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After blowing a leaky freeze plug I've decided to pull the engine for a full rebuild, too many unknowns to chance it.

I haven't found any threads on the proper sequence for pulling the engine on a goose, if there is an existing thread my apologies and a link would be much appreciated, if there isn't, any advice and suggestions would be appreciated.

Obviously the first task is to unbolt the spine and remove the hood "wings".

Should the transaxle come out with the engine or remain in place?

what about starter, oil filter, etc...?  I know all too well how tight a fit things are in there, seems like unbolting everything possible would be helplful.

While the engine is out are there other items to attend to?  I plan on replacing the heat shielding on the side of the fuel cel.  I've already replaced the bearings on the jackshaft.  Obviously new hoses, belts, water pump.  I'd also like to put "factory" valve covers back on the engine as well.

Thanks in advance, this may end up being a long thread!

MH

Last edited by mkeh
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I don't have much in the way of answers but good luck to you on this project!

You may have seen the thread from the recent past where removal of the rear hatches was discussed. Apparently, that can all be peeled off with the help of a friend or two.

Just speculating but I doubt there is room to un-mate the motor and trans inside the car. Not sure.

Just a few days ago, I was driving 8MA-596 when suddenly I was greeted by the sounds of major engine failure and the car promptly shut down. Luckily I was in a safe location and was able to flatbed the car a short distance home. So now I am facing a similar project.

Good luck and please do post some updates to the thread, I'm sure plenty of us look forward to watching your progress.

Hey MH,

It's been a while since I pulled mine,. The spine and wings and then headers off obviously. Then also remove the jack-shaft assembly (the front pulley will smash the rear glass). Remove the starter and AC condenser, and all hoses/wires etc. I removed my engine and ZF as a unit and it was probably easier than separating them (but I've only ever removed them as a unit from Panteras as well). Once all is disconnected it's a quick job.

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Hey MH,

It's been a while since I pulled mine,. The spine and wings and then headers off obviously. Then also remove the jack-shaft assembly (the front pulley will smash the rear glass). Remove the starter and AC condenser, and all hoses/wires etc. I removed my engine and ZF as a unit and it was probably easier than separating them (but I've only ever removed them as a unit from Panteras as well). Once all is disconnected it's a quick job.

Pictures are very helpful, Thanks!

MH

Do Mangustas have an engine number tag like the Pantera? Is that an issue for value?

I'm running a Progression Ignition and am a huge fan:
https://progressionignition.co...mall-cap-distributor

The ability to see live timing and adjust on the fly is great. I have 1000 miles or so on it and it's been flawless. Size-wise very similar to the MSD Pro billet. No interference issues with Pantera using stock or aftermarket air cleaners.

Last edited by jmardy
@jmardy posted:

Do Mangustas have an engine number tag like the Pantera? Is that an issue for value?

I'm running a Progression Ignition and am a huge fan:
https://progressionignition.co...mall-cap-distributor

The ability to see live timing and adjust on the fly is great. I have 1000 miles or so on it and it's been flawless. Size-wise very similar to the MSD Pro billet. No interference issues with Pantera using stock or aftermarket air cleaners.

The block isn't stamped (to my knowledge), there is an aluminum tag bolted to the intake manifold (which I have).

That's a nice looking distributor, one the Mangusta the air cleaner is right up against it, I'll try to compare dimensions to see if it'll clear.  Thanks for the link.

MH

Mangusta blocks are not typically stamped with a Ford serial number as they were supplied in bulk to DT blank. The intake IS stamped with the "engine number" that corresponds to build sheets. I think many of the people claiming they have the original engine may not even know that they do (or don't). The easy tell is if it has a stamped Ford number, it's not original to the car.

I decided to go the rebuild route and do the 331 stroker as well. My engine shop did use the original heads and intake, but did open up ports to help improve flow. I ended up with around 310HP and 400 ft-lbs of torque in an engine that sounds absolutely awesome, yet appears completely stock from the outside (carb and distributor aside).

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Mangusta blocks are not typically stamped with a Ford serial number as they were supplied in bulk to DT blank. The intake IS stamped with the "engine number" that corresponds to build sheets. I think many of the people claiming they have the original engine may not even know that they do (or don't). The easy tell is if it has a stamped Ford number, it's not original to the car.

I decided to go the rebuild route and do the 331 stroker as well. My engine shop did use the original heads and intake, but did open up ports to help improve flow. I ended up with around 310HP and 400 ft-lbs of torque in an engine that sounds absolutely awesome, yet appears completely stock from the outside (carb and distributor aside).

Which distributor did you go with?  any clearance issues?

One of the crate engine companies asked if I wanted/needed the block with the clutch pivot point...  since all gooses (geese?) have a hydraulic clutch, I'm assuming that's a "no".

I have a brand new set of headers (I think from Hall) that the previous owner purchased, but never installed...  this would be the time if I want to install them, I'm just not sure how much of a difference they will make though.  Like you, I want to "appear" stock.

MH

M!ke, I'm with Mark on the engine removal--its straightforward to bring it out with the ZF. Removing the jackshaft first is necessary. Take special care with the oil pan, at least if its original, even consider getting cheap repro pan during the process of removal and transport. The original pan (with oil temp sender and pointer) is a neat thing to have.

You may locate the gullwing mounting before removal--meaning, use a very small drill bit and drill a hole at the spine, so you can locate the position easier when putting back on. Getting a good fit of the engine covers is not easy. See picture on 8ma1046.

  After that, the good news is that it is all Ford, and if leave it all in original tune you might be happy forever. I installed Pertronix ignition modules in 8ma1046 and 1076--I am not a believer in colorful/fancy ignition, and only went back with more hydraulic cam (which just requires screw in studs, but keep the high compression heads), and polished and balanced the rods (and lord knows why, its not like I'm going to be speed shifting at 6000 rpm...).  A roller cam and the stroker kit are not going to hurt the value of the car, and just may help the driveability. But more than that may be a 'stay busy/spend money' trap,  a Tesla 3 is still going to be faster and you may just be happy having the car in great tune again... I would personally work to keep as many external pieces in place as possible, even including the original headers.

Geez, your car has 52 year old paint and the engine has never been out? Pretty awesome...Lee

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Hi M!ke, one thought about those Hall headers.  Before you pull the motor (but have the existing headers off) I'd test fit BOTH Hall units to see if they line up properly.   Mine certainly didn't.... off by 1-2".... which required much painful tube cutting & welding .  There may have been more than one Hall header design down through the years but the set I got - cheap as it was - was no bargain!

About the jackshaft, as long as you take the front pulley off, you can pull the motor without removing the whole jackshaft assembly.  That said, you'll probably find insufficient clearance for sliding the pulley off the end of the shaft unless the powertrain is 'loose' and angled or moved a bit to make space.  I was surprised how tight things are at that end of the jackshaft....on 1010 (w/ non stock manifold) I've never had any luck installing a fully assemble jackshaft back on a fully mounted engine....just not enough space.  Always need to install the front pulley 'mid-assembly', one way or another.

Good luck with the project, be interested to see things come back together!  Regards, Nate

Last edited by nate
@nate posted:

Hi M!ke, one thought about those Hall headers.  Before you pull the motor (but have the existing headers off) I'd test fit BOTH Hall units to see if they line up properly.   Mine certainly didn't.... off by 1-2".... which required much painful tube cutting & welding .  There may have been more than one Hall header design down through the years but the set I got - cheap as it was - was no bargain!

About the jackshaft, as long as you take the front pulley off, you can pull the motor without removing the whole jackshaft assembly.  That said, you'll probably find insufficient clearance for sliding the pulley off the end of the shaft unless the powertrain is 'loose' and angled or moved a bit to make space.  I was surprised how tight things are at that end of the jackshaft....on 1010 (w/ non stock manifold) I've never had any luck installing a fully assemble jackshaft back on a fully mounted engine....just not enough space.  Always need to install the front pulley 'mid-assembly', one way or another.

Good luck with the project, be interested to see things come back together!  Regards, Nate

Thanks Nate, good to know the headers might be Hiding an issue.  I have a spare seat of heat shields...  Will have to see if they can be fitted to keep it stock looking.

Are there conflicts fitting the jackshaft to aftermarket intake manifolds?

Thanks guys

MH

M!ke, I went with the Hall headers--and decades later, at least the idea of 'disguising' them to look like Ansa is where I'd go instead....Strange that one of the things I'd like to do is get the smog pump back on and maybe even working, have the heat riser for the mechanical choke (instead of the electrical kit on it now), and cover over with the heat shields...

btw, the talk then with Gary Hall on the manifold then was 'leave it' (its a good, wide range dual plane manifold. Thank goodness I didn't swap the manifold, decades ago I didn't think any of the Ford pieces were precious and who knew then that the engine number was on the intake...Lee

MH, while the powertrain is out, you could pull the top cover and check for safety wire in your ring gear bolts. This is usually not as much of a problem with Mangustas as it is on Panteras, but with your run of luck with the car recently.... If you're careful in pulling the cover, you won't need to replace the gasket. The clutch pivot thingy on the block is a Mustang attachment. And check the jackshaft before replacing it. Seems like the center bearing is the one that goes out.

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...a-inc&item=22078  Here is the kit from Hall for the ZF wiring. $75 and someone who has a clue

Btw, I was surprised to see there is now apparently a really correct repro oil pan, Scott Drake makes a 5 quart version of the C5AZ-6675-BL for 64-69 that appears to Not have the kidney dimples (the impressions that most repros have on the left and right rear sides). I had to look for a long time before I found a decent used original part to modify. Some really talented guy generously made this drawing for the pointer a few years ago, I won't name names, he may have the copyright   .

  Repro bell housing spacers are cheap and available, in case yours is scraped. Since the tranny and the engine may be mated for another 50 years, it may be a great opportunity to powderpaint these and have them in place forever....

  But plan B, if compression is still lively in the engine and the only issue is a freeze plug...or if your guy can get the work done before Spring weather and get you back on the road, all is good...Lee

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  • nates amazing oil pan pointer drawing
@bosswrench posted:

MH, while the powertrain is out, you could pull the top cover and check for safety wire in your ring gear bolts. This is usually not as much of a problem with Mangustas as it is on Panteras, but with your run of luck with the car recently.... If you're careful in pulling the cover, you won't need to replace the gasket. The clutch pivot thingy on the block is a Mustang attachment. And check the jackshaft before replacing it. Seems like the center bearing is the one that goes out.

Top cover being #103 in this drawing correct?  I'm on the edge of my comfort threshold here, which is fine, just want to make sure I'm tearing into the right bitsDash_1_

I replaced all the bearings in the jackshaft a few years ago, but need to replace the one in the idler pulley since it recently began squealing...

doesn't look like a goose needs the clutch pivot hole... as far as I can tell...

Thanks,

MH

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@leea posted:

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...a-inc&item=22078  Here is the kit from Hall for the ZF wiring. $75 and someone who has a clue

Btw, I was surprised to see there is now apparently a really correct repro oil pan, Scott Drake makes a 5 quart version of the C5AZ-6675-BL for 64-69 that appears to Not have the kidney dimples (the impressions that most repros have on the left and right rear sides). I had to look for a long time before I found a decent used original part to modify. Some really talented guy generously made this drawing for the pointer a few years ago, I won't name names, he may have the copyright   .

  Repro bell housing spacers are cheap and available, in case yours is scraped. Since the tranny and the engine may be mated for another 50 years, it may be a great opportunity to powderpaint these and have them in place forever....

  But plan B, if compression is still lively in the engine and the only issue is a freeze plug...or if your guy can get the work done before Spring weather and get you back on the road, all is good...Lee

Sounds like there was no safety wire on the ring bolts from the factory.

The oil pan was replaced by a former owner so I don't have the original.  I'm seriously thinking of mothballing the original engine intact and dropping a crate in place, just make it look stock, but keep the original for historical purposes.

Bellhousing spacers?  ya lost me there...

on the ring bolts, we're talking #907 here right?

-1

Thanks for the suggestions and info, keep 'em coming!

MH

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@jmardy posted:

Do Mangustas have an engine number tag like the Pantera? Is that an issue for value?

I'm running a Progression Ignition and am a huge fan:
https://progressionignition.co...mall-cap-distributor

The ability to see live timing and adjust on the fly is great. I have 1000 miles or so on it and it's been flawless. Size-wise very similar to the MSD Pro billet. No interference issues with Pantera using stock or aftermarket air cleaners.

Did you have any issues with the tach with this distributor?  Some of the others I've seen required an adapter of sorts

MH

Jmardy, there are only 2 tags on the engine, but 3 unique IDs--standard tags were the carburetor and then the engine ID on the intake manifold. These are available as repro. The key ID is the Detomaso stamp on the intake. The block  on '1076 was stamped with the machining date, of course all the castings have date codes and it seems that the first week in July 1968 is pretty common (but nobody can say exclusive) for the J-codes that went into Mangustas.

Mike, the Veglia tach will work as long as you are taking the tach signal from the  coil. Otherwise, for about $25 you can buy "tach amplifiers" that take a pure +12v or digital signal and basically include their own coil to burst up to something the tach will hear. (Wish I'd known this when I put the electromotive ignition on my 308...)

The bell housing spacer is just that flat disc between the engine and the ZF, and likely the first thing that gets touch from below...But cheap and simple at this moment to replace.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/wiring-gearbox is of course the best information on the ZF safety wiring...(where else but here? ). My guy replaced the differential carrier bearings , its a great time just to replace 50 year old seals--esp, between the shifter box and the ZF case, the dust boot at the shift box, whatever.

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Last edited by leea
@mkeh posted:

Thanks Nate, good to know the headers might be Hiding an issue.  I have a spare seat of heat shields...  Will have to see if they can be fitted to keep it stock looking.

Are there conflicts fitting the jackshaft to aftermarket intake manifolds?

Thanks guys

MH

Afaik, fitting an assembled jackshaft on a previously installed stock engine is no problem - - no need to remove the front pulley.  There will be plenty of space to position the jackshaft assembly where it needs to be. 

No matter what manifold you're running, however, if you want to PULL the engine w/o removing the jackshaft first, you'll need to work the front pulley off during the process to clear the chassis structure. 

I was planning to re-re-install my engine with the jackshaft in place (...install front pulley before it's all the way in....), but reconsidering things now given Mark's comment about possible smashed glass!!

@nate posted:

Afaik, fitting an assembled jackshaft on a previously installed stock engine is no problem - - no need to remove the front pulley.  There will be plenty of space to position the jackshaft assembly where it needs to be.

No matter what manifold you're running, however, if you want to PULL the engine w/o removing the jackshaft first, you'll need to work the front pulley off during the process to clear the chassis structure.

I was planning to re-re-install my engine with the jackshaft in place (...install front pulley before it's all the way in....), but reconsidering things now given Mark's comment about possible smashed glass!!

Nate, I replaced the bearings in my jackshaft a few years ago.  I had no problem removing and reinstalling the assembled jackshaft with the engine in the car.   I would recommend adding it after the engine is installed.  Just one more thing to get in the way or to get damaged while putting the engine back in the car.

MH

@leea posted:

Jmardy, there are only 2 tags on the engine, but 3 unique IDs--standard tags were the carburetor and then the engine ID on the intake manifold. These are available as repro. The key ID is the Detomaso stamp on the intake. The block  on '1076 was stamped with the machining date, of course all the castings have date codes and it seems that the first week in July 1968 is pretty common (but nobody can say exclusive) for the J-codes that went into Mangustas.

Mike, the Veglia tach will work as long as you are taking the tach signal from the  coil. Otherwise, for about $25 you can buy "tach amplifiers" that take a pure +12v or digital signal and basically include their own coil to burst up to something the tach will hear. (Wish I'd known this when I put the electromotive ignition on my 308...)

The bell housing spacer is just that flat disc between the engine and the ZF, and likely the first thing that gets touch from below...But cheap and simple at this moment to replace.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/wiring-gearbox is of course the best information on the ZF safety wiring...(where else but here? ). My guy replaced the differential carrier bearings , its a great time just to replace 50 year old seals--esp, between the shifter box and the ZF case, the dust boot at the shift box, whatever.

Lee, thanks for the link on safety wiring the ring bolts.  Seems like a task I can handle.  He did mention torquing the bolts, but not the torque #'s...   Does anyone have them?   I'm guessing gaskets are readily available, so might as well replace them too...

MH

Last edited by mkeh

After much deliberation and discussion with friends, I've decided to stay stock and have the engine refreshed.  I will use Johnny Woods web page (link above) as a guide to restore the engine bay while the engine is out.  I have no intention of racing the car and as we all know, it can provide more than enough excitement in stock form.

I will have the ZF vapor blasted and all the brackets and pulleys and such replated or painted as per original. 

Is the clutch disc a standard item or unobtainium spec?  What about U-Joints?

I'm open to "While you're in there" suggestions as well.  Right now I'm making my shopping list.

I might as well address the front end too.  Ball joints, tie rods, etc.  If anyone has recommendations on part #'s or suppliers you have my attention.

MH

M!ke, the only 'wrong' thing would be to keep your car off the Houston streets for too long...Here is the longer story on clutches, short story is that the cover is standard Ford and a Chevy disc works but may need machining back the nose...I think Steve published a picture somewhere in another thread.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...223#1598208420756223

Steve had motor mounts and u-joints, the U-joints are supposedly common with Chevy truck. Should be easy to confirm with your favorite parts guy.

Front ball joints are here, https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...angusta-ball-joints, see Dick's part numbers but also note that fiat Plus C. Obert  http://www.fiatplus.com/LOWER-...KIT-0005880297N.html

distinguishes which version of Fiat 124 is a mate for the Mangusta (at least 8ma1076 needed the <40mm ball joint).

I bought front suspension poly bushings from Hall Pantera. Renault R4 rack (Dauphine) supplies the steering rack boots. Tie rods I thought were from a Fiat 600, but the parts manual lists them from Fiat 1300 (as are the stub axles themselves, see below).

Re: other things to do while the engine is out--I'm a big fan of replacing everything old and rubbery--You might use the opportunity to re-grease the Heim joints and replace the plasticized heim joint booties--stretching these on with grease is actually very easy. Guessing that all the water hoses are old, just a lot easier to replace the lines now. And with all coolant out, treat/repaint the water tubes while its easy. Paint or WD40 on the bell housing (I went with paint), a pair of new motor mounts. And yeah, not a bad time to pressure wash and even hit what you can of the frame with epoxy primer-- Next to replacing rubber, I'm next a fan of rust prevention (! esp, cleaning anywhere that holds water, drilling drain holes and bathing anything that could hold water in POR15). But not much is coincident with the engine work and you just don't have to spend much more focus than just getting the car running again.  Everything else can be its own project...

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Last edited by leea

“I will have the ZF vapor blasted….”

I assume you mean blasting with dry ice pellets?

I was able to find a local business that did that for my ZF during the reassembly of 2511. It gave a very clean surface but it didn’t return everything to the same uniform appearance. It seems cast aluminum pieces, after 50 years of use, are hard to return to original.

I chose to do something others have used before me, a colored Carnuba wax called rub n buff. As others advised me, it seems to be holding up quite well and allows the bell housing and the ZF case to have matching appearance

left side is with the wax, right side is the dry ice blasted finish.  there is a darker gray wax available that would be a closer match to the cleaned surface, but I opted for a little bit more shine

C18FF9BE-74ED-4FDE-956F-6EFDAE11239A


it comes in a 1/2 ounce tube and the coverage is phenomenal. I used one tube and maybe 1/4 of a second tube for the entire project

2D749C87-0FA5-4E74-879C-31080416AD0C

DFACFAD1-8A88-46F0-88B0-0A56D4F09F07

Larry

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Back to the jackshaft assembly for a moment...I've always tried to install the jackshaft and intake manifold at the same time, torqueing all bolts in the proper sequence, and avoided removing the jackshaft alone later for fear of promoting manifold leaks.

Thinking now this is excessive caution.....but it begs a question:  If the jackshaft is removed by removing it's four main bolts/screws, should the 8 other manifold bolts be loosened and ultimately re-tightened in proper sequence, or should they just be left alone, to minimize possible disturbance to manifold sealing surfaces?

I can see an argument for either option, anybody end up with a leak after R&R of a jackshaft? Thanks! Nate

Last edited by nate

Nate, I'd never thought about even the risk...! In my one time up on this, I think I used the intake manifold in the first step only to support the engine lifting plate---and the only thing I'm sure of is that I installed sealant (and torqued, if not even re-torqued) with the engine in place in the engine bay. And then re-stabbed the distributor, and then the replacement oil pan...Lee

@nate posted:

Back to the jackshaft assembly for a moment...I've always tried to install the jackshaft and intake manifold at the same time, torqueing all bolts in the proper sequence, and avoided removing the jackshaft alone later for fear of promoting manifold leaks.

Thinking now this is excessive caution.....but it begs a question:  If the jackshaft is removed by removing it's four main bolts/screws, should the 8 other manifold bolts be loosened and ultimately re-tightened in proper sequence, or should they just be left alone, to minimize possible disturbance to manifold sealing surfaces?

I can see an argument for either option, anybody end up with a leak after R&R of a jackshaft? Thanks! Nate

I'm VERY likely wrong on this, but since there is relatively little force exerted on the intake manifold compared to main bearings, cylinder heads, and such, I wasn't particularly worried about disturbing the seals.  Of course the fact that I hadn't even considered that MIGHT have been a contributing factor.

Hopefully this rebuild will be the last one for a while and will be torqued to spec with the jackshaft in place.

MH

Into the rabbit hole we go!

After MUCH deliberation I have decided to go back almost completely stock with the engine, I will send the engine off for a complete refresh/rebuild.  I'm considering some minor improvements to valves and cam, but haven't made those decisions yet.  I also have a set of "never installed" Hall Pantera big bore headers that I'm considering...  If I can mount the heat shields to hide them, I may go that route.  The main goal is to keep as close to original (at least externally) as possible.

I drilled discreet alignment holes on the spine mounts AND the wing mounts on the left side, removed the left wing, then the spine with the right wing still attached.  A far simpler task than I had feared!!!  a minimum 2 man job ( I had three just in case), but not difficult at all.  In a car known for pushing the envelope of the term "difficult", this was a pleasant surprise...

These pictures were early in the day.  I've since removed the spare tire support beam, alternator, A/C compressor, carb, distributor, plugs and detached the exhaust manifolds.

20220305_155045_HDR

20220305_155029

Next session will see the seats and console come out to access the portal and remove the jackshaft and coolant hoses.

I'm still undecided on whether to remove the ZF first or to pull the engine and ZF together.

What is the proper procedure for removing the frame bridge and the other Assembly/Bars/Doohicky that the upper shock mounts are on (I'll just call it the "ABD" for now}?  I think that I need to put the car on jackstands and take the weight off the shocks but I'm waist deep in new waters here.  Do I need to put another jack under the ZF?

On a side note, I scored a set of Dodge Rampage mirrors for $95

Rampage 1

That gets everyone up to speed.  suggestions, warnings, advice and even criticism are all welcome at this point.

MH

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Last edited by mkeh

M!ke, I installed with ZF attached, using a balance tied to the ZF in the back and a carb plate--angled with the ZF up to nose under the 'shelf' on the rear bulkhead.  I don't remember it clearly (so good news, must have been uneventful ) but I think removal is (after the engine mounts are unbolted)  to loosen the alternator bridge (relieve pressure on the springs, pull the shock bolt and move the bridge out of the way, then re-stab the shock with the bridge in place. Support the ZF and remove the ZF support, then chain the engine balance to the ZF and carb plate. I think no secret at all, really, you've already done the hard work! Lee

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@lf-tp2511 posted:

“I will have the ZF vapor blasted….”

I assume you mean blasting with dry ice pellets?

I was able to find a local business that did that for my ZF during the reassembly of 2511. It gave a very clean surface but it didn’t return everything to the same uniform appearance. It seems cast aluminum pieces, after 50 years of use, are hard to return to original.

I chose to do something others have used before me, a colored Carnuba wax called rub n buff. As others advised me, it seems to be holding up quite well and allows the bell housing and the ZF case to have matching appearance

left side is with the wax, right side is the dry ice blasted finish.  there is a darker gray wax available that would be a closer match to the cleaned surface, but I opted for a little bit more shine

C18FF9BE-74ED-4FDE-956F-6EFDAE11239A


it comes in a 1/2 ounce tube and the coverage is phenomenal. I used one tube and maybe 1/4 of a second tube for the entire project

2D749C87-0FA5-4E74-879C-31080416AD0C

DFACFAD1-8A88-46F0-88B0-0A56D4F09F07

Larry

Looks great.



Vapor blasting is a combination of water and glass beads. It leaves a low gloss gleam kind of like a new Edelbrock intake manifold has.

It's kind of new to the "US" as "restorers" and is more of an industrial finish. So if you find someone locally that does it, likely they are industrial and caution should prevail on the consideration of the handling of your ZF. Like they would give two shits if they wrecked it for you?



I only know of one guy "in the hobby" doing it. It's part time for him and he does it in the back of his garage. Not here. In Texas and you need to get the parts to him and I'm not sure how good he is at shipping the stuff back to you?

It definitely will give you the "new gleam" that you want on the case.

What has been called vapor blasting is more commonly referred to here in the US as dustless blasting. It can use different medias but they are always mixed with water, thus the name dustless blasting. I don’t know what the gentleman in Texas might be doing that is unique, but vapor/dustless blasting is offered just about everywhere these days.

I think the term “vapor” is a misnomer. it does not miraculously vaporize but instead leaves a muddy sludge which I suppose has some advantages over a dust storm. 🤷‍♂️

I would never consider any media blasting on an assembled ZF. Strictly an approach to do on an empty case.

The beauty of Dry Ice Blasting is there is no media to get blown inside and grind up the gears. The “media” is the dry ice and yes it does turn to a vapor, with the only residue being left behind is the material that was removed from the surface. For this reason it is often used in food processing facilities  on processing lines  

do a YouTube search for Dry Ice Blasting and you will find there are specialists in the automotive hobby world working wonders with this approach

https://youtu.be/cFSsiB-PrYw

Larry

Jack shafts, what a concept. Larry, a friend of mine has two truck mounted blaster as you describe. He keeps these going by doing prep jobs at Legoland, Sea world, Disneyland and government places that require minimal impact to the environment. I have used this system to do complete cars but, all the materials get expensive even though I get to use the machine for free. It is still a lot of work so, I just hall everything to my blaster guy and be done with it.   

M!ke, a neighbor of mine in New Ulm had 5 BMW motorcycles, none newer than 1964 and each beautiful. His answer to restoring aluminum--WD40. That simple, same logic as lanolin for leather---it floods out the dirt and provides a consistent finish, voila. Not that I'm sorry that I once polished out the valve covers on the 308 (like I'm not sorry for polishing the water tank in the Goose!), but though its sad, its true, the cool thing in the Mangusta engine bay is not the drive train--you can barely find it under everything--its really just the open tube frame...

Denis, that is one mean application for jackshaft (!) An an interesting exercise in packaging for DeT to have enabled the engine to be just a few inches towards center. One of my favorite Binky episodes is the most recent one--even after 36 episodes of making brackets... The issue they had with their flex shaft (where the inertia of the accessories was tearing it apart and so they built the clutch function on it) was pretty amazing. Thanks for the tip on that channel so long ago--Lee

Last edited by leea

Is it safe to assume the shifter linkage yoke will slide out of the ZF when I lift the engine or should I remove it (and if so, how)?.    From the looks of it, the oil filter must be removed too...  Does that mean the engine has to be reinstalled sans-filter?  Last oil filter change took me 20 min to get the filter out.  PO swapped oil pan For a custom pan which didn't make it any easier.

Message_1646766353654

I should have the engine out this weekend

While the engine is at the machine shop I'll begin the engine bay restoration...  as well as suspension...



MH

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Mike, you will need to separate the ZF; I just remember this was damn hard, everything was stuck....But the shifter fork is secured inside the shifter box by 2 "grub" screws--using maybe ~4-5mm allen wrench screws that access thru the small rubber grommets on the top of the shifter box. The pin that held the rear of the yoke is still stuck for my car, I think others have noted that the hardened pin just gets harder if you try drilling on it...Since the adjustment on the front was also stuck (had to take it to a machinist who put huge amounts of heat on it, its bathed really well in anti-sieze now and I think I located a new giant fine-pitch nut.). But I may have taken the U-joint apart to get the engine out of the car.

  I actually thought adjusting the shifter was not difficult on re-assembly. If you can't punch out the pin, and are going to try and drill, get some amazing drill bit and make sure its cutting...Lee

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Mike, here is another view; the pin that Denis mentions is definitely the best to access, its worth spending a long suffering time to try and pull it out. Otherwise, the access to the 2 grubs screws is shown here, once removed then yes the shaft can slide forward out of the arm that responds to left/right gear selection...

There should be a boot right outside the shifter box on the shaft, mine evaporated but you must have either grub screws or the "pin" removed to replace. I think I simply unscrewed at the adjustment coupling on the far side of the U-joint to detach from the shift linkage. I've since found replacement u-joints (3 of them somewhere on the shelf, feel free to look, just leave me one for the day I get a chance .

The then 40-something year old seal finally started seeping after all put together...the shift box should be dry, but suggest getting a replacement seal (it and the grub screws are cheap at Wilkinson, same as the shift boot).

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@leea @denisc @johnnywoods

Alas, I didn't see that pin...   I ended up marking the set-nuts on the turnbuckle adjuster bolt and then unthreading it...

Then I log in to read Denis's "Whatever you do" warning NOT to do what I had JUST done...  (a recurring theme in my life).

So, last night a friend from the Ferrari world (who is helping me on this project) and I went to go see that 'other' goose in town. 

Lee, you might recognize this one

IMG_1557

I wanted to get a look at a proper engine bay...  While 898 seems to be very original,  Various parts have been replaced over the past 53 years and not always with the correct parts.

@johnnywoods I've been pouring over the gorgeous engine bay restoration you were kind enough to document online.  I wanted to ask about the zinc/passivate plating that you had done, was that personal choice, customer request or "factory correct"?  I love the look, but haven't seen much of that in other Mangusta pics...  Of course rattle can black spray paint IS a cheaper solution many others (including msyelf) have turned to from time to time.

MH

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...good to see my own car for the first time in just over 2 years since Covid At first glance, it could have been your's or Denis' car ! In my car, the only 3 things that are yellow are the polished brass water tank and the Lucas 4ST solenoid on the right...4ST was the right solenoid by the time 1076 was actually built, but I've got a silver zinc 2ST waiting on the shelves there (that just looks to weird not to use!). Lastly, the air valve on the smog pump is yellow zinc/cad---yes, I at least want it back in place on the right of the car, even if a working system (esp, air injectors won't work with the Hall headers on the car now) is a long way from installation.

I love the look of yellow zinc, but it may be a 70's and later thing and (Dick has emphasized this) (except for some with yellow rear springs) there is really no yellow on the car.  Even, a lot of fasteners I replaced with nice shiny clear zinc, um, are 'correct' in black. For example, a lot of the M10 nylock nuts in the engine bay are clear zinc with yellow or red inserts...brand new shiny yellow-insert nylocks are available (not cheap, but only a few needed) but the big screws are supposed to be black. This makes the engine bay pretty much a black hole, esp when the carpeted trays are in place. Pretty much, in the rear is the spare tire, forward is the air-cleaner, and on the sides are the air tubes with the aluminum trays above all that. I can understand why a little yellow glimmer is not 'correct' but pretty darn eye-catching...

For the vinyl edging that goes around the lower engine bay--of course the original stuff is fake chrome, but the golden look after aging (see the pics of 8ma1074) against the red is so cool that I've ordered yellow-gold edging instead...maybe it will be too brash, I hope so .

The detail I  haven't even attempted is the undercoating texture in the engine bay--everything is smooth epoxy. Original was a wonderful splatter everywhere--and I wish I knew how to get those textures.

Detail painting in the engine bay isn't done, I will someday detail as I saw 8ma1074 (half-black on the engine latches, across the rear bulkhead, and of course the engine covers).

Some day...meanwhile, just great to have free storage at the brother's house and have time to think about the trivial details (since I can't be there to actually get the car in one piece and drive )--Lee

Last edited by leea

Another dive into the abyss

20220312_11395620220312_11512920220312_115146

It really wasn't that bad of a pull, now to start on the suspension and engine bay restoration!!!  Which of course begins with cleaning the huge pile of parts.

@leea did you keep the internals of your engine stock?  I know you were a proponent of the 331 Stroker, but I never asked which route you took.

I will get the engine shop started on checking out the engine and giving it a refresh/rebuild next week...  while they do their thing I'll be making a list of needs, wants and questions!

As always, suggestions/advice/warnings/etc. are ALL welcome

MH

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Mike, the decisions on the rebuild were made so long ago, but the only mods I made were to have the conn rods polished and shot peened (you know, why not) but then for spec only went with a more aggressive hydraulic camshaft. That requires modifying the heads for an adjustable rocker setup, so screw-in studs and guide plates. Pretty ordinary work for an engine shop. Since the original cam was the same thing probably used in station wagons (and since the heads are closed chamber and have  healthy compression ratio, friendly to more cam already).

  A stroker kit and a roller cam would be a super nice setup--but in the big picture, completely unnecessary and (expecting that the core of your engine is healthy), just the minimum bore with new rings and balancing will keep you happy.

In the meanwhile, great time to scrub up and DP90 the frame...If you want to re-install the water valves, you might trace the brackets on my car and the valves are easy to find. Boots for the heim joints, finding some modern replacement for the asbestos heat shields up front, new rubber hoses everywhere--are a nice gift for a 53 year old car...Lee

 

If money is tight, ultimate horsepower is not a goal, the block is not too worn and it already has certain types of forged pistons, they can run with as much as 0.005" of clearance, since they expand greatly with heat. In such cases, you can get away with a good honing and re-use well cleaned used pistons with new rings.This is a "freshening", not a complete overhaul and is commonly done in all kinds of racing engines. Honing is far cheaper since less set-up is needed and you wind up with stronger (thicker) cylinder walls.

But if you have cast (stock or hypereutectic) pistons in a used block, an economy  freshening will not work and you're stuck with overboring and new pistons. Good luck.

We'll find out soon enough if the crank is worn...  I'm having the block, crank and heads checked out.  Turns out the cam was a "Moon" aftermarket model, so I'll be looking at options there as well.

Anyone have sources for the rubberized padding/soundproofing along the firewall?

Are these sheet metal panels to the left and right of the engine factory or added? They are thin sheet metal with some sort of fiberglass insulation behind them.  They are mounted to (4) 1" standoffs each from the outer walls

Question

Also, should the frame (for lack of a better term) be glossy or semi-gloss finish?

Thanks,

MH

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Mike, almost everywhere, I went with just DP90 epoxy primer, which can end up with a maybe ~60% sheen when sprayed a little wet on a cool day.  Big brother had painted the frame with Imron in the 80's, which is a super durable paint with high gloss...and it looked like hell, really, too thick and glossy and I took it off. DP90 is incredibly durable, it sticks like mad and protects  wonderfully (I had patio furniture I painted in it alone and it lasted for years...).

I wish I could find something 'right' to replace the bitumen-infused felt along the front sides there, I finally went back with rubber sheet but I wish there was something more like the original (which is kind of a bitumen board).  Bitumen felt seems to be easier to get in Europe, but pretty much all application for cars has otherwise shifted from less toxic asphalt. Metal and fiberglass is someone's later replacement, though it looks like the window frames for the asbestos are still there. I went with solid aluminum sheets there (instead of the open frames)--Lee

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Por-15 is great for things like inside the doors or wheel wells (where the purpose is to build a swimming pool film that won't allow water to linger in the seams...). But I wouldn't use it for the frame, it will be too thick, its not really meant to be sprayed but brushed. Pretty much, you just want the frame to not be ugly--but don't need it to be the center of focus. DP90 will give you the protection and won't look wrong.

  For the suspension pieces, I did go with thicker, glossy paint. I only went with powder coating on the front A-arms, but you would probably be happy with the 11 rear pieces (the 4 long rearward rods, the upper and lower A-arms, the torsion bar and the uplinks) with a bit of a contrast in gloss...Lee

Last edited by leea

the 2 front panels have a tar paper cover insulating the gas tank on one side and the storage compartment on the other.  The lower portion has an asbestos like protection within a frame.  SteveL (Mangusta) restored these somewhere on this forum.

...aka "brake compensator", this one was used on Ferrari (275 or 330?) and also Miura, the bracket seems unique to Mangusta. Mr. Fiat sells a rubber cap ("Miura brake distribution valve rubber cap" over the end, I haven't looked yet for the spring clip.  OKP sells a replacement assembly.  http://www.miuraworkshop.com/tav25.html

Update Sept 2022; the compensator is being repro'd. even for less than 300 euro. Search Ebay for a Ferrari 250 or Miura regulator  (REGOLATORE DI FRENATA, even Fiat 4321182). Expect the threads to NOT be British inch for at least the Fiat AR76 application.

Update Oct 2022; from the Miura website, showing pure metric fittings (but using the Girling ball ends on the lines).

The Pantera version is different, 01310a /b - VALVE ASSY PRESSURE CONTROL . There is a charity/business online that had some repair pieces for Pantera (for just $10, how is that not charity... https://www.musclecarresearch....a-prop-valve-autopsy ) but I have no idea if they work with the Goose piece. See also  http://www.panteraplace.com/page199.htm

  The clear PVC tubing to cushion the plumbing to the tabs is original.

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fyi, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194...7:g:Pu4AAOSwbrlc-nEV

....maybe the closest thing available to the bitumen-felt .... 66 euro for shipping from Germany seems like a bargain these days..!

The bitumen-filz was used everywhere on the Goose, at least for interior padding and also on the rear bulkhead. I saw one comment, that bitumen for car interiors has been disallowed (legally) for car interiors, my guess its both toxic and makes a great candle...So closed cell foam is another option...Lee

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@mkeh posted:

Thanks Larry, I thought that was what it is, but going through my archives i haven't seen them on other Mangustas...  wasn't sure if it was original or added.

MH

My car is 8MA888 and it has the same unit. As far as I know the brake system has never been modified. I may be late to the party on this, but here is a shot of me dropping my engine back in. Jackshaft can stay on, but she needs to do a pretty strong "nose dive" to get the required clearance.

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WOW! Youse guys with the hoist abilities makes me jealous!!!   My "breakdown" hoist does not have the abilities of these seen here with the adjustable top arm. So I had to wing it!

Here's my alternative to removing/dropping it all in at once!  If you have ceiling clearance issues, or a fixed hoist upper arm, or an uneven work surface (floor!) this could come in handy.

The bellhousing can have issues with the shock tower area, if you cannot get enough vertical lift!  That is a LOT of weight swinging around up high at full clearance of all parts involved!     The factory photos show a special engine/ZF jig that allows the assembly to be tipped at an extreme nose down attitude such that I believe (could be wrong) that they slipped the engine in with the jackshaft and front pulley in place.

After loosening the front mounts, removing any and all hose connections (fuel and water-radiator & heater hoses), oil & water temp sender unit wiring, taking loose the headers (or completely out), starter, AC pump, and alternator, (smog pump) removed, oil filter removed (may not be necessary if you have a shortie filter installed) and removing the ZF upper rear mount and the shock tower ladder bar, wrap the ZF in straps securely and use your hoist to lift and separate (HAH!) the ZF from the engine.

At this point, the bellhousing and block plate are still potentially able to bugger up the shock tower paint....and require a higher lift. so I simply removed the bellhousing at this point along with the clutch and flywheel after which the block plate comes out as well.

While the nose of the engine is tilted downwards, you should be able to remove the jackshaft front pulley.... it will make engine removal easier.

Now with this stripped down engine, the tilt required to get clearance for the front of the jackshaft should be minimal and lifting the engine out should be a piece of cake once you remove the final nuts or bolts from the engine mounts.

I think that is it, but I reserve the right to forget something!!!

Hopefully this will help someone who is considering doing this job.  Even MH when putting his newly restored engine back in place!!!!! Are you done yet?????

I've (unfortunately) had to do this procedure three times, AND I live to tell the tale!!!

Vroom vroom!!!
Steve

Can someone enlighten me too? Please?

"One of my favorite Binky episodes is the most recent one--even after 36 episodes of making brackets... The issue they had with their flex shaft (where the inertia of the accessories was tearing it apart and so they built the clutch function on it) was pretty amazing. Thanks for the tip on that channel so long ago-"

Ok, so 898 is approaching reassembly time.

Engine Bay / Rear Suspension is getting there...

Engine is still a few weeks out, new pistons, valves, valve springs, cam, roller everything, double roller timing chain... 

So now I'm looking at what I will need to do to remate the ZF to my shiny fresh engine... 

So, now I'm begging for part #'s and/or advice

I'm hoping to replace pressure plate, throwout bearing, Pilot Bearing and of course clutch disc.

The pressure plate in the car was a "Zoom 020005" Long Style.  I can't find that model anywhere...  rebuild or replace?

Is the Throwout Bearing a standard Mustang item?

Steve L. had mentioned roller/needle bearings in the pilot bearing, does anyone know the sizes or (fingers crossed) a part #?

Clutch Disc was a "CF470" which I'm pretty sure is a discontinued Center Force model, I've read we both CAN & can NOT use a Chevy clutch...  any thoughts?

Thanks in advance to all!

MH

I assume you still have the steel pilot bearing/bushing extension piece? The Mangusta and very early Panteras used a bellhousing, diff case and Goose gearbox that had different dimensions, so the pilot was extended out from the crankshaft. I built a couple of custom ones with needle bearing ejectors so the bearings could be easily backed out, but I don't remember the measurements after all this time.

Michael,

Some pictures in here for you:

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...a-clutch-help-please

Pilot bearing:  INA  #HK1512

I used a double lipped rubber seal that I found instead of a leather version which should be original......    15x21x5  MOS/D  Double Lip Oil Seal.     Sourced via Rocket Seals in Denver.  YMMV!

As for more info:   Try my post: OOPS I'm Doing It Again.....     for my rebuild process of last engine and ZF adventure....plus cracks......   I thought I posted all of the clutch info there also.

Pressure plate is stock 1968 Ford Mustang 302 clutch.     I ran a 10.5"   "synthetic" material (Kevlar like..) on both sides of the disc.     Disc is supposed to be some sort of Mopar piece that my clutch guy found before he passed away......bummer!   Besides losing a friend of the marque, lost all of the info too!   See top post for pic's of it!

Throw out bearing is stock Mustang Bower/BCA 1625 I believe.  (same as Pantera.)

Note that the clutch disc and pressure plate all say 10" but you can run a 10,5" disc with this pressure plate, no problem.

Pressure plate was C7ZZ-? number......if I must I could be persuaded to dig thru my receipts for the actual number.     Goose parts book lists a undeciperable partial Ford  number.... might be C7TA.....

I "may" have installed a HiPo 289/Boss 302 pressure plate.... C7ZZ-7550-A... My apologies for dead brain cells!!!!!

My Master Ford Parts Catalog lists the following pressure plate for a 1968 302 with 10" clutch: C6OZ-7550-G   Likely this is what came in the cars.

I know that my original flywheel had the proper C7TA(?) stamping on the backside which accepted the 10.5" components just fine, no redrilling required!

I found this from email dated 2010, but could be earlier:

My friend found me a clutch that fits the ‘goose with no modifications.  Its McLeod part number 260140.  I’m also using it with Hays pressure plate part number Hay-52-105 which was given to me by Roland Jaeckal.  Haven’t road tested it yet but it specs out the same and the hub shaft clears the crank adapter with no machining.  I’ll attach it tomorrow and hopefully get the engine installed sometime this week

Sorry for the goofy format!!!  Tried to fix it but failed.....short of typing it all over again.....

We REALLY NEED TO GET STICKIES for this website activated.....so that we can start a data reference area for this post and the other 401 just like it!!!    Post it once......more......!  Read many.......!    George???

Cheers!
Steve 

@bosswrench Yes, I have the extension piece, it seems fine, it's the brass bit inside it that I was thinking I should replace.

@mangusta I went through your threads earlier, lots of good info in there...  one quick question, I still have the original pilot bearing adapter, but you posted a pic of your non-original adapter

DSCN3107_[Medium)

is it screwed into the crankshaft?  it looks like there are screw holes in the back of yours.  I haven't looked that deeply into mine just yet...

I'm pretty sure I still have the original flywheel, but the pressure plate is aftermarket, just trying to decide if I should rebuild or replace it.  Disc itself definitely needs replacement...  it's quite worn.

I'm deep into weatherstripping and brake lines as such as well...  today was a field trip to the machine shop, so I had to do more thinking that usual...

Until next time!

Thanks all

MH

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Those screw holes are so you can thread two screws in from the back to force out a steel needle pilot bearing. Otherwise, you basically have to grind it out as the bearing is too small for a puller. To remove a bushing, you just screw a tap into the bronze until it bottoms. Further turning jacks the soft bushing out, but that won;t work with a small hardened needle bearing.

There's an extra hardened washer between the base of the adapter hole to take the force of the two removal screws without bending the bearings grease shield. This is so a bearing can be reused after being removed for inspection.Finally, the spud that presses into the crank is also threaded so the adapter can be removed from the crank. I spent quite a bit of time trying to design the thing to be service-able if you used a bearing instead of a bushing.
Jack DeRyke
@bosswrench posted:
Those screw holes are so you can thread two screws in from the back to force out a steel needle pilot bearing. Otherwise, you basically have to grind it out as the bearing is too small for a puller. To remove a bushing, you just screw a tap into the bronze until it bottoms. Further turning jacks the soft bushing out, but that won;t work with a small hardened needle bearing.

There's an extra hardened washer between the base of the adapter hole to take the force of the two removal screws without bending the bearings grease shield. This is so a bearing can be reused after being removed for inspection.Finally, the spud that presses into the crank is also threaded so the adapter can be removed from the crank. I spent quite a bit of time trying to design the thing to be service-able if you used a bearing instead of a bushing.
Jack DeRyke

@bosswrench are the factory adapters similarly attached or are they just pressed into place ?

MH

Yeah, for the clutch cover, there really aren't alternatives--just the early Ford 302 version. I see that Centerforce requires a different flywheel (I can't remember, maybe ~1985 Ford changed the clutch cover (and yes, new holes in the flywheel to go with it).

The 10-spline of the ZF is not a Ford, so I matched the Chevy disc plate. I see that Centerforce lists one 10.4" disc for The -1 ZF (with 1 1/8" spine, part 387132) and a different disc for Pantera using the -2 ZF (at 1 1/16").  But I'd have to think '132 disc is fine as a replacement. Steve noticed the nose itself should be inspected to make sure there is no interference against the flywheel, but seems to be a pretty safe route. And no reason to change the flywheel...

  For brake lines, good news is that the GHP71 was used on lots of cars of the time (Aston Martin, Morgan, Rolls, etc)--Lee

Last edited by leea

Michael,

The original pilot adapter is simple press in place with a thru hole for the needle bearing as far as I know.    My problem is that all of my car was "re-engineered" by owner #3......who is unknown and didn't leave any instruction manual with what they built!!!!

If you look up a Dash 1 Pantera adapter, you will find all the same pieces as were used in the GOose, including perhaps the leather seal....

Attached are some early Pantera bits....pic and a drawing of what John found in his early P-car! (Thanks John...your efforts continue to edumacate folks!!!)

Steve

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...I have read through most of this and have a couple of suggestions.

1. The 'Shift-Box' (at the ZF) Should Never be DRY!! The Fact is, ALL Sliding/Moving Assemblies should be PACKED with Grease. Especially the 'Ball' Joint! The Box should practically be Near Filled with grease. All Metal to Metal contact Must have Lubrication. In the case of the 'Dry Box', after a good greasing, a Much Smoother, Easier Shifting will be Realized. Plus, the Parts will wear slower.

2. To remove a Steel Needle Bearing from it's Carrier...provided the Plan is to Never re-use the Bearing Again! First clean all grease out with a solvent. Clean solvent out and dry. With a Torch  heat the Outer Race of the Bearing, And ONLY the Bearing. You are NOT trying to Expand the Carrier, You want to Heat the Bearing to Expand it! Since the Thermal Dynamics of Steel, dictate "Contraction Is Greater than Expansion", after letting the assembly Air-Cool, the Bearing can be pulled out easily. It may even Fall Out. We do this Every Day at the LFW Machine Shop. Heating the Carrier to Expand it, may Not work...as Both Bearing and Carrier, are Expanding at the same Rate.

3. One does NOT, just change-Over and re-use a Flywheel, from One Engine to Another. Flywheels Must be Re-Balanced ALONG with ALL of the 'Rotating Assembly'...Even the Bearings are Included in a Professional Balancing. Just Bolt it On a New Engine...You'll wonder Why the Rearview Mirror Vibrates!

For What it's Worth,

MJ   

Last edited by marlinjack

Marlin,

Two comments!    Great to hear from you!

1) that's a LOT of grease!!!     I wonder why ZF never did or recommended this..... No grease zerks where you would expect them to do so!  Case of replace parts sooner $$$   ???

2) In this case, you'd need the tiniest torch ever made to heat only the race of a 5/8" diameter needle bearing in the crank adapter!  These bearings are only about $5 new, so reuse is sort of a non starter.......!

Great thing to know about the retraction thing, at least for large bearings!

Cheers!
Steve

...You would use a Oxy-Acetylene torch with the Smallest Tip. Careful to Heat and NOT Melt! One could also, machine a SMALL, 'Double-Claw' Hook, that 'Snaps' into the Bearings' Outer Race...Then 'Slide-Hammer' the Bearing Out. Some Slide-Hammer KITS, come with Such a Pilot Bearing Removal Tool.

I remember a few years back, I machined a Carrier out of Steel and put a Oilite Bearing in it. I do not remember the Customer.

The Bearing I.D. was machined to 15mm for the (-1) ZF. The Measurements of the Above Blueprint look correct*. I have been asked to, but have Not machined one since, as they are Very Expensive!

Last, NO Zerk Fitting...That's Why the Box Must be Packed with the Stuff. Perhaps you'll take this opportunity to Drill and Tap, and install the First 'Box' Zerk Fitting.

MJ

* Very nice Drawing of the 'Extension'! Most aren't That well Done. Using Building/Construction Blueprint, 'Arrow-Heads', I have not seen that before. Interesting!

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@mangusta posted:


Pilot bearing:  INA  #HK1512

I used a double lipped rubber seal that I found instead of a leather version which should be original......    15x21x5  MOS/D  Double Lip Oil Seal.     Sourced via Rocket Seals in Denver.  YMMV!

@mangusta HK1512 comes in as 15x21x12 instead of 12x21x5  are there variables I'm missing or is the difference in the rubber/leather seal?

@leea the GHP71 comes in as a three hose package, is that for front or rear? (or either) Right now I'm replacing the hardlines

MH

Last edited by mkeh

This stuff on Ford pilot bearings vs bushings comes up about every 5 years or so. Good thing we have the POCA Archives! Personally, I never use a rolling element bearing as a pilot nose support- in any car, since its in the end of the crank. And that is one of the MOST hostile places for a rolling element bearing: inaccessible, hot, intermittent high loads and vibration, with no chance of ever re-greasing it since you'd have to pry out the dust shields for grease access, after pulling the tranny.

For a ZF, a Chevy pilot BUSHING fits the shaft nose but needs a home-made ring-adapter to fit some Ford cranks. And with the price of copper these days, many cut-rate shops are installing those 85% steel Oilite pilot "bushings" that are hard and  magnetic. Even if initially greased/oiled, they go dry pretty quickly in that position. A gone-dry steel bearing OR a gone-dry steel/bronze bushing will wear the nose of a ZF. Repairs involve pulling the ZF, disassembly, TIG welding w/stainless steel plus machining ($$$)

So I use Lakewood Industries pilot BUSHING for any ZFs I work on, to protect the ZF nose. I use a magnet to verify it's real bronze. The pilot is SUPPOSED TO BE SACRIFICIAL to support and protect the tranny nose! That means they are not supposed to last forever. YMMV...

M!ke, the same brake hose is used on all 4 corners, its about 433mm total length and use the Girling 3/8-24 thread. https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...e-length-needed-asap

Some folks sell them in packages, but you need (4) of the GHP71.

And yes, I spent a lot of time looking for that Herringbone tubing too, but much better to make sure you get something out of rubber that isn't already 50 years old...replacement hoses are actually one of the easiest things to find for a Goose--Lee

ps. MJ, thanks for the distinction for the ZF shift box ("not dry", at least grease). The note especially on the seal to the shift box is that it should not be leaking from the ZF case, and the shift box should not be susceptible to leaking itself, something that probably won't happen on a Pantera but (with flipped tranny) will happen on the Goose.

Last edited by leea

...Bushings GUIDE a Shaft or a Drill Bit, to a Point, AXIALLY i.e. SLIDING in and Out, as In the 'Steering Rack' BUSHING.

A BEARING Supports a shaft that will ROTATE within It, and will Rotate AROUND the Shaft. As in a ZF Input Shaft and PILOT BEARING.

Oilite...Real Oilite is a Sintered Bronze that is Compressed at TONS of Pressure to remain 'Solid'. It is Porous and the pores are filled with a Light Oil. Oilite Never Drys-Out! Just warming it, and wearing-in, will cause the Oil to Oooze Out of the Pores. Carrying it in Your pocket, is Not advised, and will cause a Stain in Your Nice Pair of Slaks.

Oilite is Very Soft! Soft enough to Crush, Disrupt, Meld. It will 'Move', adjust, Conform from a High Point to a Low Point, thus self adjusting to most any Mis-Alignment, Axially, of the ZF Input Shaft. A custom Fit. 'Real' Oilite is Never Magnetic. Yes, I check this at all times. At the MOST, there may be 0.10 % Iron. This will not mar or wear the 'Gear-Hardened' Snout of any ZF! I have Tested these Bearings 'To Destruction'! Running the Bearing in the Lathe at 3000 RPM and Driving a Hard Steel Bar directly into it, with Great Force...the Oilite just 'Crushes', and is Displaced Out of the Way. Oilite Bronze is the Best Material for this Job.

MJ

Last edited by marlinjack

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