Programable ignition
If you were running a full programable ignition what would a ignition curve look like?
Anders
Belgiumbarry, you may know my view already, but here goes. You cannot time your engine based on advice from others, you have to buy that vacuum gauge, do the testing, listen for detonation etc. as my book describes. Only then will your engine be optimized and live long. The initial 16 and total 34-36 are good starting points though, but they're only that. And remember, if in doubt, use less timing, that won't kill your engine.
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
Belgiumbarry, you may know my view already, but here goes. You cannot time your engine based on advice from others, you have to buy that vacuum gauge, do the testing, listen for detonation etc. as my book describes. Only then will your engine be optimized and live long. The initial 16 and total 34-36 are good starting points though, but they're only that. And remember, if in doubt, use less timing, that won't kill your engine.
Mikael, think i buy your book and read it this summer on the boat in south France
So , yes, i dialed a degree back. Gonne see first my plugs also, been running 26 all in, instead 36 , could have fouled them ??
Today tech inspection done and got 1 red point
... steel brake lines in front ...so no great problem to solve. Isn't from me, must have come this way from the USA owner and is forbidden in Belgium.. they like more plastic !!! 
If you had a Pantera-Electronics ignition it would clean them right up. Saves a lot of now unnecessary labor.
can't get a sharper view with my "kodak" but gives a good idea of color.. is this right ?? wa do you think ??
but gives a good idea of color.. is this right ?? wa do you think ??
It looks right, but can't say before it's determined if the plug has right heat number. How to tell diff between mixture color and heat range color is in the book...
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
It looks right, but can't say before it's determined if the plug has right heat number. How to tell diff between mixture color and heat range color is in the book...
give me a hint..give me a hint
according what i found on the net that color is the best !
aren't we all running Autolite's 25 ???
It's like other things, simple on the surface, complicated if you want to be sure. If your plugs are too cold they foul up despite a too lean mixture. Here's a paste of that short section of my book, hope it helps:
-------------------
Spark plug reading
Reading spark plugs is another window into the engine, to what goes on in there. Or to put it a bit more philosophically, the plugs are the windows to the soul of the engine. It's an important methodology because it can tell you so much, but it's also a difficult methodology, because it can easily be misinterpreted, especially with the bad gas we are subjected to today. To read the plugs I’ll discuss the following three steps:
1. Getting the proper heat range plug
2. Reading plugs for engine problems
3. Reading plugs to help tune the engine
The biggest challenge in reading plugs is that if you read a plug and it looks rich, there are two possible causes. One is that the plug itself is too cold while the jetting of the carb is fine, the second is that the plug is the correct heat range, but the carb is jetted too rich. These two scenarios require very different remedies, so it's critical to find out which it is.
On 1. Getting the proper heat range plug
If your engine is stock, you can read in the manuals which plugs to use. If they read rich or lean it's because the carb needs tuning. But be careful if you change plug brand, make sure the translation from the old brand's heat range to the new is accurate. Don't trust the guy in the local shop selling it to you; it could be that he sells you what he has on the shelf.
If your engine is a performance engine, having improper heat range plugs can kill the engine. If in doubt, throw them out and buy new ones, because plugs are cheap.
If your engine is stock with the addition of a nitrous system, you have to go two heat ranges colder, the same for a blown engine. Remember that on American spark plugs, the higher the number, the hotter the plug, while on European and Japanese plugs it's the other way around.
It's better to have too cold a plug than too hot. So if in doubt, go for the colder one. When it then constantly fouls, and you know your engine is in good tune, buy the next hotter range until it doesn't foul anymore. So what's bad about a hot plug? It sounds great, ‘hot’ is generally a good word and it sounds like it could aid combustion. But if it's too hot the electrodes burn away too fast, and even worse it can glow red hot and cause pre-ignition/detonation which can kill your engine. Having too cold a plug doesn't include such risks; the only risk is that the plugs foul.
So here's how to find the right plugs if your engine is not stock. Drive a while on the freeway (remember that new plugs may take 500 miles to get their color). If the engine from time to time pings or detonates, try colder plugs until it goes away. If not, then stop somewhere safe and pull the plugs. If they are really black, try hotter plugs until that condition goes away. When you get to the right heat range plug, there will be one tell-tale indication that can't be confused with carb adjustment. When the heat range is right, there will be a narrow bluish ring around the electrode, approximately 1mm from the tip. If the heat range is right and the carb mixture is right you'll be able to see it right away, but if the heat range is right and the carb mixture is too rich, you’ll have to clean the plug first.
Always buy copper plugs or similar, as their effective heat range is wider, so they're more forgiving if you don't have the exact right heat range, and even more important, they can better handle the different chores of keeping the plugs clean when idling and not getting too hot when accelerating full throttle. Platinum plugs are fine in modern fuel-injected cars, but will quickly foul in a carbureted car because they demand a 100% perfect mixture at all times, which even the best-tuned carburetor simply can’t deliver.
On 2. Reading plugs for problems
Yes, I know, it's not fun looking for problems. But if there are problems, they have to be remedied before you can tune the engine. Let's try to look at the serious symptoms one at a time:
• Electrodes are melted: Over-hot condition, the mixture way too lean. Fix immediately or expect to kill the engine on the next run down the track if it's not already dead
• Electrodes are bent or broken: Mechanical interference of the worst kind. Did you just put high dome pistons in it? Or longer thread plugs? If you find that the gap between the electrodes tends to decrease over time, they could be just kissing the pistons at high rpm
• The plug looks wet: If it's gasoline, this can normally be fixed by tuning the carb (smell it), but if it's oil, forget about tuning, you need to rebuild your engine first
• Small bubbles on center electrode and a shiny look on the side electrode and porcelain: Too hot plug, see, see On 1 above
• Small black or silver deposits on the porcelain: This is either bad or very bad, it's a sign of detonation. If it's black, it is the carbon deposits that are in every combustion chamber that have been rattled loose and are then melted onto the porcelain. Remember that detonation is like hitting the piston with a hammer. If it's silver-like it's even worse, then it's part of your piston being thrown all over the combustion chamber, maybe it's time for a rebuild...
• Plugs look different: At the start you have to pull all plugs, not just one. Later when it comes to fine-tuning and you know you don't have fuel distribution problems, one plug will be enough. If you pull all plugs (and remember which spark plug goes where) and see differences, this has to be addressed. It could be idle mixture or jetting that needs to be changed on one side. If some plugs look much leaner than the rest there could be a vacuum leak close to them. I had a boat with a blower and a single Holley Dominator. Cylinders 1 and 8 were always leaner than the rest. I tried turning the Dominator 90 degrees, I modified the intake manifold, I tried all sorts of jet combinations in the Dominator, but none of it helped the situation. In the end I bit the bullet, bought two smaller Holley blower carbs and an adapter for them to sit on top of the blower, did some jetting, and only then were all eight cylinders the same
On 3. Reading plugs to help tune the engine
So with the proper heat range plugs and no serious problems, we can start reading the plugs to help us tune the engine. The ideal plug will look something like this: The porcelain is chocolate color (leaded fuel) or very light brown, almost white (unleaded fuel), the tips of the electrodes (center electrode and side electrode) are grey; the rest of the side electrode is straw color. There will be some deposits on the plug, but only dry and low gloss, no shiny and no wet deposits. And you can see the narrow bluish ring around the electrode, approximately 1mm from the tip, the strongest indicator for having the right heat range plugs.
If the mixture is too rich the plug will be sooty brown/black. If the tips of the electrodes are grey, then the plug is still firing, so it's a mixture issue, but if the electrode tips are also sooty brown/black, the plug doesn't fire every time, and that has to be fixed before the plug can be properly read. The sooty brown/black stuff may disappear when the plugs start firing again. If it's only one or two plugs looking like this, it's very likely an ignition issue that has to be solved first.
If the mixture is too lean, and you use leaded gas, the porcelain will be all white and the center electrode tip can be white as well. If you use unleaded gas, things are more difficult to interpret, because an engine in perfect tune will almost not color the porcelain. So a lean looking plug could be alright. Examine that plug even closer, because if the engine is running lean, you definitely want to know about it and remedy it. Look for a white center electrode, signs of overheating like bubbles and burnt electrodes to help find a too-lean condition.
Since we’re trying to build a performance car more than an economic daily driver, I recommend again to go on the rich side. And since it's difficult to see the difference between okay and lean when using unleaded gas, that's another reason to go a little too rich; it gives you peace of mind. So my recommendation is to be a little rich, have plugs that are somewhat sooty brown, at least not white. Then you know you're alright and you have a margin of error on your side.
-----------------------
Good luck with it
-------------------
Spark plug reading
Reading spark plugs is another window into the engine, to what goes on in there. Or to put it a bit more philosophically, the plugs are the windows to the soul of the engine. It's an important methodology because it can tell you so much, but it's also a difficult methodology, because it can easily be misinterpreted, especially with the bad gas we are subjected to today. To read the plugs I’ll discuss the following three steps:
1. Getting the proper heat range plug
2. Reading plugs for engine problems
3. Reading plugs to help tune the engine
The biggest challenge in reading plugs is that if you read a plug and it looks rich, there are two possible causes. One is that the plug itself is too cold while the jetting of the carb is fine, the second is that the plug is the correct heat range, but the carb is jetted too rich. These two scenarios require very different remedies, so it's critical to find out which it is.
On 1. Getting the proper heat range plug
If your engine is stock, you can read in the manuals which plugs to use. If they read rich or lean it's because the carb needs tuning. But be careful if you change plug brand, make sure the translation from the old brand's heat range to the new is accurate. Don't trust the guy in the local shop selling it to you; it could be that he sells you what he has on the shelf.
If your engine is a performance engine, having improper heat range plugs can kill the engine. If in doubt, throw them out and buy new ones, because plugs are cheap.
If your engine is stock with the addition of a nitrous system, you have to go two heat ranges colder, the same for a blown engine. Remember that on American spark plugs, the higher the number, the hotter the plug, while on European and Japanese plugs it's the other way around.
It's better to have too cold a plug than too hot. So if in doubt, go for the colder one. When it then constantly fouls, and you know your engine is in good tune, buy the next hotter range until it doesn't foul anymore. So what's bad about a hot plug? It sounds great, ‘hot’ is generally a good word and it sounds like it could aid combustion. But if it's too hot the electrodes burn away too fast, and even worse it can glow red hot and cause pre-ignition/detonation which can kill your engine. Having too cold a plug doesn't include such risks; the only risk is that the plugs foul.
So here's how to find the right plugs if your engine is not stock. Drive a while on the freeway (remember that new plugs may take 500 miles to get their color). If the engine from time to time pings or detonates, try colder plugs until it goes away. If not, then stop somewhere safe and pull the plugs. If they are really black, try hotter plugs until that condition goes away. When you get to the right heat range plug, there will be one tell-tale indication that can't be confused with carb adjustment. When the heat range is right, there will be a narrow bluish ring around the electrode, approximately 1mm from the tip. If the heat range is right and the carb mixture is right you'll be able to see it right away, but if the heat range is right and the carb mixture is too rich, you’ll have to clean the plug first.
Always buy copper plugs or similar, as their effective heat range is wider, so they're more forgiving if you don't have the exact right heat range, and even more important, they can better handle the different chores of keeping the plugs clean when idling and not getting too hot when accelerating full throttle. Platinum plugs are fine in modern fuel-injected cars, but will quickly foul in a carbureted car because they demand a 100% perfect mixture at all times, which even the best-tuned carburetor simply can’t deliver.
On 2. Reading plugs for problems
Yes, I know, it's not fun looking for problems. But if there are problems, they have to be remedied before you can tune the engine. Let's try to look at the serious symptoms one at a time:
• Electrodes are melted: Over-hot condition, the mixture way too lean. Fix immediately or expect to kill the engine on the next run down the track if it's not already dead
• Electrodes are bent or broken: Mechanical interference of the worst kind. Did you just put high dome pistons in it? Or longer thread plugs? If you find that the gap between the electrodes tends to decrease over time, they could be just kissing the pistons at high rpm
• The plug looks wet: If it's gasoline, this can normally be fixed by tuning the carb (smell it), but if it's oil, forget about tuning, you need to rebuild your engine first
• Small bubbles on center electrode and a shiny look on the side electrode and porcelain: Too hot plug, see, see On 1 above
• Small black or silver deposits on the porcelain: This is either bad or very bad, it's a sign of detonation. If it's black, it is the carbon deposits that are in every combustion chamber that have been rattled loose and are then melted onto the porcelain. Remember that detonation is like hitting the piston with a hammer. If it's silver-like it's even worse, then it's part of your piston being thrown all over the combustion chamber, maybe it's time for a rebuild...
• Plugs look different: At the start you have to pull all plugs, not just one. Later when it comes to fine-tuning and you know you don't have fuel distribution problems, one plug will be enough. If you pull all plugs (and remember which spark plug goes where) and see differences, this has to be addressed. It could be idle mixture or jetting that needs to be changed on one side. If some plugs look much leaner than the rest there could be a vacuum leak close to them. I had a boat with a blower and a single Holley Dominator. Cylinders 1 and 8 were always leaner than the rest. I tried turning the Dominator 90 degrees, I modified the intake manifold, I tried all sorts of jet combinations in the Dominator, but none of it helped the situation. In the end I bit the bullet, bought two smaller Holley blower carbs and an adapter for them to sit on top of the blower, did some jetting, and only then were all eight cylinders the same
On 3. Reading plugs to help tune the engine
So with the proper heat range plugs and no serious problems, we can start reading the plugs to help us tune the engine. The ideal plug will look something like this: The porcelain is chocolate color (leaded fuel) or very light brown, almost white (unleaded fuel), the tips of the electrodes (center electrode and side electrode) are grey; the rest of the side electrode is straw color. There will be some deposits on the plug, but only dry and low gloss, no shiny and no wet deposits. And you can see the narrow bluish ring around the electrode, approximately 1mm from the tip, the strongest indicator for having the right heat range plugs.
If the mixture is too rich the plug will be sooty brown/black. If the tips of the electrodes are grey, then the plug is still firing, so it's a mixture issue, but if the electrode tips are also sooty brown/black, the plug doesn't fire every time, and that has to be fixed before the plug can be properly read. The sooty brown/black stuff may disappear when the plugs start firing again. If it's only one or two plugs looking like this, it's very likely an ignition issue that has to be solved first.
If the mixture is too lean, and you use leaded gas, the porcelain will be all white and the center electrode tip can be white as well. If you use unleaded gas, things are more difficult to interpret, because an engine in perfect tune will almost not color the porcelain. So a lean looking plug could be alright. Examine that plug even closer, because if the engine is running lean, you definitely want to know about it and remedy it. Look for a white center electrode, signs of overheating like bubbles and burnt electrodes to help find a too-lean condition.
Since we’re trying to build a performance car more than an economic daily driver, I recommend again to go on the rich side. And since it's difficult to see the difference between okay and lean when using unleaded gas, that's another reason to go a little too rich; it gives you peace of mind. So my recommendation is to be a little rich, have plugs that are somewhat sooty brown, at least not white. Then you know you're alright and you have a margin of error on your side.
-----------------------
Good luck with it
The plug is running clean and on the lean side. For a street car, leave it all alone. It's close enough for what you want.
No oil deposits. Engine is tight.
You really can't read them if they were not changed before you did the ignition change though.
You really need to put in a new set of plugs and do it again with them.
Original plug was a Motorcraft AF-32. I don't know where the Autolite crosses over.
It may not be the exact equivelent. The heat range could be wider, or shorter.
Motorcrafts tend to have a narrower heat range.
An AF42 will also work for you to but it is a hotter plug and I wouldn't go to it unless you were showing some signs of plug fouling in city driving conditions.
The 32 tends to clean up within about 100 yards of acceleration into high speed. Sometimes sooner.
If you run the car up to speed (100mph or so) then step off of the accellerator, you might hear the engine blowing carbon off of the plugs and the valves.
It isn't just the plugs that need to be cleaned up, it's the combustion chambers and valve deposits also.
On my plugs on the ceramic insulator on the plug, you can actually see the dividing line between the intake valve side and the exhaust side.
It's like looking at the moon half full. There is light and dark.
Plugs really should be indexed where the tip of the plug electrode points at the intake valve. There is at least 7-10hp to be picked up there.
The stock iron heads have tapered seats for the plugs and I don't know anyone who makes spark plug shims for that.
The aluminum heads use a different plug. It is flat and uses a washer. Those you can shim to index the plug electrodes.
I would put in a new set of plugs drive the car then read the plugs.
To really read plugs for mixture strength there are a bunch of things you need to do as a procedure that is difficult to do on public roads without getting arrested.
My Sony Alpha on Macro sees things that you can't with the naked eye. For stuff like this it's unreal. It would see the little beads from the fuel on the electrodes.
You need a magnifying glass to see that with your eyes.
No oil deposits. Engine is tight.
You really can't read them if they were not changed before you did the ignition change though.
You really need to put in a new set of plugs and do it again with them.
Original plug was a Motorcraft AF-32. I don't know where the Autolite crosses over.
It may not be the exact equivelent. The heat range could be wider, or shorter.
Motorcrafts tend to have a narrower heat range.
An AF42 will also work for you to but it is a hotter plug and I wouldn't go to it unless you were showing some signs of plug fouling in city driving conditions.
The 32 tends to clean up within about 100 yards of acceleration into high speed. Sometimes sooner.
If you run the car up to speed (100mph or so) then step off of the accellerator, you might hear the engine blowing carbon off of the plugs and the valves.
It isn't just the plugs that need to be cleaned up, it's the combustion chambers and valve deposits also.
On my plugs on the ceramic insulator on the plug, you can actually see the dividing line between the intake valve side and the exhaust side.
It's like looking at the moon half full. There is light and dark.
Plugs really should be indexed where the tip of the plug electrode points at the intake valve. There is at least 7-10hp to be picked up there.
The stock iron heads have tapered seats for the plugs and I don't know anyone who makes spark plug shims for that.
The aluminum heads use a different plug. It is flat and uses a washer. Those you can shim to index the plug electrodes.
I would put in a new set of plugs drive the car then read the plugs.
To really read plugs for mixture strength there are a bunch of things you need to do as a procedure that is difficult to do on public roads without getting arrested.
My Sony Alpha on Macro sees things that you can't with the naked eye. For stuff like this it's unreal. It would see the little beads from the fuel on the electrodes.
You need a magnifying glass to see that with your eyes.
quote:aren't we all running Autolite's 25 ???
I run the MME recommended race plugs. Sounds good, running race plugs
. Gotta go for a drive soon! Spring, I'm waiting for you...quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:quote:aren't we all running Autolite's 25 ???
I run the MME recommended race plugs. Sounds good, running race plugs
You can call any plug a "race plug" if you choose.
What I found on my A3 Ford heads is that the plug recommended by the engine builder, which was a Champion N-8, had a race tip electrode and was ridiculously cold.
1) I am convinced that any "Ford" based engine needs an extended tip electrode. They call them "J" tipped electrodes
This is necessary to get the spark out into the air stream.
2) the Champion N-8, is a racing tip. Doesn't extend into the air stream at all.
3) aluminum heads WITH Weber ida's like a plug that is hotter than what the iron head likes.
I wound up with NGK BP5E. It sure helps with resisting the fouling that you CAN get caused by starting a cold engine with no chokes.
They run beautifully clean BUT I have to admit that during this most recent process of getting the timing and the plug range right I did add the Pantera-Electronics ignition brain.
Jon has got a nice short video on his site that shows the ignition firing a fouled plug (no I didn't give him one of my fouled plugs) and then in a matter of a second or two, the spark has cleaned the fouling off of the plug.
That is on the bench and without the aid of the air flow through the combustion chamber that also aids in cleaning off the plug.
You should visit the website and watch the video. It's like a 10 second video.
After you do, you WILL WANT ONE!
So what I am saying here is I can not scientifically identify my solution as having the right plug or adding the ignition brain because I did it at the same time. Shame on me!
http://pantera-electronics.com...files/FouledPlug.MOV
autolite 25 corresponds Motorcraft AF42
stock is AF32...
so i'm running a colder plug ?
stock is AF32...
so i'm running a colder plug ?
In Motorcraft the 32 is cooler than the 42.
Here in the US the 42 usually goes in the 2v carb car like the LTD station wagon and the 32 in the sportier cars with the 4v.
If you go one step colder on the plug you have there will be less white on the electrode. That is probably the correct plug for the car.
You need to be careful with the cross over plug chart now though.
Someone at Motorcraft made a mistake and said that the AF-32 is equal to the AF-42, which it is not.
Unfortunately virtually every spark plug company revised their listings to agree with Motorcrafts. With one exception.
The ONLY chart that is accurate now that I have found is by Champion.
As far as I can tell, the plug that I wound up with is half way in between the 32 and the 42 range.
Here in the US the 42 usually goes in the 2v carb car like the LTD station wagon and the 32 in the sportier cars with the 4v.
If you go one step colder on the plug you have there will be less white on the electrode. That is probably the correct plug for the car.
You need to be careful with the cross over plug chart now though.
Someone at Motorcraft made a mistake and said that the AF-32 is equal to the AF-42, which it is not.
Unfortunately virtually every spark plug company revised their listings to agree with Motorcrafts. With one exception.
The ONLY chart that is accurate now that I have found is by Champion.
As far as I can tell, the plug that I wound up with is half way in between the 32 and the 42 range.
i'm not there yet...went today to the harbor and had again that problem : car is pulling like a torque monster up till 4000 rpm and beyond that hesitation, no misfires, just running lousy.To rich when the secondarys come in play ?? ( Edelbrock )as i see very dark exhaust tips and sure no oil consumption.
I had changed the secondary jets to a # larger but could have been mislead as i had at that time a malfunctioning distributor...
Can it run so messy beyond 4000 rpm when to rich on secondarys ?
I had changed the secondary jets to a # larger but could have been mislead as i had at that time a malfunctioning distributor...
Can it run so messy beyond 4000 rpm when to rich on secondarys ?
Can I just suggest backing off the timing by around five degrees and then take it for a drive and see how it goes? If it doesn't work just move it back. You won't need to do it with a timing light. Just mark where the dizzy is on the dizzy and the intake and just turn it counter clockwize (I think from memory) about 2cm and re-tighten the bolt. It may just be too much advance and this is an easy way to check.
You can do this while the engine is running and you will hear the engine idle slightly slower so you know you are backing off the timing(idles up when advancing). Just make sure to use a rag when you grab the distributor cap because if your ignition is leaking it will give you a nasty boot.
You can do this while the engine is running and you will hear the engine idle slightly slower so you know you are backing off the timing(idles up when advancing). Just make sure to use a rag when you grab the distributor cap because if your ignition is leaking it will give you a nasty boot.
good idea ! i will try it.
Normaly, all advance is in by 4000 , and running strong, so that would mean that the # of advance ,working perfect at 4000, is to much beyond that ?? ( don't have vac advance )
one should have a dialing knob on the dash for advance... sure in a Pantera !
Normaly, all advance is in by 4000 , and running strong, so that would mean that the # of advance ,working perfect at 4000, is to much beyond that ?? ( don't have vac advance )
one should have a dialing knob on the dash for advance... sure in a Pantera !
There is a dash mounted adjustable advance made by MSD. That was one of the few MSD items that I really liked.
I don't know if it can be adapted to your ignition? Maybe?
http://www.msdignition.com/Pro..._Timing_Control.aspx
You should have tested the engine for maximum advance total and at what rpm that occurs.
34-36 degrees total all in at 4,000 rpm should not be any kind of an issue.
Every engine will be a little different. One might like 34, another 36.
The issue ususally is how fast the advance gets to the maximum.
On a drag race car total advance all in by 2,200 to 2,500 is optimizing the car.
In my experience you can not run that rapid of an advance with the pump gas we now have available to us.
An Edelbrock carb has a mechanical secondary. I don't like them. They have to be set perfectly to work right. It is very easy to have the symptoms of over carburetion with them as a result.
What you can do is disconnect the rod to the secondary butterflies, wire them closed so they can not open then run the car and see how it responds.
If it runs better up past 4,000, then that is pointing at the secondaries as the issue.
You need to read the plugs.
The color you are looking for on the electrode is a medium brown with a distinctive rust tint to it.
Get the plugs to look like that with just the primaries connected. Then work on the secondaries.
I don't know what the jetting should be on an Edelbrock. On a Holley that's a different story.
It could well be that you have enrichened the secondaries more that the engine can use.
I don't know if it can be adapted to your ignition? Maybe?
http://www.msdignition.com/Pro..._Timing_Control.aspx
You should have tested the engine for maximum advance total and at what rpm that occurs.
34-36 degrees total all in at 4,000 rpm should not be any kind of an issue.
Every engine will be a little different. One might like 34, another 36.
The issue ususally is how fast the advance gets to the maximum.
On a drag race car total advance all in by 2,200 to 2,500 is optimizing the car.
In my experience you can not run that rapid of an advance with the pump gas we now have available to us.
An Edelbrock carb has a mechanical secondary. I don't like them. They have to be set perfectly to work right. It is very easy to have the symptoms of over carburetion with them as a result.
What you can do is disconnect the rod to the secondary butterflies, wire them closed so they can not open then run the car and see how it responds.
If it runs better up past 4,000, then that is pointing at the secondaries as the issue.
You need to read the plugs.
The color you are looking for on the electrode is a medium brown with a distinctive rust tint to it.
Get the plugs to look like that with just the primaries connected. Then work on the secondaries.
I don't know what the jetting should be on an Edelbrock. On a Holley that's a different story.
It could well be that you have enrichened the secondaries more that the engine can use.
This is the yacht harbor BRESKENS at the entry of the river SCHELDE towards ANTWERP.
May have found something : pulled quick the driver side plugs this morning , and 3 are dry dark brown but 1 is black and wet ... gonne try new plugs this evening. Bad plug or fouled to almost not working with the bad distributor ?
May have found something : pulled quick the driver side plugs this morning , and 3 are dry dark brown but 1 is black and wet ... gonne try new plugs this evening. Bad plug or fouled to almost not working with the bad distributor ?
Change the plugs. There is only one ignition system I know of that will fire and clean up fouled plugs.
That's the Pantera-Electronics. The Ford, Petronix or the MSD will not fire fouled plugs.
You might want to use the AF-42 Motorcraft plugs right now until you have the other issues solved.
It won't foul up as quickly around town.
On the other hand it probably will work a little like an rpm limiter above 6,000 rpm.
It's a little hot for that engine with 36 degrees of advance BUT you will hear them blowing some of the carbon off of the valves if they are loaded up.
AF-32's are really what you want when the engine is right.
That's the Pantera-Electronics. The Ford, Petronix or the MSD will not fire fouled plugs.
You might want to use the AF-42 Motorcraft plugs right now until you have the other issues solved.
It won't foul up as quickly around town.
On the other hand it probably will work a little like an rpm limiter above 6,000 rpm.
It's a little hot for that engine with 36 degrees of advance BUT you will hear them blowing some of the carbon off of the valves if they are loaded up.
AF-32's are really what you want when the engine is right.
i had indeed a fouled plug on the second cilinder drivers side looking from the rear... so i changed the complete drivers side ( had only 4 new plugs Autolite 25 ) and after beeing garaged long time ( BMW CS adventures ) i tryed it yesterday...never feeled that car so pulling up to 6000 rpm ! problem resolved i think..what i learned, don't look at a plug the most easy to pull... you must check them all !
and yes, perhaps i need a set hotter... in daily traffic we can't get them keeping "clean"
and yes, perhaps i need a set hotter... in daily traffic we can't get them keeping "clean"
I am happy that your issues were ignition and they are now resolved.
I'm not getting commission from Jon Haas, owner of Pantera-Electronics but go to his website and look at the video of his ignition system firing and CLEANING the fouled plug.
As far as I know, it's the ONLY ignition system that does that.
If you had it in the car, you WOULD NOT have had to change ANY plugs. Consider that?
I'm not getting commission from Jon Haas, owner of Pantera-Electronics but go to his website and look at the video of his ignition system firing and CLEANING the fouled plug.
As far as I know, it's the ONLY ignition system that does that.
If you had it in the car, you WOULD NOT have had to change ANY plugs. Consider that?
and I'd still have eyebrows 
I like your glasses.
4V,
I think you have New York Doug and me (Calgary Doug) mixed up. I made the comment about singing my eyebrows off. And that was when I was in my twenties and considered myself immortal. I'm a lot wiser, more careful and cautious nowadays.
Doug M
I think you have New York Doug and me (Calgary Doug) mixed up. I made the comment about singing my eyebrows off. And that was when I was in my twenties and considered myself immortal. I'm a lot wiser, more careful and cautious nowadays.
Doug M
Well remember, it seems like anyone who has set up their own Webers at one time or another has been without their eyebrows.
When you are without eyebrows, you look surprised all of the time OR people presume you can play the banjo? Either way, people think you are a little "funny"?
I hate when that happens?
When you are without eyebrows, you look surprised all of the time OR people presume you can play the banjo? Either way, people think you are a little "funny"?
I hate when that happens?
did a nice trip with wifey and must say it's stays OK can pull very strong up 6000 rpm .
BUT... now i must focus on the carb i think .. mostly, when i schift up, there's a hesitation, some lean spot ? as if you drive a 2 gears automatic, for a second or 2 searching, then going full power ahead..
can pull very strong up 6000 rpm . BUT... now i must focus on the carb i think .. mostly, when i schift up, there's a hesitation, some lean spot ? as if you drive a 2 gears automatic, for a second or 2 searching, then going full power ahead..
Very difficult to diagnose from a distance but make sure that the accelerator pump lever is adjusted correctly.
Holleys are more adjustable than Webers are, but it could be a few things, including too slow of a power valve, or too big of a carb?
Holleys are more adjustable than Webers are, but it could be a few things, including too slow of a power valve, or too big of a carb?
i will have to experiment... carb is a new 650 Edelbrock .. so should work. I already played with the jets, not the springs witch work as power valves ! i have the set... time to play
had no time yet , but think i have to try stiffer springs , so they react more easely against the vacuum on the other side of the plungers.No vacuum should be up, freeing the jets holes from a "big" rod to a "small" rod , and the remeaning opening( = fuel) is larger...even now that car can already be called thursty
did a little rally today and car was pulling strong on the "bigger" roads, but on the smaller , sure when i got trapped behind a slower competitor , i had the feeling i'm running to rich , even got some stals at neutral.
I have the Autolite's 25... what should i try first , hotter plugs or downsize jets ?
I have the Autolite's 25... what should i try first , hotter plugs or downsize jets ?
If you have a Edelbrock get yourself a jet and rod kit, really worth the money. I had an AFB Carter which the Edelbrock is based on and the strip kit was really good. The rods allow you to tune it quite specifically to your engine. Some rods will allow more fuel at cruise and relatively less under power or vice versa depending on engine requirements. And it is so easy and quick to change.
i have the jet&rod kit from Edelbrock....
pulled some plugs and they were OK ! so i tought again why i loose still sometimes assisted brakes and wanted to check first the vacuum...
first tought was to check the manifold bolts... they are only hand tighted !
It are Allen keys , must see for the right types as i have only metric's at home ...
will do them this evening.
Perhaps the new ? gaskets "seated" and the bolts need a re-torq ? Bought the car that way and never crossed my mind to check those !
don't know if i had vac leaks/ lean mixture by that ?? let's hope and some tuning problems are solved !
pulled some plugs and they were OK ! so i tought again why i loose still sometimes assisted brakes and wanted to check first the vacuum...
first tought was to check the manifold bolts... they are only hand tighted !
It are Allen keys , must see for the right types as i have only metric's at home ...
will do them this evening.
Perhaps the new ? gaskets "seated" and the bolts need a re-torq ? Bought the car that way and never crossed my mind to check those !
don't know if i had vac leaks/ lean mixture by that ?? let's hope
and some tuning problems are solved !
needed to remove the carb to get acces to the manifold bolts...got them all on torque but recent drive proved no progress....above 4000 rpm sometimes irregular engine noise and feeling , sometimes no assisted brakes 
so all problems are still there.
Checking all i did see some fresh grease leaking on the inside rear axle passenger side ... drivers side is clean... so i already removed this evening the rear + 1 inch spacers to load the rear axles as by factory.I got them with the car ( not installed) and mounted them to get a more fluid line body-tires...but now afraid i loaded the bearings/gaskets to much... ???
I'm gonne forget a bit "the looks" and choose for OEM design... and see what happens. There is no play in it.. so far.
As far i see they can't be greased , so life time filling ??
so all problems are still there.
Checking all i did see some fresh grease leaking on the inside rear axle passenger side ...
drivers side is clean... so i already removed this evening the rear + 1 inch spacers to load the rear axles as by factory.I got them with the car ( not installed) and mounted them to get a more fluid line body-tires...but now afraid i loaded the bearings/gaskets to much... ???I'm gonne forget a bit "the looks" and choose for OEM design... and see what happens. There is no play in it.. so far.
As far i see they can't be greased , so life time filling ??