Mangusta Engine Removal and Rebuild

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...a-inc&item=22078  Here is the kit from Hall for the ZF wiring. $75 and someone who has a clue

Btw, I was surprised to see there is now apparently a really correct repro oil pan, Scott Drake makes a 5 quart version of the C5AZ-6675-BL for 64-69 that appears to Not have the kidney dimples (the impressions that most repros have on the left and right rear sides). I had to look for a long time before I found a decent used original part to modify. Some really talented guy generously made this drawing for the pointer a few years ago, I won't name names, he may have the copyright   .

  Repro bell housing spacers are cheap and available, in case yours is scraped. Since the tranny and the engine may be mated for another 50 years, it may be a great opportunity to powderpaint these and have them in place forever....

  But plan B, if compression is still lively in the engine and the only issue is a freeze plug...or if your guy can get the work done before Spring weather and get you back on the road, all is good...Lee

@bosswrench posted:

MH, while the powertrain is out, you could pull the top cover and check for safety wire in your ring gear bolts. This is usually not as much of a problem with Mangustas as it is on Panteras, but with your run of luck with the car recently.... If you're careful in pulling the cover, you won't need to replace the gasket. The clutch pivot thingy on the block is a Mustang attachment. And check the jackshaft before replacing it. Seems like the center bearing is the one that goes out.

Top cover being #103 in this drawing correct?  I'm on the edge of my comfort threshold here, which is fine, just want to make sure I'm tearing into the right bits

I replaced all the bearings in the jackshaft a few years ago, but need to replace the one in the idler pulley since it recently began squealing...

doesn't look like a goose needs the clutch pivot hole... as far as I can tell...

Thanks,

MH

@leea posted:

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...a-inc&item=22078  Here is the kit from Hall for the ZF wiring. $75 and someone who has a clue

Btw, I was surprised to see there is now apparently a really correct repro oil pan, Scott Drake makes a 5 quart version of the C5AZ-6675-BL for 64-69 that appears to Not have the kidney dimples (the impressions that most repros have on the left and right rear sides). I had to look for a long time before I found a decent used original part to modify. Some really talented guy generously made this drawing for the pointer a few years ago, I won't name names, he may have the copyright   .

  Repro bell housing spacers are cheap and available, in case yours is scraped. Since the tranny and the engine may be mated for another 50 years, it may be a great opportunity to powderpaint these and have them in place forever....

  But plan B, if compression is still lively in the engine and the only issue is a freeze plug...or if your guy can get the work done before Spring weather and get you back on the road, all is good...Lee

Sounds like there was no safety wire on the ring bolts from the factory.

The oil pan was replaced by a former owner so I don't have the original.  I'm seriously thinking of mothballing the original engine intact and dropping a crate in place, just make it look stock, but keep the original for historical purposes.

Bellhousing spacers?  ya lost me there...

on the ring bolts, we're talking #907 here right?

Thanks for the suggestions and info, keep 'em coming!

MH

I'm studying Johnny Woods engine bay work heavily here:

https://www.harlywax.co.uk/De-...on-Johnny-Woods.html

So thankful he documented his incredible work!

MH

@jmardy posted:

Do Mangustas have an engine number tag like the Pantera? Is that an issue for value?

I'm running a Progression Ignition and am a huge fan:
https://progressionignition.co...mall-cap-distributor

The ability to see live timing and adjust on the fly is great. I have 1000 miles or so on it and it's been flawless. Size-wise very similar to the MSD Pro billet. No interference issues with Pantera using stock or aftermarket air cleaners.

Did you have any issues with the tach with this distributor?  Some of the others I've seen required an adapter of sorts

MH

Nope, no issues whatsoever. PO's engine builder had installed an MSD Pro Billet (without a tach adapter) and it worked fine. Replacing it with the Progression worked just the same. Same wiring, direct plug-in replacement.

@mkeh posted:

I'm studying Johnny Woods engine bay work heavily here:

https://www.harlywax.co.uk/De-...on-Johnny-Woods.html

So thankful he documented his incredible work!

MH

That was amazing! I love a good build blog.

Jmardy, there are only 2 tags on the engine, but 3 unique IDs--standard tags were the carburetor and then the engine ID on the intake manifold. These are available as repro. The key ID is the Detomaso stamp on the intake. The block  on '1076 was stamped with the machining date, of course all the castings have date codes and it seems that the first week in July 1968 is pretty common (but nobody can say exclusive) for the J-codes that went into Mangustas.

Mike, the Veglia tach will work as long as you are taking the tach signal from the  coil. Otherwise, for about $25 you can buy "tach amplifiers" that take a pure +12v or digital signal and basically include their own coil to burst up to something the tach will hear. (Wish I'd known this when I put the electromotive ignition on my 308...)

The bell housing spacer is just that flat disc between the engine and the ZF, and likely the first thing that gets touch from below...But cheap and simple at this moment to replace.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/wiring-gearbox is of course the best information on the ZF safety wiring...(where else but here? ). My guy replaced the differential carrier bearings , its a great time just to replace 50 year old seals--esp, between the shifter box and the ZF case, the dust boot at the shift box, whatever.

@mkeh posted:

Thanks Nate, good to know the headers might be Hiding an issue.  I have a spare seat of heat shields...  Will have to see if they can be fitted to keep it stock looking.

Are there conflicts fitting the jackshaft to aftermarket intake manifolds?

Thanks guys

MH

Afaik, fitting an assembled jackshaft on a previously installed stock engine is no problem - - no need to remove the front pulley.  There will be plenty of space to position the jackshaft assembly where it needs to be. 

No matter what manifold you're running, however, if you want to PULL the engine w/o removing the jackshaft first, you'll need to work the front pulley off during the process to clear the chassis structure. 

I was planning to re-re-install my engine with the jackshaft in place (...install front pulley before it's all the way in....), but reconsidering things now given Mark's comment about possible smashed glass!!

@nate posted:

Afaik, fitting an assembled jackshaft on a previously installed stock engine is no problem - - no need to remove the front pulley.  There will be plenty of space to position the jackshaft assembly where it needs to be.

No matter what manifold you're running, however, if you want to PULL the engine w/o removing the jackshaft first, you'll need to work the front pulley off during the process to clear the chassis structure.

I was planning to re-re-install my engine with the jackshaft in place (...install front pulley before it's all the way in....), but reconsidering things now given Mark's comment about possible smashed glass!!

Nate, I replaced the bearings in my jackshaft a few years ago.  I had no problem removing and reinstalling the assembled jackshaft with the engine in the car.   I would recommend adding it after the engine is installed.  Just one more thing to get in the way or to get damaged while putting the engine back in the car.

MH

@leea posted:

Jmardy, there are only 2 tags on the engine, but 3 unique IDs--standard tags were the carburetor and then the engine ID on the intake manifold. These are available as repro. The key ID is the Detomaso stamp on the intake. The block  on '1076 was stamped with the machining date, of course all the castings have date codes and it seems that the first week in July 1968 is pretty common (but nobody can say exclusive) for the J-codes that went into Mangustas.

Mike, the Veglia tach will work as long as you are taking the tach signal from the  coil. Otherwise, for about $25 you can buy "tach amplifiers" that take a pure +12v or digital signal and basically include their own coil to burst up to something the tach will hear. (Wish I'd known this when I put the electromotive ignition on my 308...)

The bell housing spacer is just that flat disc between the engine and the ZF, and likely the first thing that gets touch from below...But cheap and simple at this moment to replace.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/wiring-gearbox is of course the best information on the ZF safety wiring...(where else but here? ). My guy replaced the differential carrier bearings , its a great time just to replace 50 year old seals--esp, between the shifter box and the ZF case, the dust boot at the shift box, whatever.

Lee, thanks for the link on safety wiring the ring bolts.  Seems like a task I can handle.  He did mention torquing the bolts, but not the torque #'s...   Does anyone have them?   I'm guessing gaskets are readily available, so might as well replace them too...

MH

After much deliberation and discussion with friends, I've decided to stay stock and have the engine refreshed.  I will use Johnny Woods web page (link above) as a guide to restore the engine bay while the engine is out.  I have no intention of racing the car and as we all know, it can provide more than enough excitement in stock form.

I will have the ZF vapor blasted and all the brackets and pulleys and such replated or painted as per original. 

Is the clutch disc a standard item or unobtainium spec?  What about U-Joints?

I'm open to "While you're in there" suggestions as well.  Right now I'm making my shopping list.

I might as well address the front end too.  Ball joints, tie rods, etc.  If anyone has recommendations on part #'s or suppliers you have my attention.

MH

M!ke, the only 'wrong' thing would be to keep your car off the Houston streets for too long...Here is the longer story on clutches, short story is that the cover is standard Ford and a Chevy disc works but may need machining back the nose...I think Steve published a picture somewhere in another thread.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...223#1598208420756223

Steve had motor mounts and u-joints, the U-joints are supposedly common with Chevy truck. Should be easy to confirm with your favorite parts guy.

Front ball joints are here, https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...angusta-ball-joints, see Dick's part numbers but also note that fiat Plus C. Obert  http://www.fiatplus.com/LOWER-...KIT-0005880297N.html

distinguishes which version of Fiat 124 is a mate for the Mangusta (at least 8ma1076 needed the <40mm ball joint).

I bought front suspension poly bushings from Hall Pantera. Renault R4 rack (Dauphine) supplies the steering rack boots. Tie rods I thought were from a Fiat 600, but the parts manual lists them from Fiat 1300 (as are the stub axles themselves, see below).

Re: other things to do while the engine is out--I'm a big fan of replacing everything old and rubbery--You might use the opportunity to re-grease the Heim joints and replace the plasticized heim joint booties--stretching these on with grease is actually very easy. Guessing that all the water hoses are old, just a lot easier to replace the lines now. And with all coolant out, treat/repaint the water tubes while its easy. Paint or WD40 on the bell housing (I went with paint), a pair of new motor mounts. And yeah, not a bad time to pressure wash and even hit what you can of the frame with epoxy primer-- Next to replacing rubber, I'm next a fan of rust prevention (! esp, cleaning anywhere that holds water, drilling drain holes and bathing anything that could hold water in POR15). But not much is coincident with the engine work and you just don't have to spend much more focus than just getting the car running again.  Everything else can be its own project...

Ipsco have a gasket set:
https://ipsco.org/newsite/prod...gasket-complete-set/

“I will have the ZF vapor blasted….”

I assume you mean blasting with dry ice pellets?

I was able to find a local business that did that for my ZF during the reassembly of 2511. It gave a very clean surface but it didn’t return everything to the same uniform appearance. It seems cast aluminum pieces, after 50 years of use, are hard to return to original.

I chose to do something others have used before me, a colored Carnuba wax called rub n buff. As others advised me, it seems to be holding up quite well and allows the bell housing and the ZF case to have matching appearance

left side is with the wax, right side is the dry ice blasted finish.  there is a darker gray wax available that would be a closer match to the cleaned surface, but I opted for a little bit more shine

it comes in a 1/2 ounce tube and the coverage is phenomenal. I used one tube and maybe 1/4 of a second tube for the entire project

Larry

Larry - that looks absolutely fantastic. I was tearing up buffing pads by the carton trying to get into corners with various polishing compounds. The house was knee deep in fluff mouse droppings. And at the end there are still areas I am not happy with.

I will absolutely try this.

BTW I have a scape in exactly the same place on the front transverse tube.

Must have been the same speed bump.....

Probably not a scrape, most likely a rub spot from speedometer cable or emergency brake cable.

Can you tell us what the lower star bolts are - are they stainless ?

Back to the jackshaft assembly for a moment...I've always tried to install the jackshaft and intake manifold at the same time, torqueing all bolts in the proper sequence, and avoided removing the jackshaft alone later for fear of promoting manifold leaks.

Thinking now this is excessive caution.....but it begs a question:  If the jackshaft is removed by removing it's four main bolts/screws, should the 8 other manifold bolts be loosened and ultimately re-tightened in proper sequence, or should they just be left alone, to minimize possible disturbance to manifold sealing surfaces?

I can see an argument for either option, anybody end up with a leak after R&R of a jackshaft? Thanks! Nate