Here's a pic of the motor with a 3 deg. nose down attitude. The heads are close to touching but still with a hair of clearance 1/16 inch?
3 deg. is way more than you would want but I think neutral to 1.5 deg and you would still have adequate clearance to the inner fenders.
BY THE WAY I have No oil pan on this block so that has yet to be figured in.
Good point that I can't answer. Big, wide, tall engine that's heavy for its stock displacement! I would do whatever it takes to get that thing down as far as the frame would accept. Swap-shops cut and build box-reliefs into the back edge of Pantera inner rear fender wells for head clearance, and saw off unused lugs etc from heads where they interfere. This is needed especially for post-'80s Panteras because their square-edge inner fender panels seem a little larger than the smooth stamped ones used in '71-76 Panteras. I know of one GT5-S that needed boxes done for a pro 4.6 mod-motor conversion 15 years ago. Most of the extra tire/wheel width in wide-body cars is outboard so there is some room to do this. Changing plugs is easier than on a 351-C!
Good points BossWrench.
I'm leaning towards notching the inner fenders and lowering the Motor/Trany
But......... I still have a lot of details to work out.
I'm leaning towards notching the inner fenders and lowering the Motor/Trany
But......... I still have a lot of details to work out.
Turn the ZF upside down like in the Mangusta.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Turn the ZF upside down like in the Mangusta.
^^I like the way this guy thinks.
Looks like my dimensions I extrapolated from the other car into the Pantera were pretty close based on your intake pictures.
Thanks for posting all of these pictures.
Thanks for posting all of these pictures.
The real fit issues, (I.M.O.) are at the front at the firewall. If you want to start exploring this then you can learn a lot with just the block and the front cover.
I've cut the firewall so that it's symmetrical.
Extends as far on the drivers side as the passengers side. I have not changed the passenger side just the drivers.
In this picture the engine is nose down about 1 Degree. I think I can avoid notching the top of the firewall if I set it at 1.5 Deg Down. It will be very close so....not holding my breath.
I've cut the firewall so that it's symmetrical.
Extends as far on the drivers side as the passengers side. I have not changed the passenger side just the drivers.
In this picture the engine is nose down about 1 Degree. I think I can avoid notching the top of the firewall if I set it at 1.5 Deg Down. It will be very close so....not holding my breath.
Attachments
Images (1)
You could have them make a pan to fit the chassis. That one there is a mustang style. Those tanks will not fit between the frame rails.
All it entails is mating the Pantera 10qt pan to the Coyotte flange. Why dont you call them? They may have already done one for a customer?
Its going to be cheaper than cutting up that pan, making it fit, then sending it out to be coated?
Having used both the Canton and the Aviaid pans, my observation is that the finished product of the Canton is noticeably better on the Canton. It is also less expensive.
Given the choice between the two. I would take the Canton. There is no difference in the engineering designs of the pans.
The Armondo is the most expensive now. Higher cost of living on the border in Texas I guess? More ammo needed? Have to ask Perry about that?
All it entails is mating the Pantera 10qt pan to the Coyotte flange. Why dont you call them? They may have already done one for a customer?
Its going to be cheaper than cutting up that pan, making it fit, then sending it out to be coated?
Having used both the Canton and the Aviaid pans, my observation is that the finished product of the Canton is noticeably better on the Canton. It is also less expensive.
Given the choice between the two. I would take the Canton. There is no difference in the engineering designs of the pans.
The Armondo is the most expensive now. Higher cost of living on the border in Texas I guess? More ammo needed? Have to ask Perry about that?
I have no idea if the Coyote is capable of this, but is a dry sump an option for this motor? That would get rid of most of the depth you are fighting -- but again, I have no idea if this has any chance of working.
Best of luck!!!!
Best of luck!!!!
I know this is probably pretty expensive, but here is information on a dry sump setup. Don't have experience with this setup at all, so I can't talk about it, but it is at least a start:
Ford Modular Dry Sump
Best of luck!!!!!
Ford Modular Dry Sump
Best of luck!!!!!
You might want to check out this blog
http://johnspantera.blogspot.c...4_03_01_archive.html
or perhaps contact Dan Schoneck who put a Coyote in a Pantera back in 2012. www.schoneckcomposites.com
http://johnspantera.blogspot.c...4_03_01_archive.html
or perhaps contact Dan Schoneck who put a Coyote in a Pantera back in 2012. www.schoneckcomposites.com
The Coyote can be dry sumped but would require modification/removal of the stock oil pump.The remote filter adapters would work nicely for inlet feed. I plan to swap the dry sump system off of my old motor onto the Coyote. I am debating cnc machining a dry sump pan to suit my needs. The pan is very tight to the frame rails and may not allow typical side exit sump pickups. As far as I know Dan never finished his swap. I know he was selling parts from it. Not sure exactly what happened.
Very cool!
Flipping the intake 180 deg.
Thus far this is looking pretty easy to do.
There are a couple of minor modifications to do.
There are 2 tabs at the back of the manifold. They are just points to zip tie the wiring harness to. Clip them off. Also there are 2 alignment dowels molded into the bottom of the intake. Clip them off and trim flush. I also found it necessary to take a disk grinder to an area that was contacting the 90 deg. water neck. just a 1/32 trim. There should still be ample plastic wall thickness.
Thus far this is looking pretty easy to do.
There are a couple of minor modifications to do.
There are 2 tabs at the back of the manifold. They are just points to zip tie the wiring harness to. Clip them off. Also there are 2 alignment dowels molded into the bottom of the intake. Clip them off and trim flush. I also found it necessary to take a disk grinder to an area that was contacting the 90 deg. water neck. just a 1/32 trim. There should still be ample plastic wall thickness.
Attachments
Images (1)
Urethane-insulated motor mounts in a Pantera are a bad idea. The heat coming off the headers will melt the urethane normally used, especially on the left side. Hall used to sell them and I've helped chisel a couple of mounts apart after open track events. The left side is particularly troublesome because the left mount needs to be taken apart in order to remove it from around the shift shaft. But when the urethane melts and flows like pudding around all the parts, the mount-halves cannot be easily separated. So you're left chiseling and hacking melted-and-resolidified urethane off while its under the header and behind the shift rod. No oxyacetylene torch was available or I'd have used it! I suggest synthetic rubber mount insulators. Urethane might work for Mustangs with different around-engine air flows but not Panteras. It does work on ZF mounts since the heat is far less there.
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Urethane-insulated motor mounts in a Pantera are a bad idea. The heat coming off the headers will melt the urethane normally used, especially on the left side. Hall used to sell them and I've helped chisel a couple of mounts apart after open track events. The left side is particularly troublesome because the left mount needs to be taken apart in order to remove it from around the shift shaft. But when the urethane melts and flows like pudding around all the parts, the mount-halves cannot be easily separated. So you're left chiseling and hacking melted-and-resolidified urethane off while its under the header and behind the shift rod. No oxyacetylene torch was available or I'd have used it! I suggest synthetic rubber mount insulators. Urethane might work for Mustangs with different around-engine air flows but not Panteras. It does work on ZF mounts since the heat is far less there.
Do 180 headers where the tubes immediately curve up and away from the mounts.
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Urethane-insulated motor mounts in a Pantera are a bad idea. The heat coming off the headers will melt the urethane normally used, especially on the left side. Hall used to sell them and I've helped chisel a couple of mounts apart after open track events. The left side is particularly troublesome because the left mount needs to be taken apart in order to remove it from around the shift shaft. But when the urethane melts and flows like pudding around all the parts, the mount-halves cannot be easily separated. So you're left chiseling and hacking melted-and-resolidified urethane off while its under the header and behind the shift rod. No oxyacetylene torch was available or I'd have used it! I suggest synthetic rubber mount insulators. Urethane might work for Mustangs with different around-engine air flows but not Panteras. It does work on ZF mounts since the heat is far less there.
Ah good to know thanks.
Going to use a cable shifter to simplify fit issues.
180 headers are a plan for next year but I've got an "almost off the shelf" header that I'm looking at. I'll post it if it works.
I will wrap them and work in some sort of heat shield for the mounts.
Notching the inner fenders.
I am going to create more room so I can sit the motor as low as I can but still have the ability to leave the motor/Trans in it's neutral Fow/Aft position.
I'm thinking of using some square tubing and welding it in like this paper mock up I have here.
I am going to create more room so I can sit the motor as low as I can but still have the ability to leave the motor/Trans in it's neutral Fow/Aft position.
I'm thinking of using some square tubing and welding it in like this paper mock up I have here.
Attachments
Images (1)
quote:I'm thinking of using some square tubing and welding it in like this paper mock up I have here.
Good, creative thinking.
I do however think it may require some serious revamping (or new fabrication) of the wheel house brace bar which appears to have its effectiveness (in anchoring the suspension and shock mounts) diminished by your modification.
Do you have something already in mind to keep the suspension anchor points well located, or am I not reading your photos correctly?
How much of the wheelhouse (inner fenders) are you intending to remove?
quote:Originally posted by desert_detomaso:quote:I'm thinking of using some square tubing and welding it in like this paper mock up I have here.
Good, creative thinking.
I do however think it may require some serious revamping (or new fabrication) of the wheel house brace bar which appears to have its effectiveness (in anchoring the suspension and shock mounts) diminished by your modification.
Do you have something already in mind to keep the suspension anchor points well located, or am I not reading your photos correctly?
How much of the wheelhouse (inner fenders) are you intending to remove?
It may be possible to use the engine as the mount for the suspension. Formula 1 and Indy cars have done this successfully.
agustaboy, depending on how much interference you are expecting to the inner fender housing there are a couple simple tricks to move the engine and transaxle forward to consider that may be preferable to cutting into the chassis structure.
If you only need approximately 3/4" you can bend the tranny mounts into an "S" shape. This is typically done to move the transaxle aft, but I don't see why it couldn't be used to move it forward. If you need more than that you may need to fab new trans mounts. Ford Big Block swaps typically move the transaxle ~3" from neutral; I have not heard of problems with this amount of misalignment, but I would expect increased U-joint friction and stress with increasing misalignment.
You may also be able to move just the engine forward by putting a spacer between the bellhousing and engine. I have seen approximately 1" (?) thick adapters used with engine swaps. I am also using a QuickTime bellhousing and found it preferable to use a hydraulic throwout bearing rather than fabricating the clutch actuator slave mount.
For clearance up front I fabricated an alternator/AC mount and used an aftermarket pulley to suck these accessories as close as possible to the engine. I also used an electric water pump, mounted behind the radiator. I added 1/4" thick wooden strips (and longer bolts) to space-out the firewall access door.
Every Ford Big Block conversion that I have seen cuts into the wheel house structure, like you are planning. By using a few tricks I was able to keep the structure unmodified and fit the much longer/larger Big Block with the transaxle in the "stock" location.
Thank you for posting your project. It is fun to see your work and problem-solving.
Matt
If you only need approximately 3/4" you can bend the tranny mounts into an "S" shape. This is typically done to move the transaxle aft, but I don't see why it couldn't be used to move it forward. If you need more than that you may need to fab new trans mounts. Ford Big Block swaps typically move the transaxle ~3" from neutral; I have not heard of problems with this amount of misalignment, but I would expect increased U-joint friction and stress with increasing misalignment.
You may also be able to move just the engine forward by putting a spacer between the bellhousing and engine. I have seen approximately 1" (?) thick adapters used with engine swaps. I am also using a QuickTime bellhousing and found it preferable to use a hydraulic throwout bearing rather than fabricating the clutch actuator slave mount.
For clearance up front I fabricated an alternator/AC mount and used an aftermarket pulley to suck these accessories as close as possible to the engine. I also used an electric water pump, mounted behind the radiator. I added 1/4" thick wooden strips (and longer bolts) to space-out the firewall access door.
Every Ford Big Block conversion that I have seen cuts into the wheel house structure, like you are planning. By using a few tricks I was able to keep the structure unmodified and fit the much longer/larger Big Block with the transaxle in the "stock" location.
Thank you for posting your project. It is fun to see your work and problem-solving.
Matt