEM pressure sender was Ford & came w/ the motor - can anyone confirm? Thanks! Nate
Nate, so you have sender in your radiator also ? '1076 has one, but I cannot see that it was ever connected, and I think others in this group thought mine was not-factory...! I did prepare an aftermarket thermostat in-line with a thermal switch (using the switches on the dash just goes to show how unusual rear-engine water cooled cars were in the 60's....!).
The Veglia part used for the oil-pan sender seemed hard to find, so I installed one common to Ferrari 400i...Lee
The Veglia part used for the oil-pan sender seemed hard to find, so I installed one common to Ferrari 400i...Lee
I got the brake light switch on and working, made my way into the fender well and removed the wiper motor.
I took a shot at rebuilding it, but for some reason I was able to get it working fine in "Slow" but not at all in "Fast", it even "Park"'s correctly... I found it odd that what SHOULD be the direct route DIDN'T work, but the route through a resistor/relay DID work... go figure...
I based the electrical on this article:
http://vitessesteve.co.uk/Luca...2-speed-wiper-wiring
I went ahead and ordered a new motor as it wasn't in the best of shape to begin with. but I'd still like to hear any thoughts on why "fast" failed to work... as far as I could tell electrical was all fine. I had the motor out of the car using jumpers to a battery, so the car's wiring was completely out of the equation.
I took a shot at rebuilding it, but for some reason I was able to get it working fine in "Slow" but not at all in "Fast", it even "Park"'s correctly... I found it odd that what SHOULD be the direct route DIDN'T work, but the route through a resistor/relay DID work... go figure...
I based the electrical on this article:
http://vitessesteve.co.uk/Luca...2-speed-wiper-wiring
I went ahead and ordered a new motor as it wasn't in the best of shape to begin with. but I'd still like to hear any thoughts on why "fast" failed to work... as far as I could tell electrical was all fine. I had the motor out of the car using jumpers to a battery, so the car's wiring was completely out of the equation.
quote:Originally posted by LeeA:
Nate, so you have sender in your radiator also ? ....Lee
Hi Lee you're right.....the radiator sensor is meaningless if the wiring harness provides no connection. That said I can confirm that the radiator sensor exists on some cars. While my original rad (1010) doesn't have one, the rad I'm running (from 1056?) does. I haven't noticed the sensor on early cars and don't know if it was ever formally 'included' in any wiring harnesses. Seems like a good feature to use if possible!
M!ke, the Miura guys have great documentation, as I can tell their components are exactly the same as a Goose...Lee
http://www.huskyclub.com/tavwiper.html
(Nate, thanks again, I'm curious if anyone has a stock connection on that Otter switch!)
http://www.huskyclub.com/tavwiper.html
(Nate, thanks again, I'm curious if anyone has a stock connection on that Otter switch!)
quote:Originally posted by LeeA:
M!ke, the Miura guys have great documentation, as I can tell their components are exactly the same as a Goose...Lee
http://www.huskyclub.com/tavwiper.html
(Nate, thanks again, I'm curious if anyone has a stock connection on that Otter switch!)
God forbid they list a Detomaso as a parts source? Detomaso? Is that like a Geno's Pizza?