Parts needed to convert duraspark?

If you're gonna use the MSD ignition module, I recommend using the MSD distributor too, its a better distributor than Ford's Duraspark distributor. It's easier to re-curve too.

I can't advise an advance curve because it is wholly dependent upon your selection of parts for the motor, (heads, pistons, camshaft & fuel octane).

Totally understand the comment around the MSD distributor. But I would like to go with Ford distributor as a trigger, as the cost differential is quite high. Ford Dizzy for maybe $100 vs. $300 for a MSD. I could get the AL6-2 and the duraspark for the price of just the MSD dizzy. you know.

I have also read that the ford duraspark is actually quite easy to adjust. Well other than the curve...

http://www.carbdford.com/viewtopic.php?t=5543

So if you know the specifics of the Ford Duraspark distributor that would be great. I believe a 400M one should work? But not completely sure, and certainly not clear on if I would have to change the gear drive wheel?

As for the engine. 1971 351c 4v heads, dished piston, 290HR roller cam, roller rockers, 750 DP, etc.

Thoughts?

Cheers JC71

quote:

I believe a 400M one should work?

close.

It is the 460 unit that is a drop-in.

Consider keeping it all Ford and passing on the MSD box. For ease of anywhere replacement, the Ford unit can't be beat and will provide reliable performance for a stock or mild street motor.

Larry

So to confirm... this ford reman part should work, right length, gear drive, etc.

1976 Ford Torino 7.5L 4BL HP 8cyl

Part Number: 30-2893
Weight: 3.3 lbs
Warranty: LLT
Application: With single vacuum
Notes: Without module
Application: Reman
Module: W/O Module
Type: Electronic
Meets or Exceeds OEM Specifications: Yes

quote:

It is the 460 unit that is a drop-in.

George, our Fearless Cowboy Leader, sent me a PM with the following -

Any 1977 through 1982 351M, 400 or 460 distributor will work in the Cleveland.

He added they are the same physically, but will have different advance curves.

So that may open up other choices at better pricing?

Larry

Hey George & Larry:

Appreciate the info, re: Any 1977 through 1982 351M, 400 or 460 distributor will work in the Cleveland.

That said, do you know what the small cap options are? The stock cap looks a little big and I am concerned it will not fit.

Cheers JC71

I should have taken a picture but I didn't. Apparently no one believes me?

I found a NAPA part, which means you can get it in a NAPA store.

It is cap # AL162SB. It is a small cap, black. It fits the ford distributor and has male spark plug wire terminals so your spark plug wires can be updated to the Motorcraft as well.

I don't have the rotor number but that is no big deal to look up in the store. You have to change the rotor to match this cap.

The original application for the cap is an International Harvester 350 V8.

I use this cap because I am running Weber 48IDA's on a Hall manifold, a Duraspark and the large cap simply doesn't fit between them.

The other advantage here is that the cap is lower then the big cap and adapter used on the Duraspark. It is necessary in the Pantera to clear the Duraspark to the stock engine screen as well.

quote:

I should have taken a picture

You mean, something like this?

Exactly. Why are you so good to me Larry?

Hey George & Larry:

Thank you for the info. So based on all the options available, which one of the duraspark distributors would have the most appropriate advance curve? The 351M, 400M or 460?
I know you can buy lighter springs that allow the full advance to be reach in the 1800-2500 rpm range. But just curious if the above options would make a difference?

Any and all info is greater appreciated.

Cheers JC71

Without a computer to control the advance and a knock sensor you would never be able to run any advance that fast with todays gas.

You need to go to an all in by 5000 curve.

There isn't alot of difference in the curves on any of those distributors, in fact I'll bet that they are all the same.

All in by 5000 rpm? I have heard and read so many different points of view on this. Most seem to suggest all in by 3000. Some a little lower than that, depending on engine spec and vehicle weight.

That said, I would love to get some thoughts and experience on this subject. I do realize that every engine is different. But there has to be some baseline to work from.

thoughts?

JC71

Even the high performance Fords came from the factory with the big heavy weights.

Generally speaking that meant that they would be all in somewhere around 5,000 engine rpm, 2,500 distributor rpm.

How fast you get to the total and how much it will take depends on how your engine reacts to the gas that you use.

When you use the quench chambers and the pop-up pistons you wind up with 11.6 to 12:1 static compression ratio.

That is too high for 93 out of the pump. It will almost detonate without a spark just turning the engine over.

If you use flat top pistons and quench you are somewhere between 10.6 and 11.1:1 depending on what cylinder head and gasket you use. The 10.6 is about all you can run with 93 octane.

CR with dished pistons and quench heads. Should be 10 to 10.1 to one. I find that a slugish combination with the 4v ports. Maybe the 2v heads are better with it?

Clevelands like a lot of total advance. The "book" is actually 36 to 38 total degrees. The engine is crisp and responsive there.

The racers, particularly drag racers would go all in by 2000 to 2,500 engine rpm.

Two things with that. First the springs are so light they don't last long and stretch out easily. Second is that the gas will detonate because the advance rate is creating increase in cylinder pressure beyond what the gas can handle.

Some have compensated, or tried to by using a dual pattern cam. One that leaves the exhaust open longer so that the piston blows some of the pressure out of the exhaust and lowers cylinder pressure.

I personally have tried all of these combinations here. I found that a regular performance cam with 72 to 73 degrees of overlap, an aluminum quench head with a flat top piston, a total advance of 36 degrees and a slow advance to all in around 5000 engine rpm for me gives the best combination.

It is to the point now that I really should convert to an ignition with a CPU that has a knock sensor on the engine, will compensate automatically by backing off the timing until it doesn't hear knock, records past unsuccessful advance curves and can be recurved electronically with access through my laptop.

That is the only way that I can get more out of the engine other then running 106 octane leaded racing gas, which for me is just not going to happen.

You can use the MSD system as George has suggested. I find their products way below average as far as dependability goes and stereo typical of third world crap, but that's just me. Others love them.

I should also point out that it seems that every time I hear a story about the distributor gear drive pin failing, it always seems to be an after market distributor or one that has been "rebuilt" by a local shop.

I went that route years ago and had nothing but failures on the Accell, and the Mallory. I have not run the MSD distributor and I probably won't.

I do have a stack of failed MSD boxes that I keep in the shop to remind me how stupid I am. When I start to weaken and think about a billet MSD and just look at the broken brains stacked there, I come to my senses.

You are right though. You are going to have to determine what timing works best for your application. Not too many people talk about the Cleveland any more and it isn't a Chevy and you should keep Chevy experts away from it.

Any performance development that has been done on the engine series in the last 10 years is largely coming out of Australia. You could use some of their information for sure but remember they are largely using the 2v which has enough differences then the 4v to put you on your own.

Doug is correct, and it reminds me that the 351-M, 400-M and 460 Duraspark 2 distributors all came off mid to late '80s trucks. I've never put a Duraspark on a distributor machine to check it- and I should because in my previous life with GM engines I found that some of GM's advance was wired into the electronic module. Don't know if Ford did the same.
Another choice for a Duraspark 2 distributor for a 351C is from a 351-W passenger car (which might have a better advance curve) but you MUST change the drive gear from the Windsor gear to the Cleveland size which is 1/8" larger.

I'm going to forward your reply to my wife. She will never believe that someone else who is knowledgeable would ever say that I was right about anything?

Jack,
Take a look here;
http://popularhotrodding.autom...-specifications.html

Also Joe Sherman does fords:
http://www.joeshermanracing.com/

The DuraSpark II ignition boxes do have a wonderful featuer during start! The two wires that control power to the unit are the "S" and "I" terminals, same as on a Ford starter solenoid. For a V8, you want the box with the blue strain relief. Two connectors, one of two wires and one with four wires. Can get them off of the same vehicle you get your distributor from!

During the "S" or start, when +12V is applied from the ignition switch, the unit retards 10 degrees for easier starting! Once you return from start to the "I" or ignition mode of run....then the unit runs normal advance.

I run this in my Boss with a mechanical (only) advance Motorsports distributor. I run about 26 degrees static advance, and 8 mech. in the distributor, so during start, I'm really only at 16....which is exactly where a Boss was set from the factory! Car pops off smartly with no issues. Runs until the valves float....

I enjoy the reliability and comfort that my repair parts are only an old Ford truck away!!!

Ciao!
Steve

Ford 1970's ignition modules 101:

Breakerless ignition showed up in North American Ford vehicles in 1974. The first ignitions were not called DuraSpark; they were referred to as breakerless ignitions. The modules had a green wire strain relief with two harnesses, one connector with 3 pins, and one with 4 pins. I mention these modules just to make you aware of them; the Duraspark modules are more desirable for ignition swaps.

In 1977 Ford began referring to the breakerless ignitions as DuraSpark ignitions, and released two ignitions simultaneously; the DuraSpark I ignition for California, and the DuraSpark II ignition for the rest of North America. They referred to the Duraspark I ignition as the "high output" ignition, it was an entirely different ignition, not "just another Duraspark module". The Duraspark II ignition was just an upgrade of the breakerless ignition Ford had been installing in its cars since 1974. The DuraSpark I ignition was more sophisticated in its design, more expensive to produce, and capable of producing a stronger and more consistent spark under varying engine load conditions. Ford found this necessary to meet California emissions standards in 1977. Both DuraSpark ignition modules had two harnesses, one with a two pin connector, and one with a 4 pin connector, 6 wires in total. The earlier module with the green strain relief had 7 wires; it had a blue wire that was not carried over into the DuraSpark modules.

At the heart of the Duraspark I ignition was a special ignition coil having a very low primary winding resistance. The coil was also operated with no ballast resistance; therefore current flow in the primary windings was substantially increased in comparison to the primary current of Ford's standard (Duraspark II) electronic ignition system. The core of the coil was designed to accept a much higher magnetic charge from the increased current flowing in the primary windings, thus producing a substantially higher voltage to the spark plugs. The higher magnetic charge also allowed the coil to reach "full charge" more rapidly than Ford's other systems. Spark intensity was greatly increased ... especially at higher rpm. If this coil's primary winding was charged with the conventional "fixed-dwell" control utilized by the standard electronic ignition system it would overcharge at low rpm and overheat. Therefore an ignition module with a unique primary current control circuit was required to compliment this coil. Differing from the various Duraspark II ignition modules, the Duraspark I module didn't control charging of the coil in the conventional way. The Duraspark I module utilized dynamic dwell, meaning the module constantly adjusted dwell based on current flow in the coil's primary circuit, independent of engine speed. This prevented over charging or under charging the coil throughout the motor’s rpm range. Dwell therefore varied with respect to the degrees of crankshaft rotation but remained relatively constant with respect to actual coil charging time; and the coil was properly charged throughout the engine's operating range. The DuraSpark I ignition module had a red wiring strain relief. This ignition was only installed in California cars; therefore many hot rodders were not and are still not aware of its existence, or the difference between it and the DuraSpark II ignition module.

In 1978 Ford found it could meet California emissions regulations with the less expensive DuraSpark II ignition in all of its motors except the 302 V8. So California cars with the 302 V8 received the DuraSpark I ignition, and California cars equipped with all other motors got the DuraSpark II ignition like the rest of North America. The same applies to 1979 California cars. 1979 I believe was the last year DuraSpark I was installed in any Ford car. Worthy of mention is the safety feature built into the DuraSpark I module; if the distributor rotor is not turning, the module shuts off current to the coil primary, the ignition cannot fire, so it is safe to work on the ignition without fear of being shocked. NOT SO with any other Ford module. Disconnecting the wrong wire on any other Ford module while you are working under the hood can result in triggering the ignition and shocking you with enough current to stop your heart. No Kidding!

The DuraSpark II ignition module introduced in 1977 has a blue wiring strain relief. It is not much different from the early module with green wiring strain relief. Its reliable and provides a nice spark, but it is less sophisticated than the DuraSpark I. Current in the coil primary is controlled just like it was with a breaker point ignition, with a ballast resistance in line with power to the coil. Dwell time is also controlled the same as a breaker point ignition. To provide a hotter spark while starting the motor, there is a second wire supplying the coil that bypasses the ballast resistor to provide full battery voltage when the ignition key is in the start position. This module is the most common module for retro-fitting breakerless ignition to early cars, simply because many people are not aware of the existence of the DuraSpark I ignition, or they are not aware of the differences. Its also worth mentioning this module can kill you while you are working on the motor unless precautions are taken to avoid an accidental discharge of the ignition!

After 1977 Ford developed other ignition modules with white, brown or yellow wiring strain reliefs that have other features that are unneeded or even undesirable for retro-fitting breakerless ignition. They are designed to work with input from sensors, such as knock sensors, altitude sensors, MAP sensors, etc, and they are designed to control spark timing based on those inputs, to compensate for knock, altitude, engine load, etc. Or they are designed to work in conjunction with Ford's early "EEC" engine management systems. Some of these modules were called DuraSpark II, others DuraSpark III, and beginning in 1981 there was also the "universal" module.

Suggested Shopping List

(1) Rebuilt & recurved Duraspark distributor (sourced from a 1977 – 1982 351M, 400 or 460)

(2) Duraspark I module (reference a 1977 – 1979 California vehicle with a 302 V8 at the parts counter).

(3) Duraspark I coil (its a different coil than a Duraspark II coil)

(4) Painless Wiring #30812 Duraspark wiring harness

(5) Plug Wires: Motorcraft WR-3926R, Std Motor Products 6823, or Ford Racing Perf Parts 9mm plug wires

(6) Autolite AF32 (high compression) or AF42 plugs (or modern equivalents to those plugs)


Installation Notes:

1. When purchasing a module for your car, buy a new old stock module. The sealing material on the bottom of the module should be amber in color. Motorcraft #DY204, or Standard Motor Products #LX210. The NAPA modules were good too. I believe they were all sourced from the same manufacturer. They were very reliable. Eventually the manufacture of the modules was moved to Mexico, those would do in a pinch. The newer modules are Asian manufactured modules, I'd avoid those.

2. DuraSpark modules use a high voltage coil made specifically for DuraSpark ignition. Use the Ford DuraSpark coil or DuraSpark specific replacement such as Motorcraft #DG-316 or Standard Motor Products #FD-477 (0.70Ω primary winding resistance). Do not use a breaker point ignition coil.

3. DuraSpark coils are oil filled and must be mounted oriented vertically, with the top higher than the bottom. They must not be mounted lying horizontally.

4. Painless Wiring sells a wiring harness for DuraSpark II conversions. It can be employed for DuraSpark I conversions too with 4 modifications. It is available at Summit Racing under part number PRF-30812, or JEGS under part number 764-30812.

Those 4 modifications:

• The Duraspark II key tab must be removed from the 4 pin connector to use this harness with Duraspark I modules.
  
• The positions of the green wire and the orange wire must be reversed where they are spliced into the four pin connector's wiring.
  
• The ballast resistor included with the wiring harness is not used for a Duraspark I application.
  
• The alignment lug on the Duraspark I coil tower must be removed to allow the Duraspark II horse shoe style coil connector to slide on.

5. DuraSpark distributors for the 351C will be sourced from a 1977 through 1982 Ford vehicle equipped with a 351M, 400 or 460 cubic inch V8.

6. A ballast resistor suitable for DuraSpark II installations is available from NAPA Auto Parts, NAPA part number ICR23 (1.2 ohms).

7. The Duraspark distributor is not the best choice for sustained high rpm use even in perfect working condition, its propensity for spark scatter is infamous. For operation above 6000 RPM the distributor should be converted to centrifugal advance only, the vacuum advance plate should be locked out, the weight pins strengthened and the pick-up indexed with the rotor. Ford SVO once offered a distributor like this, part number M-12127-A301. Any Ford distributor should be expected to wear out within 50,000 miles. For the record the Moroso #72202 was the best mag pick-up distributor money could buy. It was a 351 Windsor distributor so the distributor drive gear required replacement to make it fit the 351C. But it had no vacuum advance. I'd recommend the MSD #8477 distributor for most applications.

8. The NOS US manufactured Duraspark modules are very reliable, good for over 100,000 miles and at least 10 years of operation. The Duraspark I ignition was one of the most sophisticated ignitions in its day. They lack one feature that is very important for performance driving, an engine speed limiter.

9. If a better ignition is desired, then my recommendation is to look beyond an ignition employing a distributor and consider a distributorless ignition such as the Ford EDIS-8 or Electromotive Engine Controls XDI system. Distributor ignition systems are as obsolete as the slide rule and typewriter.

quote:

Originally posted by jackcarter1971:
All in by 5000 rpm? I have heard and read so many different points of view on this. Most seem to suggest all in by 3000. Some a little lower than that, depending on engine spec and vehicle weight ... That said, I would love to get some thoughts and experience on this subject ...

Jack

There is a curve that many engine builders, distributor repair shops, etc like to use. The centrifugal curve starts advancing between 1000 and 1200 engine rpm and reaches 24 degrees full advance between 3000 and 3200 rpm. A static advance of 8 to 16 degrees is then dialed in depending upon the needs of the motor for a total advance of 32 to 40 degrees.

The curve Ford recommended for the 351C in 1970 was based upon springs included in a dual point distributor conversion kit. It started advancing between 800 and 1000 engine rpm and reached 20 degrees full advance at 2800 rpm. The kit recommended 16 degrees static advance for a total advance of 36 degrees. The maximum advance recommended by Ford was 38 to 40 degrees, and they recommended retarding the static advance setting if detonation occurs. Detonation can put holes in pistons, bend connecting rods and spin rod bearings.

George,

Wow! Great write up!!!!

But, a couple of things: the 7 wire module, 7th wire is a ground. I installed one of these systems in my 74 Cougar with the 351C. Worked great! Could never get my Edelbrock water injection system to work with it though! I was gonna look some of what you wrote up in the books,, but found I must have sold them! No longer on the shelf! They've been replaced with 1979 books, which indeed cover the DS-II system in great depth.

#2 Correct. Internal coil resistance values are different between DS-II and points type.

#3 Coil must be vertical???? I beg to differ and will be taking notes the next time I find a DSII equipped truck or station wagon. I believe that Ford used the same "lay down" coil bracket that came out in the 60's for SBF's, to mount the coil on the intake manifold on all engines up to the 460's in trucks.

#6 If you are running a resistor wire already, you do not need a ballast resistor. In fact, I believe you can even run this DS-II system without a resistor wire or a ballast resistor. This is why I chose it for my Goose. DeT never used a resistor wire....and I was boiling my old coils until I found out about this!!!! Changing to the DS-II system resolved that issue!

Your drawing shows an additional relay installed, which really is not necessary in most all cases when retrofitting into a Ford. I've never seen this in the Ford books or articles on the topic....yet.

#7 Spark scatter: I believe this is why Ford went to the larger distributor cap setup. To help prevent the cross firing.

Distributor wearing out at 50K???? Knowing that the parts books show the same identical bushing for almost every distributor made since the early 60's (Ford MPC...look it up.), why would a breakerless distributor wear any faster than one with points???? That doesn't make sense....unless your sources were talking about the pickup modules failing. I have had these fail, but only perhaps once in 16 years since installation in a daily driven car (and it was used already...).

If you look at your distributor body part number, it will be a C9ZZ....casting number. It is sourced from a 1969 351W distributor! Yes, you to can run a Windsor distributor in your 351C by simply changing the distributor gear.

Sorry, just can't buy the 50K wear out thing. That would imply that every 351W car still running out there today is doing so with a bad distributor.....

Now, perhaps if we're talking about worn out advance pivots, or advance bushings, that may be something that was skimped on in later years..... If you have any concerns, grab a 69-73 351W or 351C distributor and convert it over to a Duraspark unit by swapping in the breaker plate etc. You need to plug the old round hole for the wire, and cut a slot for the new wiring of the pickup module, but no big deal! This is not rocket science.

The thing about shocking yourself is true. Do not "knock" on the distributor if the rotor is lined up with the pickup, and the ignition switch is on.... In fact that is how you can test them!!! Just tap the distributor with a screwdriver head or similar and you'll get a spark! Comes in handy from time to time!

Since the availability of DS-1 modules is sketchy at best in terms of picking one up in the middle of no-where.....I would still advocate the DS-II module. Blue strain relief.

As for other colors, popular myth and junk yard observations would indicate that they are sorta keyed towards number of cylinders.... probably different advance/retard function to better fit the engine class....but, I have never found any documentation to support this. As far as a module goes, it DOES NOT CARE if an 8 cylinder distributor is telling it to fire, or a two cylinder pickup is telling it to fire.....so if you needed a new module, you could really get down the road on anything that a parts vendor or side of the road-kill donor could provide!

Ciao!
Steve

I did not mean to imply the Duraspark dizzys wear out faster than the breaker point dizzys. All Ford dizzys have the same problem. Its just that the subject is Duraspark. If you don't believe a Ford dizzy is worn out in 50,000 miles, put a 50,000 mile dizzy on a distributor machine and observe the operation of the advance mechanism compared to the advance mechanism of a new or rebuilt dizzy. The bushings will have play in them as well, which really played havoc with breaker points.

I believe the relay in the drawing is necessary, that's why I carefully and deliberately put it there. Its purpose is to route the current flowing to the module in another manner rather than flowing through the ignition switch, which when taken apart every Pantera owner will find is a dirty charred high resistance mess; and results in a voltage drop if the current to the module is left to flow through the ignition switch. The module will work best if it receives full battery voltage as intended.

The large Duraspark distributor cap was necessary to prevent crossfire, which is not the same as scatter. The coils on Duraspark equipped cars are still mounted on the intake manifold but they are mounted at a 45 degree angle, with the top higher than the bottom. You're wrong about the other colored modules (brown, yellow, white) indicating the number of cylinders. If you are getting away with no balast resistor supplying the coil with a Duraspark II module its because there is at least 1 ohm resistance in your circuit supplying the coil.

George,

I have seen many of the "later" distributor advance pins with nylon/plastic bushings on them where 60's-early 70's vintage pins are not bushed.... This may tend to have a lot to do with it. Usually the damned things stick! I can agree with the advance pins etc wearing.

Re relay: yes, that is what I sorta thought you were doing. I can fix that messed up ignition switch thing!!! See my post in "for sale"...

I still don't recall a 45 degree either, but I will look. Yes, I could be wrong about the number of cylinders...but they sure seem to be NOT blue in 4 bangers and 6 cylinder cars! Have never seen a blue one in a 4-6 and have never seen a non-blue in a V8...doesn't mean that they didn't.....

I forgot about the 8 wire (three connector) boxes too! there is some sort of interface to a smog type control valve, so some control units will have three connectors on them.....rule is to stay away from these boxes...... Have never looked up to see if you should short, put a resistor in the circuit, or leave it open....

Ciao!
Steve

The info on this thread had been great...thanks very much, what a big help!!!

I called my local NAPA store and they have both the Duraspark Distributor ($66 + $22 core since I'm not giving them the dual point dizzy that came stock on my car) and the Duraspark I (red strain relief $73). The parts guy I spoke with immediately knew what I was talking about when I asked for the Duraspark I red strain relief and said it took him a couple of calls to find the right module, but called me today and said he had it in hand waiting for me to pickup.

I started looking for the wiring harness...whats so special about the Painless harness...seems expensive ($119).

quote:

I called my local NAPA store and they have both the Duraspark Distributor

What are the NAPA part numbers?

Thanks,
John

Tom

20 years ago I ripped the wiring harnesses out of a Pick Your Parts car. But cars with Duraspark ignitions aren't as common in the wrecking yards as they used to be, so I think the wiring harness is a good resource for the guy who can't find a donor car.

As far as price goes, Painless Wiring is the only company offering a Duraspark harness, so the law of supply and demand is at work here. The harness will have 4 obsolete Ford specific connectors which will drive the price up a little.

Tom,

While what George says is true about proper DuraSpark II cars in the yards, they are indeed harder to come by...... trucks are numerous and plentiful!!!! So if you have a DIY bone in ya, you can find nice harnesses in trucks that may have some extra length in them too! But splicing to lengthen or shorten should be allowed for.... I think I had to add about 4ft to the harness that I found, out of an AMC postal truck! (AMC shared Ford parts suppliers sometimes....for a while anyway! My blue strain relief module says AMC on it, but carries a Motorcraft casting and D8TE stamping in it! (1978 Truck part..))

Also I noticed lots of old Lincolns hitting the yards lately too. They are also good sources of 429/460 distributors and modules! Many times less miles on these cars...they die more of lack of use....

Steve

Here's my 2 cents,

I removed a Duraspark Unit from my Pantera after a lot of grief, professionally installed by a vendor, I was amazed at how much wire these things required, alot of connection without very good results, left me on the side of the road many times. Also the large cap tends to rub and short out on the firewall, big problem.
I removed that mess and installed a Mallory Unilite small cap and pretty much restored the wiring to a stock configuration. It worked great at first. It seems to be fading away at not many miles.

This Distributer thing is a problem on fords, I don't want anything to do with MSD as a non fix, I thought I would try Crane Cams Ignition, http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/Page019.pdf , but I do not know if they are reliable and then I would be back to the wiring mess with boxes.

So with this in mind I don't want to reinvent the wheel here, or install a over complicated crank triggered ignition, I go back to what I know will work and you can forget it, a HEI unit from GM.
Guess what; http://www.performancedistributors.com/forddui.htm
Looks like for me with the new engine install I will be moving the Engine and Trans back 1/2" to 1" to keep the Distributer off the fire wall!
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...=576105521#576105521

Mark

Mark,

That's a bummer!!!!! With only the module and the pickup in the distributor to fail, other than mechanical bits common to all types of distributors, I would venture that your story is the exception....... So many DuraSpark conversions have been done, and it is documented "how" in so many places.....it is a surprise (to me) that you had issues, other than the cap hitting the chassis... I would have put the small distributor cap back on, run the plugs at .045-.050" gap and called it good!

Sounds a lot easier than moving an engine and trans.......

Steve

Just picked up my parts from NAPA:
Rebuilt Ford Motorcraft Distributor NAPA part #48-2893 $56.72 (NAPA tells me they come from A-1 Cardone)
New Duraspark Control Module (red strain relief) made by Echlin, NAPA part #TP39 $77.18
I will post some pictures later today.

The parts man at NAPA really knows what he's doing...he made sure that the distributor came with the larger drive gear for the Cleveland and made sure the control module came with the red strain relief. He also threw in three hardened distributor drive gear pins.

Mark I'm hoping for better results than you've had...the thing that sold me was all the detail that George posted earlier in the thread...the 10 degree retard will be helpful for a 10.5 cr motor...and hopefully will be a very reliable system.

Next step...checking out the distributor advance weights and springs.

Tom,

Sounds like you have a plan!!!!

Couple of things..... I am not sure if the module that you have delivers the 10 degree retard during start. AFAIK, that is a blue module feature, but then this is all I have ever seen mentioned. Possible that the others have it, but I've never heard from a Ford Ignition engineer as to the validity of a statement like that. Perhaps you can figure it out during installation!? Check timing without it connected up (S wire) and with......

As for George's history lesson, his dates and names are not correct, but the general idea is solid regarding most of his explanation.

I think either system I or II will kill you if you are grabbing the wrong wire in the proper way, but other than that, you will get a wake up call if you are holding a wire when it fires!!! They develop a lot of voltage either way!

I've given BossWrench a copy of a Ford doc printed in the late 70's or early 80's that plainly documents how to work on these ignition systems. I hope that he will print it one of these days in the POCA newsletter! It's about 7-8 double sided pages...and is most interesting!

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Mangusta:
Tom,

I think either system I or II will kill you if you are grabbing the wrong wire in the proper way, but other than that, you will get a wake up call if you are holding a wire when it fires!!! They develop a lot of voltage either way!
Steve

Steve...that's not the greatest news...that feature described by George was one of the ones that really sold me and was one of the features an absent minded mechanic like me really needs. I have been ZAPPPPPPED!!! a few times and a "wake up call" (LOL) is not a fair description!!!!!! Silly me...I have never liked being the conductor of electricity. I remember screwing around in high school with an Excel coil in my Mustang that supposedly put out 50K volts or something like that and my friends and I use to marvel at how far the spark would jump from the coil to the unplugged coil wire WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING....makes for some interesting night time fireworks. Surprisingly we lived through that period of our lives.

Ah yes, the early years....with electricity!!!!

What I do not understand in George's post, was how the two system supposedly differ in terms of the voltage "firing"?

The pickup in the distributor is the same. The method to make the unit "fire" is the same. Line up the rotor vane with the pickup coil, and tap distributor with a screwdriver handle....spark happens. Now, how would a module make this different??? Coils are the same or darn similar....

I think either system you choose needs to be treated with respect.....less you want the wife to see you out dancing around your car waving your numb fingers in the air..... Don't ask...

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by SICK CAT:
Here's my 2 cents,

I removed a Duraspark Unit from my Pantera after a lot of grief, professionally installed by a vendor, I was amazed at how much wire these things required, alot of connection without very good results, left me on the side of the road many times. Also the large cap tends to rub and short out on the firewall, big problem.
I removed that mess and installed a Mallory Unilite small cap and pretty much restored the wiring to a stock configuration. It worked great at first. It seems to be fading away at not many miles.

This Distributer thing is a problem on fords, I don't want anything to do with MSD as a non fix, I thought I would try Crane Cams Ignition, http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/Page019.pdf , but I do not know if they are reliable and then I would be back to the wiring mess with boxes.

So with this in mind I don't want to reinvent the wheel here, or install a over complicated crank triggered ignition, I go back to what I know will work and you can forget it, a HEI unit from GM.
Guess what; http://www.performancedistributors.com/forddui.htm
Looks like for me with the new engine install I will be moving the Engine and Trans back 1/2" to 1" to keep the Distributer off the fire wall!
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...=576105521#576105521

Mark

If you use the small cap then there is no problem with it shorting to the firewall. The cap is less then $9.

I guess no one listens to me?

No Doug, I saw that....there's a picture of the small cap, it was black. I have not gone back and re-read this thread but there was also a comment that one of the cures for spark scatter above 6,000r's was the use of the larger cap....I was thinking I'd try both. My distributor is tight with the large cap and I was actually looking forward to using the small cap to gain some room.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom@Seal Beach:
No Doug, I saw that....there's a picture of the small cap, it was black. I have not gone back and re-read this thread but there was also a comment that one of the cures for spark scatter above 6,000r's was the use of the larger cap....I was thinking I'd try both. My distributor is tight with the large cap and I was actually looking forward to using the small cap to gain some room.

People have been using the small cap in racing forever.

I've run 8,200rpm with no noticeable problems. Of course at that speed I'm getting shaken around pretty well and probably wouldn't notice.

Not only is the cap smaller but you eliminate the adapter for the big cap.

I was sceptical at first but the large cap just doesn't fit with the Webers so I had no choice.

Tom,

There are two issues with distributors and spark....spark scatter, and spark jumping.....

Spark scatter (as I understand it) is the ability to create a spark at the same time every time during and engine's revolution....apparently the point at which a pick up actually picks up the vane of the distributor rotor can vary slightly.....from different manufacturers.... I know not how the DuraSpark performs here.....but Dr Jacobs of Jacob's Ignitions doesn't seem to have much of a problem with them....

Second thing is spark jumping.... or crossfiring...and this can be reduced by running slightly smaller spark plug gaps than recommended for the large cap systems. Theory being that the larger spark gap works the system harder, and if the conditions are right, a spark could jump from one terminal to another (path of least resistance) and cause issues.

I'd run a small cap and see what happens. If you are the sort that can't handle running below 6000 rpms on a daily basis, well then you need to be more creative in your solution.

I don't know too many folks that actually would ever see their 351C at the 6000-6500 RPM range....so I still maintain that the DuraSpark components are one of the best upgrades for an ignition system.

Doug....what did you say??

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Mangusta:
Tom,

There are two issues with distributors and spark....spark scatter, and spark jumping.....

Spark scatter (as I understand it) is the ability to create a spark at the same time every time during and engine's revolution....apparently the point at which a pick up actually picks up the vane of the distributor rotor can vary slightly.....from different manufacturers.... I know not how the DuraSpark performs here.....but Dr Jacobs of Jacob's Ignitions doesn't seem to have much of a problem with them....

Second thing is spark jumping.... or crossfiring...and this can be reduced by running slightly smaller spark plug gaps than recommended for the large cap systems. Theory being that the larger spark gap works the system harder, and if the conditions are right, a spark could jump from one terminal to another (path of least resistance) and cause issues.

I'd run a small cap and see what happens. If you are the sort that can't handle running below 6000 rpms on a daily basis, well then you need to be more creative in your solution.

I don't know too many folks that actually would ever see their 351C at the 6000-6500 RPM range....so I still maintain that the DuraSpark components are one of the best upgrades for an ignition system.

Doug....what did you say??

Steve

Sorry Steve. I guess I was reving it a little to loudly? Needless to say, I am not running a stock engine?

That small cap shouldn't be any kind of a problem for a stockish engine.

Here's a picture of the DuraSpark I Control Module I picked up a NAPA today. Note red strain relief.

Here's a picture of the DuraSpark Distributor I picked up today. This is rebuilt by A1 Cardone for NAPA per the parts man.