What's up back in Italy ?

When I talked to Santiago at his father's funeral, he told me that he believed it was not possible for DeTomaso to produce a new model or to be competitive in today's automotive world.

What you or I think is irrelevant - if that's the opinion of the guy in charge, that is what is going to happen.

What we have seen since is basically a result of that conviction, I am afraid.

I think I have to agree with Mr. DeTomaso. WIth all the regulations from all the countries and crash testing and emissions, it would just be no fun anymore.
If someone wanted to build a modern day Pantera, it would be selling for $150,000 or more. Look at the Saleen S7. Brand new car. Awesome car. Starts at $450K and goes up to just south of $700K. This isn't even like Masseratti and Bugatti that are even higher cost. Why would any automtive company in their right mind even attempt to make another Pantera? From a business standpoint it is a dead end.
So we need to just be thankfull that the Pantera ever even existed. We have no where to turn once they are all gone to the automtive graveyard.

I'm not sure I agree. This is the pub, so we are allowed to have debates here!

It's also easy to criticize someone when it isn't your money on the table, and I recognize that off that bat. But if the company will survive and have a future, it needs someone with a vision of how to pull that off.

There are plenty of companies, particularly in the UK, that have sprung up out of know-where and are producing excellent cars, although they aren't cheap. Noble and TVR sell for under a hundred grand. Lotus sells larger volume for an even lower price. Caterham has made a living for years selling specialty fun-mobiles.

A company wouldn't try to make another Pantera, as I am not sure that a low-cost supercar would be feasible. But the Guara and Pantera II weren't low-cost, nor were the 80's Panteras.

They have a history, and from a marketing standpoint that is worth a lot. Not as much as Santiago is apparently asking, it is better than starting your company from scratch.

Could I personally resurrect the DeTomaso company? I doubt it, therefore I can't criticize Santiago for not trying. But could SOMEONE, with cunning, drive, ambition, and vision could probably make it work. Actually, that sounds a lot like Alejandro, doesn't it????

I think the key to bringing pack a Pantera would be to get it set up as a chasis built car. Superformance builds a very well designed Cobra; so much so Carol Shelby is going to have them start building their cars:

http://www.superformance.com/

These cars are imported as "Kit" cars but calling them a kit is a stretch. 98% of the buyers are teamed up with engine builders and are handed a car ready to drive.

Peter brock was brough on board to finish the design of the Daytona Coupe. He wasn't finished with the car when they raced it in the 60's. He was given the control and R&D to finish designing the car he wanted to build in the 60's. They did 200mph in street trim with A/C first time out.

The car would not have to meet the same requirements a "factory built" car would. Some one such as SF could put the R&D into making the Pantera an outstanding car.

Personally I would love to see them start with the original design and vision from the 71-74 car. I don't think the 80's car has half the charm or character. But I think there is still a lot that could be done with the earlier model. Certainly there is a wealth of info from what people have done to their cars both asthetically and mechanically.

Gary

WHOA!!! Hang on!! I just got a fantasitcally good idea!! A genius level one!!
They are gonna stop making the GT this year. Ford has been making collector series cars for about ten years now. Maybe if we all sign a petition, they will re-body the GT to look like a Pantera!!! That way they can make it a show car, have it to dealers in another year or so. Then all we have to do is pop the 150K or so and we are in like flint!!
Wow. I amaze myself sometimes.

We have this debate about every 3 months, don't we? lol.......

My input, you can either build an expensive car, sold at boutiques to very few people, OR you can build a reasonably priced car the common man (like me) can at least dream about owning some day.

If you can't build a new "Pantera" and sell it at Corvette pricing, I say don't even try. The Corvette is still the competition.

Some large manufacturer like Ford (if they were in good shape financially) could build a new mid engine uni-body, outsource the transaxle and supply the remaining parts from the corporate parts bin. If GM can sell a 'Vette for $60K, any other large manufacturer could do so as well, IF the will to do so was there.

As far as overpriced super cars are concerned, the Noble proves they are dinosaurs. Buy a Noble, and with the money you save, purchase a villa on the Riviera.

your friend on the DTBB

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
WHOA!!! Hang on!! I just got a fantasitcally good idea!! A genius level one!!
They are gonna stop making the GT this year. Ford has been making collector series cars for about ten years now. Maybe if we all sign a petition, they will re-body the GT to look like a Pantera!!! That way they can make it a show car, have it to dealers in another year or so. Then all we have to do is pop the 150K or so and we are in like flint!!
Wow. I amaze myself sometimes.

Detom I am afraid the Pantera came at the wrong time. It doesn't have the notoriety the GT had/has. Not enough people are familiar with it to have the following it would need.

Gary

Yeah Gary. You are right. My time is over. I couldn't even buy a Pantera until about ten years ago and by that time it was almost twenty five years old. So twenty five years from now I might be able to afford a Ford GT??? Heck I will be dead by then.

I think it's amazing the car ever made production. Ford could have not done it, could have evaluated it harder durring preproduction and production, pushed the development and delayed it. If they were still working out bugs in late 72 they probably would have scrapped it all together. Good thing DeTomaso was able to rush it through or it probably never would have been built. Had it been built in the 60's with a larger need for a track car they may have taken it more seriously and it may have been a contender or a replacement for the the GT. The early 70's were a fickle time.

Gary

If I remember right the decision to make it a Lincoln Mercury was to try and boost sales of that division. Sort of like what they have been wanting to do for the last several years now. It would be great timing for them to make a Pantera out of the GT tooling that they are only going to wind up throwing away anyway. The point isn't to sell a whole lot of Panteras, it is in selling a whole lot of whatever it is the mercurys are now a days. Fusions I think. Don't know because Mercurys have become so boring. Which is the point, they don't have a halo car, an image, to help move their other iron.

Yea but the problem is most people just don't know what a Pantera is.

The Pantera is not coming back, Ford has already said that. Ford is bleeding so bad now it's going to be a long time for something like Mercury or Lincoln to get a "Halo" car. It's hard to justify when you're laying off a lot of people and closing plants admitting that you've completely been dominated in some the markets you used to dominate. Remember when everyone had a Taurus? Now the Explorer is treading water. I'll bet before long Mercury goes the way of Oldsmobile or Plymouth. Isn't Jaguar hemmoraging too? Ford will be recovering from Jac Nasser for a long time. The only way DT could possibly survive would be as a small niche type of manufacturer, most likely bought out by some one in Europe. Are there really any assets to the company outside of the name? I've seen pictures of a rotten, old plant. I remember reading in one of my Pantera mags the BK works different in Italy than it does here. If some one had a plan, we should have heard by now. Oh well, at least I have the car I've wanted for about 35 years.

Gary you are absolutely right. BUt when they see my car they sure want it real bad. And even though they don't know what it is, they assume it to be many times more expensive.
Yeah Mr. Korina, I hate that Jack Nassar bastard. If Ford goes down the tubes, I will hunt him to the ends of the earth!! No I won't, I am too old and fat to catch him now, but if I was younger I would. Hell Honda will probably buy the DeTomaso name and put it on some fruit salad ecofriendly hybird car. Now I am depressed. I hope you guys are happy.

And that is why I think the rolling chasis by a major company such as Superformance would be the way to go.

Yea, All the Amercan car companies are hurting. Years of unions and Japs building better cars with more american parts on our own soil.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie McCall:
But could SOMEONE, with cunning, drive, ambition, and vision could probably make it work.

Don't forget the most important attribute. A bottomless pocket!

I'm sure you've all heard the famous line, How do you make a small fortune in Car racing? Start with a large fortune ! You guys have brought up some interesting questions. I think it could be argued that a new Pantera already exists in the Noble. A mid engined, Ford powered, very cool sports car. I think an argument could be made that the Qvale was the next Pantera or Mangusta or what ever but I still see the add in Autoweek every week where they still can't give away the ones they made 5 years ago. How about a Panoz? That's a Ford V8 powered small manufacturer car. The spirit of the Pantera lives, it just has a different name now, The guys who had the name squandered it. There's a bright side here though. We still have the wonderful cars. I'm okay with that.

Detom,

I see your point but nothing is impossible .. back when the PANTERA was in the concept phase I GUARRANTEE the same thoughts went thru Detomaso at some piont also. But never say never.

George I agree the Corvette is the basis of cost and sorry this is a PANTERA site but that Corvette is a dam good car for the price. It beats cars 2 3 4 times its price on a daily basis on the TRACK.

COMP2 I personally own a 1988 AUTOCRAFT COBRA it has a 88 5,0 EFI and as many have written the small block was hard to beat. Well with out a long description of the SPECS of the car its very fast. It is a manufacturered car thats perfect in every way.

CHARLIE , I agree nothing is impossible and maybe SANTIAGO is not the man to do it. Statistics show that LIFETIME businesses die with the owner. Is this the case. I personaly know there is a lot of money in selling a successful business. The iron is hot but slowly cooling, the owner with the vision os gone. The company needs a vibrant, driven, person with some American Marketing to build and sell these cars. My perspective the PANTERA is NOT a very difficult car to produce. The basis is there. To start from scratch is crazy.

But a large auto car co is not the co to do it. It will be a small niche co .. exactly what SHelby and Detomaso started out as but I dont think any pagre co will pick them up like SHelby and Detomsaso. Those days are gone.

One last thing and dont shoot me for saying this but " was the Pantera as successful on the TRACK as Shelby and Ford them selves "

What was the saying " what wins on sunday sells on monday ?"

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:

COMP2 I personally own a 1988 AUTOCRAFT COBRA it has a 88 5,0 EFI and as many have written the small block was hard to beat. Well with out a long description of the SPECS of the car its very fast. It is a manufacturered car thats perfect in every way.

It's not just the engine though; (Actually my bro put a 675rwhp bored stroked 460 in his) but the idea is a rolling chasis; not "kit car" as such. It needs to be a good car that doesn't have to get by emissions and crash test without years of R&D as well as a car that is "almost" done off the assembly line so that guys who are not wrench turners can get them easily. Pay for rolling chasis, they mate you with a company that installs the engine, completes the car an wola.

Gary

Is racing history that much of a concern?? Understandably Porsche, Ferrar, Lotus etc... but Lamborghini came out of left field. Who were they?
Bugatti isnt Bugatti and neither is Ferrari or Lamborghini really in the family. Lets hope there is some super millionaire De Tomaso lover out there with dreams of automotive conquest. Honestly, why wouldnt it work on a small level??? From what I recall Mr. De Tomaso himself would build cars on an order basis. No real need to stockpile cars.

quote:

Years of unions

Oh PLEEEEASE. Paying a man a living wage and providing for the health of his family and an honorable retirement are not what got the US automakers in trouble.

Without unions fighting the battles and setting the stage a hundred years ago, you and your school age kids would still be working in dark, dank, filty, unheated/uncooled sweat shops with no benefits, no health care, no holidays, no retirement pension and no chance.

I'll stop before I get all the way up on my soapbox. You don't want me to really get going.

Larry

Larry, Unions arn't doing what they were designed for. They run business into the ground. It's why airlines bankrupt every few years, it's why pay scales are so dramatically different from one end to the other, and it's why this country has driven out such an incredible amount of industry and why it will not come back.

Sorry, I won't argue any more with you larry. I realize differences in opinions and this is not the place for it so I won't say another word about it (I won't be upset if you have the last word either).

Gary

I run a UNION shop. The Airlines falling was not soley due to UNION employees, it was combination of 10 million dollar a year executives with bonus incentives who never came to work and lazy UNION employees who take 1 hour coffe breaks and 2 hour lunches and sleep in the baggage area, instead of dillenegntly doing there job.

Believe it or not 1/2 of the UNION men are the ones who CARRY the other 1/2 of the dead beats. THATS A FACT. The most talented guys I have ever met have been in UNION Training and some time in their life. But I have seen a lot of UNION men get promoted to hire levels or leave the industry becuase their Talent and brains or they got tired of CARRYING the dead beats. How do you explain that they all get paid the same rate ? They should be paid based on merit. I saved myself 50k last year by UNION negocitations, I fought for them to bring to work their own CHANELOCKS, POCKETS LEVELS, and TAPE MEASURES. Other wise we were supplying them and they were stealing them every week.

Not sure how we got on the UNION issue, but one thing I'm very sure about if DETOMASO was ever revived it would be a small company and NON UNION.

My 2 cents.

Ron

LOL Ron, I am sorry if I got us down this road. My lips are sealed.

Otherwise interesting in the global economy is China. I have mentioned before their escalading and predicted energy growth. Everyone knows you can go to HF buy a Chinese vise that is so cheap that you can just about get your money back at the scrap yard.

China has been practically giving away their recources. They have been caping the amount industry can charge for electricity and strongly controling many other prices.

As far as energy in China, they are begining to loose their way to larger amounts of energy consumption. Their energy cost will soon rise.

As far as recources such as steel, they are not mining it fast enough, running out of some supplies and begining to import it.

The cost of operations in China is going to slowly begin to increase.

Intersting stuff.
Gary

Gary,

No insult taken, no need to apoligiize, this is information that we are all exposed to and unless we live in a bubble its good stuff that effects the auto industry.


CHINA ! LOL wow thats good stuff too ! We are watching a text book case of economic growth like the US starting with the industrial revolution.

They now have labor shortages, which drives up WAGES, they now have resource shortages, which drives up the price to import, the US now has a shortage of cement due to CHINA which Cement companies are on STAMPS where they have a quota they can buy after they use it up they are done for the year. Steel and copper they are sucking it up. Prices are rising. Indirectly some of our industries are boming.

The problem is most of our yunger generation dont want to get their hands dirty. I am the TREASURER of an Apprentice Commitee. Yea UNION but I'm the toughest advocate of UNIONISM. The UNION men use UNION's to their advantage, I remind them of the rules everyday and FIRE them on the spot and pay them off in CASH when they are 5 minutes late etc.

CHINA give them time the 85% of there population that are Peseants are learning real quick that they too can drive BMW's ... oh and maybe PANTERA's I had to say that to make this thread offcial ... LOL

Ron

quote:

The problem is most of our yunger generation dont want to get their hands dirty.

Ron

Now that is a something you see everywhere. It seems doing work is always "some one elses job" doesn't it.

Gary

But in light of all things there are people who will speculate and buy a company like DETOMASO and start building these cars again. Both large and small companys are doing it.

My gut feeling is with DETOMASO its not a matter of if there is a buyer ... from what I see and read ... its a matter of does the SELLER really want to SELL ?

Ron

I have some strong opinions on the union debate but I came to talk about Pantera's

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
But in light of all things there are people who will speculate and buy a company like DETOMASO and start building these cars again. Both large and small companys are doing it.

My gut feeling is with DETOMASO its not a matter of if there is a buyer ... from what I see and read ... its a matter of does the SELLER really want to SELL ?

Ron

Ron, you hit the nail on the head. DeTomaso has apparently turned down legitimate offers. As a result, they have the name but not a whole lot else...