quote:How do you get the older one interested?
He probably told her if she helped with it, she could use it to drive herself to High School.
He probably told her if she helped with it, she could use it to drive herself to High School.
He probably told her if she helped with it, she could use it to drive herself to High School.
Hi Rob,
Car looks good---congrats! If you need any tec support or restoration suggestions, feel free to drop me a note off line to my amerisport@gmail.com account or call. I have a fair amount of hands on experience and pass it on when needed. Also have many small bits and pieces if you're looking for original parts and I'm fairly close in NW Ohio. Good luck.
Kirk Evans --- AmeriSport ---
http://amerisportindustries.com/
Car looks good---congrats! If you need any tec support or restoration suggestions, feel free to drop me a note off line to my amerisport@gmail.com account or call. I have a fair amount of hands on experience and pass it on when needed. Also have many small bits and pieces if you're looking for original parts and I'm fairly close in NW Ohio. Good luck.
Kirk Evans --- AmeriSport ---
http://amerisportindustries.com/
How can a Pantera look so good straight from the blasting? I´m getting jealous here...
Hi guys,
Sorry...was off the grid for a bit...up north skiing with the family. Enough of that family stuff...
.... back to the garage...
Yep, I'm quite pleased with the condition of the chassis. I have a small hand full areas of corrosion and two spots of damage to repair. I consider myself very lucky. I haven't yet determined repair methods for all yet, but I'll show what I do. The lower radiator support will likely get cut out and replaced. The other areas I will likely cut out the rust and fabricate patches to weld in place...let's see.
My garage has proven to be very functional. It's my third, so really put a lot of planning into it with lessons learned from the previous. I've restored/built quite a few cars in there over the past decade and can really say I'm quite pleased with it. Only a few things I'd change... for example I didn't plan any venting of the area...this was a BIG mistake. I'm considering the plastic wall a trial...If I really like it, I may built a real one to close off the shop.
I love having my girls work in the shop with me. Frankly...it slows me down A LOT, but it's totally worth it. My older daughter isn't really interested. She'll drop in every now and again. The younger one really seems to appreciate cars and likes working on them. So...luvin that! Not so sure about her taking it to school.... however she has "claimed" it as hers. In her words "when you get old and decrepit...it's mine"
She always reminds me..I didn't say when you're dead..I'm not waiting that long... She's a real character!
Thanks for the offer Kirk, actually thanks to all you guys for your insights. Greatly appreciated.
Heading out to the shop. Let's see what I can get done this afternoon.....
Sorry...was off the grid for a bit...up north skiing with the family. Enough of that family stuff...
.... back to the garage...Yep, I'm quite pleased with the condition of the chassis. I have a small hand full areas of corrosion and two spots of damage to repair. I consider myself very lucky. I haven't yet determined repair methods for all yet, but I'll show what I do. The lower radiator support will likely get cut out and replaced. The other areas I will likely cut out the rust and fabricate patches to weld in place...let's see.
My garage has proven to be very functional. It's my third, so really put a lot of planning into it with lessons learned from the previous. I've restored/built quite a few cars in there over the past decade and can really say I'm quite pleased with it. Only a few things I'd change... for example I didn't plan any venting of the area...this was a BIG mistake. I'm considering the plastic wall a trial...If I really like it, I may built a real one to close off the shop.
I love having my girls work in the shop with me. Frankly...it slows me down A LOT, but it's totally worth it. My older daughter isn't really interested. She'll drop in every now and again. The younger one really seems to appreciate cars and likes working on them. So...luvin that! Not so sure about her taking it to school.... however she has "claimed" it as hers. In her words "when you get old and decrepit...it's mine"
She always reminds me..I didn't say when you're dead..I'm not waiting that long... She's a real character!Thanks for the offer Kirk, actually thanks to all you guys for your insights. Greatly appreciated.
Heading out to the shop. Let's see what I can get done this afternoon.....
Rob, I sent you a private message....didn't want to side track this forum.
quote:I love having my girls work in the shop with me. Frankly...it slows me down A LOT, but it's totally worth it. My older daughter isn't really interested. She'll drop in every now and again. The younger one really seems to appreciate cars and likes working on them. So...luvin that! Not so sure about her taking it to school.... however she has "claimed" it as hers. In her words "when you get old and decrepit...it's mine" She always reminds me..I didn't say when you're dead..I'm not waiting that long... She's a real character!
Right on Rob! That's totally awesome! Surprisingly, of my 3 kids it's my youngest daughter who has taken the most interest in cars. My 66 Mustang (GT350 clone) was laid up on jackstands for 11 years and she kept telling me I had better get to work on "her" car. I told her if she helped me turn a few wrenches, she might get to drive it occasionally. We completed the mechanical restoration and got it back on the road and she loves driving it (occasionally). She wanted to learn how to do a burn out, so I took her to a nice large parking lot with no light posts or planter boxes and taught her how to properly do a burnout without breaking or abusing the car. Had her do a few donuts too! She had a perma-grin the rest of the evening. She also got to drive my Pantera the first day I got it back on the road after a 5 year engine rebuild - more big grins!
Anyway, great progress, and keep those girls busy in the garage.
OK, so got to spend a few hours in the shop yesterday. First task was to get her up on some teeny jack stands, so I can work more easily on the underside. In a total brain fart....I built the wall with the portable hoist on the wrong side of the wall. Doh..!!! So, had to string her up from the ceiling.
So, started looking hard at all the ugly areas, and determined the only way to really know was to dig in...found quite a bit of really ugly underneath.
There are many areas of the frame that are damaged. Looks like the car was pulled from ditches a few times.... Many frame holes are torn open or damaged. The one under the passenger seat is absolutely shredded.
I'm gonna cut this section out and fabricate a new section.
The parking brake reaction bracket appears to have come loose from the frame at some point, and has been cobbled back on. Unfortunately, I can't tell what angle this is supposed to be mounted at. Does anyone have access to a clean photo of theirs so I can reference what angle this bracket should at? It would be greatly appreciated.
Tomorrow I'll sand blast inside the rockers and see what I come up with....
So, started looking hard at all the ugly areas, and determined the only way to really know was to dig in...found quite a bit of really ugly underneath.
There are many areas of the frame that are damaged. Looks like the car was pulled from ditches a few times.... Many frame holes are torn open or damaged. The one under the passenger seat is absolutely shredded.
I'm gonna cut this section out and fabricate a new section.
The parking brake reaction bracket appears to have come loose from the frame at some point, and has been cobbled back on. Unfortunately, I can't tell what angle this is supposed to be mounted at. Does anyone have access to a clean photo of theirs so I can reference what angle this bracket should at? It would be greatly appreciated.
Tomorrow I'll sand blast inside the rockers and see what I come up with....
Rob,
Nice blasting job! A bit of work ahead, but it could always be a lot worse.
The bracket looks not far off the way mine is.
Good luck!
Mark
Nice blasting job! A bit of work ahead, but it could always be a lot worse.
The bracket looks not far off the way mine is.
Good luck!
Mark
Attachments
Images (1)
something to think about if you are installing a removable crossmember to get to the sump, i think a number of pple install the handbreak bracket as a removeable item also. may want to check with others that have done this mod. all the best with your restoration.
Chris is correct- that was a factory mod after Ford pulled out. The sump drops down, then moves forward about a foot for removal and the brake is in the way as is the crossmember. There's a decent illustration of the removable factory parts in the black factory illustrated parts manual, or you can easily make your current bracket removeable by welding an angle iron to it and screwing the angle to the frame so the assembly is horizontal and approx. level with the subframe.
The crossmember is more complicated to convert but is actually held in by the front lower a-arm attach nuts. I made one from scratch- it looked easier than modding the stock crossmember.
The crossmember is more complicated to convert but is actually held in by the front lower a-arm attach nuts. I made one from scratch- it looked easier than modding the stock crossmember.
I'm not surprised on the rust. These cars were just driven new.
Seemingly all European cars of the era had little or no consideration for protecting the tub for anything really past 5 years. Porsche is included in that list.
Anti-corrosion ideas in my opinion are actually something coming out of US cars. Laugh at that if you want to.
Japanese cars are also incredible rust buckets as well from the times.
The Japanese ironically called the solution, the "not invented here" solution.
What they mean by that is that eventually they accepted the idea that they would have to use others ideas and proven procedures even though they did not invent it. WITHOUT CONSCIOUS of stealing the idea.
We here in the US for a long time felt that the Japanese success was because they took our ideas, stole them as it were, and improved and applied them to their products.
All of the Europeans positively refused to do that. Ever try telling the Italians, or any other European what or how it should be done?
You shouldn't if you value your physical well being, your families safety or a general tar and feathering. I guess that's an American thing though? Maybe being pelted with empty Cinzano wine bottles filled with gasolene? LOL!
That I used to see from the "University students" on the "left bank" in Paris around 1970. The US Embassy was often a target of that, but I digress.
Looking at Detomaso cars. He actually really tried really hard to protect these things with about a hundred pounds of tar based undercoating. Unfortunately the concept of vat dipping the tub in electrostatic primer never caught on there at all. It is what it is though.
I personally have found that it is best to leave the windshield in place.
They are really touchy and crack very easily.
There are actually aftermarket windshields available here in the US, or at least recently were, by two different glass companies, cheap.
Try $275 each.
Problem is 1) they are aftermarket glass 2) they are thinner than the originals.
LAST time I looked, originals were about $1,200 each new. That was a while ago. I'm afraid to look now.
In an perfect Universe it would be best to remove the glass, strip off all of the paint and reprime, reseal and repaint.
In reality, you can leave it in place and run the new paint right up to the gasket and have it virtually undetectable.
When working on any of these cars it is difficult to know when to end your own personal degree of perfectionism and just learn to compromise?
In my case I have often found out this can be the cause of why what was supposed to be a 10 day project turned into three months or more.
I've been doing this stuff for over 40 years and you would have thought I would have learned better by now? That can't be considered a personality attribute on me?
It's like worrying about your own personal possible medical issues, or developing them. You have to stop the paranoia for something that you can't control and just deal with everything the best you can when it is staring you in the face.
As James Bond was quoted, "you only live twice. Once when you are born, and once when you stare death in the face". (<...and survive it I presume?)
Maybe for me looking at rust and/or seriously twisted metal is the same thing? People like Johnny Woods are offering new injections of faith and hope?
Best of luck on your project...and keeping it away from your daughter who is already claiming it as her's!
Seemingly all European cars of the era had little or no consideration for protecting the tub for anything really past 5 years. Porsche is included in that list.
Anti-corrosion ideas in my opinion are actually something coming out of US cars. Laugh at that if you want to.
Japanese cars are also incredible rust buckets as well from the times.
The Japanese ironically called the solution, the "not invented here" solution.
What they mean by that is that eventually they accepted the idea that they would have to use others ideas and proven procedures even though they did not invent it. WITHOUT CONSCIOUS of stealing the idea.
We here in the US for a long time felt that the Japanese success was because they took our ideas, stole them as it were, and improved and applied them to their products.
All of the Europeans positively refused to do that. Ever try telling the Italians, or any other European what or how it should be done?
You shouldn't if you value your physical well being, your families safety or a general tar and feathering. I guess that's an American thing though? Maybe being pelted with empty Cinzano wine bottles filled with gasolene? LOL!
That I used to see from the "University students" on the "left bank" in Paris around 1970. The US Embassy was often a target of that, but I digress.
Looking at Detomaso cars. He actually really tried really hard to protect these things with about a hundred pounds of tar based undercoating. Unfortunately the concept of vat dipping the tub in electrostatic primer never caught on there at all. It is what it is though.
I personally have found that it is best to leave the windshield in place.
They are really touchy and crack very easily.
There are actually aftermarket windshields available here in the US, or at least recently were, by two different glass companies, cheap.
Try $275 each.
Problem is 1) they are aftermarket glass 2) they are thinner than the originals.
LAST time I looked, originals were about $1,200 each new. That was a while ago. I'm afraid to look now.
In an perfect Universe it would be best to remove the glass, strip off all of the paint and reprime, reseal and repaint.
In reality, you can leave it in place and run the new paint right up to the gasket and have it virtually undetectable.
When working on any of these cars it is difficult to know when to end your own personal degree of perfectionism and just learn to compromise?
In my case I have often found out this can be the cause of why what was supposed to be a 10 day project turned into three months or more.
I've been doing this stuff for over 40 years and you would have thought I would have learned better by now? That can't be considered a personality attribute on me?
It's like worrying about your own personal possible medical issues, or developing them. You have to stop the paranoia for something that you can't control and just deal with everything the best you can when it is staring you in the face.
As James Bond was quoted, "you only live twice. Once when you are born, and once when you stare death in the face". (<...and survive it I presume?)
Maybe for me looking at rust and/or seriously twisted metal is the same thing? People like Johnny Woods are offering new injections of faith and hope?
Best of luck on your project...and keeping it away from your daughter who is already claiming it as her's!
Rob; Enclosing picture of my rear tub area and brake bracket. JAG13CAT here, #3639 restoration.
Envious of your work area.
Appears, like mine, bead blasting revealed more than what was expected.
Your post to me was we are near the same in the restoration process. With your aggressive approach, I'll still be afoot admiring your finished product. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK - Enjoying the progress pics. Unfortunately, I'm stalled momentarily.
Envious of your work area.
Appears, like mine, bead blasting revealed more than what was expected.
Your post to me was we are near the same in the restoration process. With your aggressive approach, I'll still be afoot admiring your finished product. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK - Enjoying the progress pics. Unfortunately, I'm stalled momentarily.
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Chris is correct- that was a factory mod after Ford pulled out. The sump drops down, then moves forward about a foot for removal and the brake is in the way as is the crossmember. There's a decent illustration of the removable factory parts in the black factory illustrated parts manual, or you can easily make your current bracket removeable by welding an angle iron to it and screwing the angle to the frame so the assembly is horizontal and approx. level with the subframe.
The crossmember is more complicated to convert but is actually held in by the front lower a-arm attach nuts. I made one from scratch- it looked easier than modding the stock crossmember.
Have never seen a picture of that with the drive line out of the car. Anyone have one that they can post?
Hi Guys,
Thanks a lot for the pics and feedback. Very helpful. Now..one big question...based on the comments about sump removal...to be clear, are we talking about the oil pan, or some aftermarket deep sump something or another? If I can't get the oil pan off w/o lifting the engine...I might just consider such modifications.
OK, so hit the shop early this morning...knocked out the frame section replacement.
I'm pleased with outcome, other than a couple of the "spot welds" don't look like spot welds... I had the wire feed up a bit too high at first. I slowly dialed it back until I got the right rate. I was concerned not to bring it back too fast and burn through the floor.
Next project will be likely be removing a rocker panel...
Thanks a lot for the pics and feedback. Very helpful. Now..one big question...based on the comments about sump removal...to be clear, are we talking about the oil pan, or some aftermarket deep sump something or another? If I can't get the oil pan off w/o lifting the engine...I might just consider such modifications.
OK, so hit the shop early this morning...knocked out the frame section replacement.
I'm pleased with outcome, other than a couple of the "spot welds" don't look like spot welds... I had the wire feed up a bit too high at first. I slowly dialed it back until I got the right rate. I was concerned not to bring it back too fast and burn through the floor.
Next project will be likely be removing a rocker panel...
Beautiful sheet metal work, Rob. I'm impressed by your progress. Yes- we're talking about oil pan access- the first of two access problems in a stock Pantera is the complete inability to remove the oil pan without raising it up a foot or two; most pull the engine/ZF. Rookie mechanics that assemble a 351-C engine for the first time sometimes install the oil pump driveshaft with the limiting star-washer missing or improperly positioned. Then someone else pulls the distributor, which lifts the little driveshaft up. Then it drops into the pan. And you cannot retrieve or reinstall it correctly without pulling the engine because the pan cannot be removed.
The other is, the fuel tank cannot practically be removed without pulling the engine. Moisture-holding crud builds up behind the tank, causing rust and sometimes structural damage.
The other is, the fuel tank cannot practically be removed without pulling the engine. Moisture-holding crud builds up behind the tank, causing rust and sometimes structural damage.
Thanks, appreciated.
Hmm...interesting tid bits. I'll consider during assembly. I'm struggling with which/what mods to make, as I want to car to present as OE config.
OK, so decided to tackle the rear cross member next rather than the rocker, as I want to hit all the items that need the car so high in the air first.
Drilled out the spot welds and removed the badly bent bottom metal.
Straightened the structure...
Was talking with Kirk Evans last weekend and he mentioned the idea of incorporating jacking points into the car, I thought this sounded like a great idea since it doesn't really seem there are good locations to safely jack (i.e. w/o damaging sheet metal). So, while doing the straightening work, I came up with the idea to fill the rear cross member with plate steel with a split pipe for structure inside of the sheet metal. The idea is that the modification would be absolutely invisible (OE appearing) and would provide a rock solid jacking point. Here is the piece I created..
Here it is sitting in place (held up in place by the interference fitment).
Welding started. I will grind the welds clean and flush when done, then make a new bottom sheet metal section to finish it off. Thanks for the thought Kirk..great idea.
Hmm...interesting tid bits. I'll consider during assembly. I'm struggling with which/what mods to make, as I want to car to present as OE config.
OK, so decided to tackle the rear cross member next rather than the rocker, as I want to hit all the items that need the car so high in the air first.
Drilled out the spot welds and removed the badly bent bottom metal.
Straightened the structure...
Was talking with Kirk Evans last weekend and he mentioned the idea of incorporating jacking points into the car, I thought this sounded like a great idea since it doesn't really seem there are good locations to safely jack (i.e. w/o damaging sheet metal). So, while doing the straightening work, I came up with the idea to fill the rear cross member with plate steel with a split pipe for structure inside of the sheet metal. The idea is that the modification would be absolutely invisible (OE appearing) and would provide a rock solid jacking point. Here is the piece I created..
Here it is sitting in place (held up in place by the interference fitment).
Welding started. I will grind the welds clean and flush when done, then make a new bottom sheet metal section to finish it off. Thanks for the thought Kirk..great idea.
Rob love the solution for the rear support below the ZF...I did something very similar, but actually laid a 3/8" section of plate all the way across and it actually crossed over the frame section running the length of the car. Your idea of the half round tube welded to the underside of the plate is pretty sneaky to strengthen the plate!!!
I noticed there are heat marks around the sway bar mounting studs. Did you do anything to those? I cut the bottom of the mount channel off and slid a 1/4" piece of plating up inside that frame area and it is threaded where the two old bolts were...that way you can thread in new higher quality studs for the sway bars.
Also for the emergency brake, you can cut the old one off and there is a bolt on bracket that I purchased from one of the vendors that I'm sure you can make with your skills. It spans between the two frame rails and fits flush to the frame with the brake cables running on top. I'll try and find you a picture and post it.
While you are at the rear sway bar mounts on the rear A-arms tend to flex and bend...so I added a piece of 1/4" steel on the underside of the bracket and it is also threaded so you still thread the bolts into the existing nuts, but the holes in the 1/4' steel are bigger so the bolt threads through. Might be overkill but it's strong. I attached a picture.
You are making some incredible progress!!! Keep posting the pictures.
I noticed there are heat marks around the sway bar mounting studs. Did you do anything to those? I cut the bottom of the mount channel off and slid a 1/4" piece of plating up inside that frame area and it is threaded where the two old bolts were...that way you can thread in new higher quality studs for the sway bars.
Also for the emergency brake, you can cut the old one off and there is a bolt on bracket that I purchased from one of the vendors that I'm sure you can make with your skills. It spans between the two frame rails and fits flush to the frame with the brake cables running on top. I'll try and find you a picture and post it.
While you are at the rear sway bar mounts on the rear A-arms tend to flex and bend...so I added a piece of 1/4" steel on the underside of the bracket and it is also threaded so you still thread the bolts into the existing nuts, but the holes in the 1/4' steel are bigger so the bolt threads through. Might be overkill but it's strong. I attached a picture.
You are making some incredible progress!!! Keep posting the pictures.
Attachments
Images (1)
Rob,
When I did my door jamb repair I did it as I fit the doors. That is an area as you can see which has a lot of lead in it:
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/door/door.htm
When I did some of my frame repair I also added support in some areas with notches and drain holes to ensure the areas still drain:
I also welded in some panels which helped clean up the look of the rear trunk:
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/paint2/well.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/paint2/wc2.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/paint2/well6.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/paint1/tub2.jpg
On the rear tail I added a plate to make sure it is a solid area which would not be damaged if I wanted to jack there:
Just some ideas
Gary
When I did my door jamb repair I did it as I fit the doors. That is an area as you can see which has a lot of lead in it:
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/door/door.htm
When I did some of my frame repair I also added support in some areas with notches and drain holes to ensure the areas still drain:
I also welded in some panels which helped clean up the look of the rear trunk:
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/paint2/well.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/paint2/wc2.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/paint2/well6.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/paint1/tub2.jpg
On the rear tail I added a plate to make sure it is a solid area which would not be damaged if I wanted to jack there:
Just some ideas
Gary