Mangusta Engine Removal and Rebuild

I don't have much in the way of answers but good luck to you on this project!

You may have seen the thread from the recent past where removal of the rear hatches was discussed. Apparently, that can all be peeled off with the help of a friend or two.

Just speculating but I doubt there is room to un-mate the motor and trans inside the car. Not sure.

Just a few days ago, I was driving 8MA-596 when suddenly I was greeted by the sounds of major engine failure and the car promptly shut down. Luckily I was in a safe location and was able to flatbed the car a short distance home. So now I am facing a similar project.

Good luck and please do post some updates to the thread, I'm sure plenty of us look forward to watching your progress.

I know very little about the Mangusta but there is an excellent blog on removing the Pantera engine here, might be helpful:
https://www.coloradopantera.com/351crebuild.html

I have been there before, the trans comes out first.

Hey MH,

It's been a while since I pulled mine,. The spine and wings and then headers off obviously. Then also remove the jack-shaft assembly (the front pulley will smash the rear glass). Remove the starter and AC condenser, and all hoses/wires etc. I removed my engine and ZF as a unit and it was probably easier than separating them (but I've only ever removed them as a unit from Panteras as well). Once all is disconnected it's a quick job.

I've about decided to swap to a 331 Stroker with roller rockers/cam (per Lee's suggestion).  Right now I'm shopping...  CNC Motorsports was recommended by a friend.  Does anyone have any other rec's or experience with a crate engine builder?

MH

@jmardy posted:

I know very little about the Mangusta but there is an excellent blog on removing the Pantera engine here, might be helpful:
https://www.coloradopantera.com/351crebuild.html

Nice blog, obvious adjustments will be made for a goose, but it's close enough to start planning.

Thanks,

MH

@markcharlton posted:

Hey MH,

It's been a while since I pulled mine,. The spine and wings and then headers off obviously. Then also remove the jack-shaft assembly (the front pulley will smash the rear glass). Remove the starter and AC condenser, and all hoses/wires etc. I removed my engine and ZF as a unit and it was probably easier than separating them (but I've only ever removed them as a unit from Panteras as well). Once all is disconnected it's a quick job.

Pictures are very helpful, Thanks!

MH

*IF* I go with a crate engine, I'm thinking a long block and using original flywheel, intake / carb setup.  Any thoughts on ignition?  I've seen some nice MSD units, but as we all know it's a tight fit in there.

so far this one seems to be the best bang for the buck

https://www.tristarengines.com...ler-camshaft-lifters

Good reviews with good warranty & service.

MH

Do Mangustas have an engine number tag like the Pantera? Is that an issue for value?

I'm running a Progression Ignition and am a huge fan:
https://progressionignition.co...mall-cap-distributor

The ability to see live timing and adjust on the fly is great. I have 1000 miles or so on it and it's been flawless. Size-wise very similar to the MSD Pro billet. No interference issues with Pantera using stock or aftermarket air cleaners.

@jmardy posted:

Do Mangustas have an engine number tag like the Pantera? Is that an issue for value?

I'm running a Progression Ignition and am a huge fan:
https://progressionignition.co...mall-cap-distributor

The ability to see live timing and adjust on the fly is great. I have 1000 miles or so on it and it's been flawless. Size-wise very similar to the MSD Pro billet. No interference issues with Pantera using stock or aftermarket air cleaners.

The block isn't stamped (to my knowledge), there is an aluminum tag bolted to the intake manifold (which I have).

That's a nice looking distributor, one the Mangusta the air cleaner is right up against it, I'll try to compare dimensions to see if it'll clear.  Thanks for the link.

MH

Mangusta blocks are not typically stamped with a Ford serial number as they were supplied in bulk to DT blank. The intake IS stamped with the "engine number" that corresponds to build sheets. I think many of the people claiming they have the original engine may not even know that they do (or don't). The easy tell is if it has a stamped Ford number, it's not original to the car.

I decided to go the rebuild route and do the 331 stroker as well. My engine shop did use the original heads and intake, but did open up ports to help improve flow. I ended up with around 310HP and 400 ft-lbs of torque in an engine that sounds absolutely awesome, yet appears completely stock from the outside (carb and distributor aside).

@markcharlton posted:

Mangusta blocks are not typically stamped with a Ford serial number as they were supplied in bulk to DT blank. The intake IS stamped with the "engine number" that corresponds to build sheets. I think many of the people claiming they have the original engine may not even know that they do (or don't). The easy tell is if it has a stamped Ford number, it's not original to the car.

I decided to go the rebuild route and do the 331 stroker as well. My engine shop did use the original heads and intake, but did open up ports to help improve flow. I ended up with around 310HP and 400 ft-lbs of torque in an engine that sounds absolutely awesome, yet appears completely stock from the outside (carb and distributor aside).

Which distributor did you go with?  any clearance issues?

One of the crate engine companies asked if I wanted/needed the block with the clutch pivot point...  since all gooses (geese?) have a hydraulic clutch, I'm assuming that's a "no".

I have a brand new set of headers (I think from Hall) that the previous owner purchased, but never installed...  this would be the time if I want to install them, I'm just not sure how much of a difference they will make though.  Like you, I want to "appear" stock.

MH

M!ke, I'm with Mark on the engine removal--its straightforward to bring it out with the ZF. Removing the jackshaft first is necessary. Take special care with the oil pan, at least if its original, even consider getting cheap repro pan during the process of removal and transport. The original pan (with oil temp sender and pointer) is a neat thing to have.

You may locate the gullwing mounting before removal--meaning, use a very small drill bit and drill a hole at the spine, so you can locate the position easier when putting back on. Getting a good fit of the engine covers is not easy. See picture on 8ma1046.

  After that, the good news is that it is all Ford, and if leave it all in original tune you might be happy forever. I installed Pertronix ignition modules in 8ma1046 and 1076--I am not a believer in colorful/fancy ignition, and only went back with more hydraulic cam (which just requires screw in studs, but keep the high compression heads), and polished and balanced the rods (and lord knows why, its not like I'm going to be speed shifting at 6000 rpm...).  A roller cam and the stroker kit are not going to hurt the value of the car, and just may help the driveability. But more than that may be a 'stay busy/spend money' trap,  a Tesla 3 is still going to be faster and you may just be happy having the car in great tune again... I would personally work to keep as many external pieces in place as possible, even including the original headers.

Geez, your car has 52 year old paint and the engine has never been out? Pretty awesome...Lee

Hi M!ke, one thought about those Hall headers.  Before you pull the motor (but have the existing headers off) I'd test fit BOTH Hall units to see if they line up properly.   Mine certainly didn't.... off by 1-2".... which required much painful tube cutting & welding .  There may have been more than one Hall header design down through the years but the set I got - cheap as it was - was no bargain!

About the jackshaft, as long as you take the front pulley off, you can pull the motor without removing the whole jackshaft assembly.  That said, you'll probably find insufficient clearance for sliding the pulley off the end of the shaft unless the powertrain is 'loose' and angled or moved a bit to make space.  I was surprised how tight things are at that end of the jackshaft....on 1010 (w/ non stock manifold) I've never had any luck installing a fully assemble jackshaft back on a fully mounted engine....just not enough space.  Always need to install the front pulley 'mid-assembly', one way or another.

Good luck with the project, be interested to see things come back together!  Regards, Nate

(my story on the headers, when I called to order replacements a few decades ago, Bev Hall said they had both the original ANSA and also their own header, either for $400. I said original and she replied "Oh, you don't want that..." .

 

@leea posted:

(my story on the headers, when I called to order replacements a few decades ago, Bev Hall said they had both the original ANSA and also their own header, either for $400. I said original and she replied "Oh, you don't want that..." .

Biased much?  😜  sounds like she wanted you to buy theirs.

So which did you go with?

MH

@nate posted:

Hi M!ke, one thought about those Hall headers.  Before you pull the motor (but have the existing headers off) I'd test fit BOTH Hall units to see if they line up properly.   Mine certainly didn't.... off by 1-2".... which required much painful tube cutting & welding .  There may have been more than one Hall header design down through the years but the set I got - cheap as it was - was no bargain!

About the jackshaft, as long as you take the front pulley off, you can pull the motor without removing the whole jackshaft assembly.  That said, you'll probably find insufficient clearance for sliding the pulley off the end of the shaft unless the powertrain is 'loose' and angled or moved a bit to make space.  I was surprised how tight things are at that end of the jackshaft....on 1010 (w/ non stock manifold) I've never had any luck installing a fully assemble jackshaft back on a fully mounted engine....just not enough space.  Always need to install the front pulley 'mid-assembly', one way or another.

Good luck with the project, be interested to see things come back together!  Regards, Nate

Thanks Nate, good to know the headers might be Hiding an issue.  I have a spare seat of heat shields...  Will have to see if they can be fitted to keep it stock looking.

Are there conflicts fitting the jackshaft to aftermarket intake manifolds?

Thanks guys

MH

M!ke, I went with the Hall headers--and decades later, at least the idea of 'disguising' them to look like Ansa is where I'd go instead....Strange that one of the things I'd like to do is get the smog pump back on and maybe even working, have the heat riser for the mechanical choke (instead of the electrical kit on it now), and cover over with the heat shields...

btw, the talk then with Gary Hall on the manifold then was 'leave it' (its a good, wide range dual plane manifold. Thank goodness I didn't swap the manifold, decades ago I didn't think any of the Ford pieces were precious and who knew then that the engine number was on the intake...Lee

MH, while the powertrain is out, you could pull the top cover and check for safety wire in your ring gear bolts. This is usually not as much of a problem with Mangustas as it is on Panteras, but with your run of luck with the car recently.... If you're careful in pulling the cover, you won't need to replace the gasket. The clutch pivot thingy on the block is a Mustang attachment. And check the jackshaft before replacing it. Seems like the center bearing is the one that goes out.

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...a-inc&item=22078  Here is the kit from Hall for the ZF wiring. $75 and someone who has a clue

Btw, I was surprised to see there is now apparently a really correct repro oil pan, Scott Drake makes a 5 quart version of the C5AZ-6675-BL for 64-69 that appears to Not have the kidney dimples (the impressions that most repros have on the left and right rear sides). I had to look for a long time before I found a decent used original part to modify. Some really talented guy generously made this drawing for the pointer a few years ago, I won't name names, he may have the copyright   .

  Repro bell housing spacers are cheap and available, in case yours is scraped. Since the tranny and the engine may be mated for another 50 years, it may be a great opportunity to powderpaint these and have them in place forever....

  But plan B, if compression is still lively in the engine and the only issue is a freeze plug...or if your guy can get the work done before Spring weather and get you back on the road, all is good...Lee

@bosswrench posted:

MH, while the powertrain is out, you could pull the top cover and check for safety wire in your ring gear bolts. This is usually not as much of a problem with Mangustas as it is on Panteras, but with your run of luck with the car recently.... If you're careful in pulling the cover, you won't need to replace the gasket. The clutch pivot thingy on the block is a Mustang attachment. And check the jackshaft before replacing it. Seems like the center bearing is the one that goes out.

Top cover being #103 in this drawing correct?  I'm on the edge of my comfort threshold here, which is fine, just want to make sure I'm tearing into the right bits

I replaced all the bearings in the jackshaft a few years ago, but need to replace the one in the idler pulley since it recently began squealing...

doesn't look like a goose needs the clutch pivot hole... as far as I can tell...

Thanks,

MH

@leea posted:

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...a-inc&item=22078  Here is the kit from Hall for the ZF wiring. $75 and someone who has a clue

Btw, I was surprised to see there is now apparently a really correct repro oil pan, Scott Drake makes a 5 quart version of the C5AZ-6675-BL for 64-69 that appears to Not have the kidney dimples (the impressions that most repros have on the left and right rear sides). I had to look for a long time before I found a decent used original part to modify. Some really talented guy generously made this drawing for the pointer a few years ago, I won't name names, he may have the copyright   .

  Repro bell housing spacers are cheap and available, in case yours is scraped. Since the tranny and the engine may be mated for another 50 years, it may be a great opportunity to powderpaint these and have them in place forever....

  But plan B, if compression is still lively in the engine and the only issue is a freeze plug...or if your guy can get the work done before Spring weather and get you back on the road, all is good...Lee

Sounds like there was no safety wire on the ring bolts from the factory.

The oil pan was replaced by a former owner so I don't have the original.  I'm seriously thinking of mothballing the original engine intact and dropping a crate in place, just make it look stock, but keep the original for historical purposes.

Bellhousing spacers?  ya lost me there...

on the ring bolts, we're talking #907 here right?

Thanks for the suggestions and info, keep 'em coming!

MH

I'm studying Johnny Woods engine bay work heavily here:

https://www.harlywax.co.uk/De-...on-Johnny-Woods.html

So thankful he documented his incredible work!

MH

@jmardy posted:

Do Mangustas have an engine number tag like the Pantera? Is that an issue for value?

I'm running a Progression Ignition and am a huge fan:
https://progressionignition.co...mall-cap-distributor

The ability to see live timing and adjust on the fly is great. I have 1000 miles or so on it and it's been flawless. Size-wise very similar to the MSD Pro billet. No interference issues with Pantera using stock or aftermarket air cleaners.

Did you have any issues with the tach with this distributor?  Some of the others I've seen required an adapter of sorts

MH

Nope, no issues whatsoever. PO's engine builder had installed an MSD Pro Billet (without a tach adapter) and it worked fine. Replacing it with the Progression worked just the same. Same wiring, direct plug-in replacement.

@mkeh posted:

I'm studying Johnny Woods engine bay work heavily here:

https://www.harlywax.co.uk/De-...on-Johnny-Woods.html

So thankful he documented his incredible work!

MH

That was amazing! I love a good build blog.

Jmardy, there are only 2 tags on the engine, but 3 unique IDs--standard tags were the carburetor and then the engine ID on the intake manifold. These are available as repro. The key ID is the Detomaso stamp on the intake. The block  on '1076 was stamped with the machining date, of course all the castings have date codes and it seems that the first week in July 1968 is pretty common (but nobody can say exclusive) for the J-codes that went into Mangustas.

Mike, the Veglia tach will work as long as you are taking the tach signal from the  coil. Otherwise, for about $25 you can buy "tach amplifiers" that take a pure +12v or digital signal and basically include their own coil to burst up to something the tach will hear. (Wish I'd known this when I put the electromotive ignition on my 308...)

The bell housing spacer is just that flat disc between the engine and the ZF, and likely the first thing that gets touch from below...But cheap and simple at this moment to replace.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/wiring-gearbox is of course the best information on the ZF safety wiring...(where else but here? ). My guy replaced the differential carrier bearings , its a great time just to replace 50 year old seals--esp, between the shifter box and the ZF case, the dust boot at the shift box, whatever.

@mkeh posted:

Thanks Nate, good to know the headers might be Hiding an issue.  I have a spare seat of heat shields...  Will have to see if they can be fitted to keep it stock looking.

Are there conflicts fitting the jackshaft to aftermarket intake manifolds?

Thanks guys

MH

Afaik, fitting an assembled jackshaft on a previously installed stock engine is no problem - - no need to remove the front pulley.  There will be plenty of space to position the jackshaft assembly where it needs to be. 

No matter what manifold you're running, however, if you want to PULL the engine w/o removing the jackshaft first, you'll need to work the front pulley off during the process to clear the chassis structure. 

I was planning to re-re-install my engine with the jackshaft in place (...install front pulley before it's all the way in....), but reconsidering things now given Mark's comment about possible smashed glass!!

@nate posted:

Afaik, fitting an assembled jackshaft on a previously installed stock engine is no problem - - no need to remove the front pulley.  There will be plenty of space to position the jackshaft assembly where it needs to be.

No matter what manifold you're running, however, if you want to PULL the engine w/o removing the jackshaft first, you'll need to work the front pulley off during the process to clear the chassis structure.

I was planning to re-re-install my engine with the jackshaft in place (...install front pulley before it's all the way in....), but reconsidering things now given Mark's comment about possible smashed glass!!

Nate, I replaced the bearings in my jackshaft a few years ago.  I had no problem removing and reinstalling the assembled jackshaft with the engine in the car.   I would recommend adding it after the engine is installed.  Just one more thing to get in the way or to get damaged while putting the engine back in the car.

MH

@leea posted:

Jmardy, there are only 2 tags on the engine, but 3 unique IDs--standard tags were the carburetor and then the engine ID on the intake manifold. These are available as repro. The key ID is the Detomaso stamp on the intake. The block  on '1076 was stamped with the machining date, of course all the castings have date codes and it seems that the first week in July 1968 is pretty common (but nobody can say exclusive) for the J-codes that went into Mangustas.

Mike, the Veglia tach will work as long as you are taking the tach signal from the  coil. Otherwise, for about $25 you can buy "tach amplifiers" that take a pure +12v or digital signal and basically include their own coil to burst up to something the tach will hear. (Wish I'd known this when I put the electromotive ignition on my 308...)

The bell housing spacer is just that flat disc between the engine and the ZF, and likely the first thing that gets touch from below...But cheap and simple at this moment to replace.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/wiring-gearbox is of course the best information on the ZF safety wiring...(where else but here? ). My guy replaced the differential carrier bearings , its a great time just to replace 50 year old seals--esp, between the shifter box and the ZF case, the dust boot at the shift box, whatever.

Lee, thanks for the link on safety wiring the ring bolts.  Seems like a task I can handle.  He did mention torquing the bolts, but not the torque #'s...   Does anyone have them?   I'm guessing gaskets are readily available, so might as well replace them too...

MH

After much deliberation and discussion with friends, I've decided to stay stock and have the engine refreshed.  I will use Johnny Woods web page (link above) as a guide to restore the engine bay while the engine is out.  I have no intention of racing the car and as we all know, it can provide more than enough excitement in stock form.

I will have the ZF vapor blasted and all the brackets and pulleys and such replated or painted as per original. 

Is the clutch disc a standard item or unobtainium spec?  What about U-Joints?

I'm open to "While you're in there" suggestions as well.  Right now I'm making my shopping list.

I might as well address the front end too.  Ball joints, tie rods, etc.  If anyone has recommendations on part #'s or suppliers you have my attention.

MH

M!ke, the only 'wrong' thing would be to keep your car off the Houston streets for too long...Here is the longer story on clutches, short story is that the cover is standard Ford and a Chevy disc works but may need machining back the nose...I think Steve published a picture somewhere in another thread.

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...223#1598208420756223

Steve had motor mounts and u-joints, the U-joints are supposedly common with Chevy truck. Should be easy to confirm with your favorite parts guy.

Front ball joints are here, https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...angusta-ball-joints, see Dick's part numbers but also note that fiat Plus C. Obert  http://www.fiatplus.com/LOWER-...KIT-0005880297N.html

distinguishes which version of Fiat 124 is a mate for the Mangusta (at least 8ma1076 needed the <40mm ball joint).

I bought front suspension poly bushings from Hall Pantera. Renault R4 rack (Dauphine) supplies the steering rack boots. Tie rods I thought were from a Fiat 600, but the parts manual lists them from Fiat 1300 (as are the stub axles themselves, see below).

Re: other things to do while the engine is out--I'm a big fan of replacing everything old and rubbery--You might use the opportunity to re-grease the Heim joints and replace the plasticized heim joint booties--stretching these on with grease is actually very easy. Guessing that all the water hoses are old, just a lot easier to replace the lines now. And with all coolant out, treat/repaint the water tubes while its easy. Paint or WD40 on the bell housing (I went with paint), a pair of new motor mounts. And yeah, not a bad time to pressure wash and even hit what you can of the frame with epoxy primer-- Next to replacing rubber, I'm next a fan of rust prevention (! esp, cleaning anywhere that holds water, drilling drain holes and bathing anything that could hold water in POR15). But not much is coincident with the engine work and you just don't have to spend much more focus than just getting the car running again.  Everything else can be its own project...

Ipsco have a gasket set:
https://ipsco.org/newsite/prod...gasket-complete-set/

“I will have the ZF vapor blasted….”

I assume you mean blasting with dry ice pellets?

I was able to find a local business that did that for my ZF during the reassembly of 2511. It gave a very clean surface but it didn’t return everything to the same uniform appearance. It seems cast aluminum pieces, after 50 years of use, are hard to return to original.

I chose to do something others have used before me, a colored Carnuba wax called rub n buff. As others advised me, it seems to be holding up quite well and allows the bell housing and the ZF case to have matching appearance

left side is with the wax, right side is the dry ice blasted finish.  there is a darker gray wax available that would be a closer match to the cleaned surface, but I opted for a little bit more shine

it comes in a 1/2 ounce tube and the coverage is phenomenal. I used one tube and maybe 1/4 of a second tube for the entire project

Larry

Larry - that looks absolutely fantastic. I was tearing up buffing pads by the carton trying to get into corners with various polishing compounds. The house was knee deep in fluff mouse droppings. And at the end there are still areas I am not happy with.

I will absolutely try this.

BTW I have a scape in exactly the same place on the front transverse tube.

Must have been the same speed bump.....

Probably not a scrape, most likely a rub spot from speedometer cable or emergency brake cable.

Can you tell us what the lower star bolts are - are they stainless ?

Back to the jackshaft assembly for a moment...I've always tried to install the jackshaft and intake manifold at the same time, torqueing all bolts in the proper sequence, and avoided removing the jackshaft alone later for fear of promoting manifold leaks.

Thinking now this is excessive caution.....but it begs a question:  If the jackshaft is removed by removing it's four main bolts/screws, should the 8 other manifold bolts be loosened and ultimately re-tightened in proper sequence, or should they just be left alone, to minimize possible disturbance to manifold sealing surfaces?

I can see an argument for either option, anybody end up with a leak after R&R of a jackshaft? Thanks! Nate

Nate, I'd never thought about even the risk...! In my one time up on this, I think I used the intake manifold in the first step only to support the engine lifting plate---and the only thing I'm sure of is that I installed sealant (and torqued, if not even re-torqued) with the engine in place in the engine bay. And then re-stabbed the distributor, and then the replacement oil pan...Lee

@nate posted:

Back to the jackshaft assembly for a moment...I've always tried to install the jackshaft and intake manifold at the same time, torqueing all bolts in the proper sequence, and avoided removing the jackshaft alone later for fear of promoting manifold leaks.

Thinking now this is excessive caution.....but it begs a question:  If the jackshaft is removed by removing it's four main bolts/screws, should the 8 other manifold bolts be loosened and ultimately re-tightened in proper sequence, or should they just be left alone, to minimize possible disturbance to manifold sealing surfaces?

I can see an argument for either option, anybody end up with a leak after R&R of a jackshaft? Thanks! Nate

I'm VERY likely wrong on this, but since there is relatively little force exerted on the intake manifold compared to main bearings, cylinder heads, and such, I wasn't particularly worried about disturbing the seals.  Of course the fact that I hadn't even considered that MIGHT have been a contributing factor.

Hopefully this rebuild will be the last one for a while and will be torqued to spec with the jackshaft in place.

MH

Into the rabbit hole we go!

After MUCH deliberation I have decided to go back almost completely stock with the engine, I will send the engine off for a complete refresh/rebuild.  I'm considering some minor improvements to valves and cam, but haven't made those decisions yet.  I also have a set of "never installed" Hall Pantera big bore headers that I'm considering...  If I can mount the heat shields to hide them, I may go that route.  The main goal is to keep as close to original (at least externally) as possible.

I drilled discreet alignment holes on the spine mounts AND the wing mounts on the left side, removed the left wing, then the spine with the right wing still attached.  A far simpler task than I had feared!!!  a minimum 2 man job ( I had three just in case), but not difficult at all.  In a car known for pushing the envelope of the term "difficult", this was a pleasant surprise...

These pictures were early in the day.  I've since removed the spare tire support beam, alternator, A/C compressor, carb, distributor, plugs and detached the exhaust manifolds.

Next session will see the seats and console come out to access the portal and remove the jackshaft and coolant hoses.

I'm still undecided on whether to remove the ZF first or to pull the engine and ZF together.

What is the proper procedure for removing the frame bridge and the other Assembly/Bars/Doohicky that the upper shock mounts are on (I'll just call it the "ABD" for now}?  I think that I need to put the car on jackstands and take the weight off the shocks but I'm waist deep in new waters here.  Do I need to put another jack under the ZF?

On a side note, I scored a set of Dodge Rampage mirrors for $95

That gets everyone up to speed.  suggestions, warnings, advice and even criticism are all welcome at this point.

MH

M!ke, I installed with ZF attached, using a balance tied to the ZF in the back and a carb plate--angled with the ZF up to nose under the 'shelf' on the rear bulkhead.  I don't remember it clearly (so good news, must have been uneventful ) but I think removal is (after the engine mounts are unbolted)  to loosen the alternator bridge (relieve pressure on the springs, pull the shock bolt and move the bridge out of the way, then re-stab the shock with the bridge in place. Support the ZF and remove the ZF support, then chain the engine balance to the ZF and carb plate. I think no secret at all, really, you've already done the hard work! Lee

Looks like the jackshaft should come off before the pull, is that correct?

she's almost ready to come out...  just a few hoses to go...

MH

Yes, my suggestion is remove the whole jackshaft assy off the manifold, or at least the front pulley (since the pulley nestles under the rear bulkhead metal...or at least, is one less thing to pop thru the window)--Lee

@lf-tp2511 posted:

“I will have the ZF vapor blasted….”

I assume you mean blasting with dry ice pellets?

I was able to find a local business that did that for my ZF during the reassembly of 2511. It gave a very clean surface but it didn’t return everything to the same uniform appearance. It seems cast aluminum pieces, after 50 years of use, are hard to return to original.

I chose to do something others have used before me, a colored Carnuba wax called rub n buff. As others advised me, it seems to be holding up quite well and allows the bell housing and the ZF case to have matching appearance

left side is with the wax, right side is the dry ice blasted finish.  there is a darker gray wax available that would be a closer match to the cleaned surface, but I opted for a little bit more shine

it comes in a 1/2 ounce tube and the coverage is phenomenal. I used one tube and maybe 1/4 of a second tube for the entire project

Larry

Looks great.

Vapor blasting is a combination of water and glass beads. It leaves a low gloss gleam kind of like a new Edelbrock intake manifold has.

It's kind of new to the "US" as "restorers" and is more of an industrial finish. So if you find someone locally that does it, likely they are industrial and caution should prevail on the consideration of the handling of your ZF. Like they would give two shits if they wrecked it for you?

I only know of one guy "in the hobby" doing it. It's part time for him and he does it in the back of his garage. Not here. In Texas and you need to get the parts to him and I'm not sure how good he is at shipping the stuff back to you?

It definitely will give you the "new gleam" that you want on the case.

I think a regular old Pantera has a much cooler look and styling ( not very Supercarish ) than a Goose and I never really closely looked at one but, I will say the jack shaft that operates the A/C compressor is awesome, what a neat design.

What has been called vapor blasting is more commonly referred to here in the US as dustless blasting. It can use different medias but they are always mixed with water, thus the name dustless blasting. I don’t know what the gentleman in Texas might be doing that is unique, but vapor/dustless blasting is offered just about everywhere these days.

I think the term “vapor” is a misnomer. it does not miraculously vaporize but instead leaves a muddy sludge which I suppose has some advantages over a dust storm. 🤷‍♂️

I would never consider any media blasting on an assembled ZF. Strictly an approach to do on an empty case.

The beauty of Dry Ice Blasting is there is no media to get blown inside and grind up the gears. The “media” is the dry ice and yes it does turn to a vapor, with the only residue being left behind is the material that was removed from the surface. For this reason it is often used in food processing facilities  on processing lines  

do a YouTube search for Dry Ice Blasting and you will find there are specialists in the automotive hobby world working wonders with this approach

https://youtu.be/cFSsiB-PrYw

Larry

Have you ever seen a Magnusen supercharger on a C6 w/LT2 or an SSR. The blower is driven from the rear with a jack shaft.

Jack shafts, what a concept. Larry, a friend of mine has two truck mounted blaster as you describe. He keeps these going by doing prep jobs at Legoland, Sea world, Disneyland and government places that require minimal impact to the environment. I have used this system to do complete cars but, all the materials get expensive even though I get to use the machine for free. It is still a lot of work so, I just hall everything to my blaster guy and be done with it.   

Donny,

are we talking about the same thing, Dry Ice Blasting? The only materials needed are the Dry Ice and the machine.

I have never priced blocks of dry ice, or tanks of CO2 if the machine is high end and makes its own pellets, but I don’t think it is terribly expensive?

Larry

M!ke, a neighbor of mine in New Ulm had 5 BMW motorcycles, none newer than 1964 and each beautiful. His answer to restoring aluminum--WD40. That simple, same logic as lanolin for leather---it floods out the dirt and provides a consistent finish, voila. Not that I'm sorry that I once polished out the valve covers on the 308 (like I'm not sorry for polishing the water tank in the Goose!), but though its sad, its true, the cool thing in the Mangusta engine bay is not the drive train--you can barely find it under everything--its really just the open tube frame...

Denis, that is one mean application for jackshaft (!) An an interesting exercise in packaging for DeT to have enabled the engine to be just a few inches towards center. One of my favorite Binky episodes is the most recent one--even after 36 episodes of making brackets... The issue they had with their flex shaft (where the inertia of the accessories was tearing it apart and so they built the clutch function on it) was pretty amazing. Thanks for the tip on that channel so long ago--Lee

When your doing large projects like a car getting it inside and out it can can cost a lot and take much time but, if your doing separate smaller parts, no biggie. Several years ago I bought a Barrel blaster for doing smaller to medium size parts that works awesome, It's made in the great state of Texas.

Is it safe to assume the shifter linkage yoke will slide out of the ZF when I lift the engine or should I remove it (and if so, how)?.    From the looks of it, the oil filter must be removed too...  Does that mean the engine has to be reinstalled sans-filter?  Last oil filter change took me 20 min to get the filter out.  PO swapped oil pan For a custom pan which didn't make it any easier.

I should have the engine out this weekend

While the engine is at the machine shop I'll begin the engine bay restoration...  as well as suspension...

MH

What ever you do do not unscrew the yoke.  Pull the pin forward of the joint. That way there will be no need to re-adjust the shifter when you re-assemble the car.

Mike, you will need to separate the ZF; I just remember this was damn hard, everything was stuck....But the shifter fork is secured inside the shifter box by 2 "grub" screws--using maybe ~4-5mm allen wrench screws that access thru the small rubber grommets on the top of the shifter box. The pin that held the rear of the yoke is still stuck for my car, I think others have noted that the hardened pin just gets harder if you try drilling on it...Since the adjustment on the front was also stuck (had to take it to a machinist who put huge amounts of heat on it, its bathed really well in anti-sieze now and I think I located a new giant fine-pitch nut.). But I may have taken the U-joint apart to get the engine out of the car.

  I actually thought adjusting the shifter was not difficult on re-assembly. If you can't punch out the pin, and are going to try and drill, get some amazing drill bit and make sure its cutting...Lee

Glad I asked !!!    I was hoping it was similar to the yoke on a driveshaft that just slides into a transmission...  Denisc, i'll have a look later today to see if I can find the pin you referred to.

Thanks guys...

MH

Mike, here is another view; the pin that Denis mentions is definitely the best to access, its worth spending a long suffering time to try and pull it out. Otherwise, the access to the 2 grubs screws is shown here, once removed then yes the shaft can slide forward out of the arm that responds to left/right gear selection...

There should be a boot right outside the shifter box on the shaft, mine evaporated but you must have either grub screws or the "pin" removed to replace. I think I simply unscrewed at the adjustment coupling on the far side of the U-joint to detach from the shift linkage. I've since found replacement u-joints (3 of them somewhere on the shelf, feel free to look, just leave me one for the day I get a chance .

The then 40-something year old seal finally started seeping after all put together...the shift box should be dry, but suggest getting a replacement seal (it and the grub screws are cheap at Wilkinson, same as the shift boot).

@leea @denisc @johnnywoods

Alas, I didn't see that pin...   I ended up marking the set-nuts on the turnbuckle adjuster bolt and then unthreading it...

Then I log in to read Denis's "Whatever you do" warning NOT to do what I had JUST done...  (a recurring theme in my life).

So, last night a friend from the Ferrari world (who is helping me on this project) and I went to go see that 'other' goose in town. 

Lee, you might recognize this one

I wanted to get a look at a proper engine bay...  While 898 seems to be very original,  Various parts have been replaced over the past 53 years and not always with the correct parts.

@johnnywoods I've been pouring over the gorgeous engine bay restoration you were kind enough to document online.  I wanted to ask about the zinc/passivate plating that you had done, was that personal choice, customer request or "factory correct"?  I love the look, but haven't seen much of that in other Mangusta pics...  Of course rattle can black spray paint IS a cheaper solution many others (including msyelf) have turned to from time to time.

MH

OK who cut an paste "me" in that picture?

From L to R; DenisC, Carbo, Andriyko, Mic, DavidB. Missing (behind the lenz) MarkCharlton

...good to see my own car for the first time in just over 2 years since Covid At first glance, it could have been your's or Denis' car ! In my car, the only 3 things that are yellow are the polished brass water tank and the Lucas 4ST solenoid on the right...4ST was the right solenoid by the time 1076 was actually built, but I've got a silver zinc 2ST waiting on the shelves there (that just looks to weird not to use!). Lastly, the air valve on the smog pump is yellow zinc/cad---yes, I at least want it back in place on the right of the car, even if a working system (esp, air injectors won't work with the Hall headers on the car now) is a long way from installation.

I love the look of yellow zinc, but it may be a 70's and later thing and (Dick has emphasized this) (except for some with yellow rear springs) there is really no yellow on the car.  Even, a lot of fasteners I replaced with nice shiny clear zinc, um, are 'correct' in black. For example, a lot of the M10 nylock nuts in the engine bay are clear zinc with yellow or red inserts...brand new shiny yellow-insert nylocks are available (not cheap, but only a few needed) but the big screws are supposed to be black. This makes the engine bay pretty much a black hole, esp when the carpeted trays are in place. Pretty much, in the rear is the spare tire, forward is the air-cleaner, and on the sides are the air tubes with the aluminum trays above all that. I can understand why a little yellow glimmer is not 'correct' but pretty darn eye-catching...

For the vinyl edging that goes around the lower engine bay--of course the original stuff is fake chrome, but the golden look after aging (see the pics of 8ma1074) against the red is so cool that I've ordered yellow-gold edging instead...maybe it will be too brash, I hope so .

The detail I  haven't even attempted is the undercoating texture in the engine bay--everything is smooth epoxy. Original was a wonderful splatter everywhere--and I wish I knew how to get those textures.

Detail painting in the engine bay isn't done, I will someday detail as I saw 8ma1074 (half-black on the engine latches, across the rear bulkhead, and of course the engine covers).

Some day...meanwhile, just great to have free storage at the brother's house and have time to think about the trivial details (since I can't be there to actually get the car in one piece and drive )--Lee

Another dive into the abyss

It really wasn't that bad of a pull, now to start on the suspension and engine bay restoration!!!  Which of course begins with cleaning the huge pile of parts.

@leea did you keep the internals of your engine stock?  I know you were a proponent of the 331 Stroker, but I never asked which route you took.

I will get the engine shop started on checking out the engine and giving it a refresh/rebuild next week...  while they do their thing I'll be making a list of needs, wants and questions!

As always, suggestions/advice/warnings/etc. are ALL welcome

MH

Mike, the decisions on the rebuild were made so long ago, but the only mods I made were to have the conn rods polished and shot peened (you know, why not) but then for spec only went with a more aggressive hydraulic camshaft. That requires modifying the heads for an adjustable rocker setup, so screw-in studs and guide plates. Pretty ordinary work for an engine shop. Since the original cam was the same thing probably used in station wagons (and since the heads are closed chamber and have  healthy compression ratio, friendly to more cam already).

  A stroker kit and a roller cam would be a super nice setup--but in the big picture, completely unnecessary and (expecting that the core of your engine is healthy), just the minimum bore with new rings and balancing will keep you happy.

In the meanwhile, great time to scrub up and DP90 the frame...If you want to re-install the water valves, you might trace the brackets on my car and the valves are easy to find. Boots for the heim joints, finding some modern replacement for the asbestos heat shields up front, new rubber hoses everywhere--are a nice gift for a 53 year old car...Lee

 

If money is tight, ultimate horsepower is not a goal, the block is not too worn and it already has certain types of forged pistons, they can run with as much as 0.005" of clearance, since they expand greatly with heat. In such cases, you can get away with a good honing and re-use well cleaned used pistons with new rings.This is a "freshening", not a complete overhaul and is commonly done in all kinds of racing engines. Honing is far cheaper since less set-up is needed and you wind up with stronger (thicker) cylinder walls.

But if you have cast (stock or hypereutectic) pistons in a used block, an economy  freshening will not work and you're stuck with overboring and new pistons. Good luck.

...and if you are really lucky, the crank is worn and needs replacement with a longer stroke . But if unlucky, just a really nice running motor is not a bad thing in an old car...Lee

We'll find out soon enough if the crank is worn...  I'm having the block, crank and heads checked out.  Turns out the cam was a "Moon" aftermarket model, so I'll be looking at options there as well.

Anyone have sources for the rubberized padding/soundproofing along the firewall?

Are these sheet metal panels to the left and right of the engine factory or added? They are thin sheet metal with some sort of fiberglass insulation behind them.  They are mounted to (4) 1" standoffs each from the outer walls

Also, should the frame (for lack of a better term) be glossy or semi-gloss finish?

Thanks,

MH

Mike, almost everywhere, I went with just DP90 epoxy primer, which can end up with a maybe ~60% sheen when sprayed a little wet on a cool day.  Big brother had painted the frame with Imron in the 80's, which is a super durable paint with high gloss...and it looked like hell, really, too thick and glossy and I took it off. DP90 is incredibly durable, it sticks like mad and protects  wonderfully (I had patio furniture I painted in it alone and it lasted for years...).

I wish I could find something 'right' to replace the bitumen-infused felt along the front sides there, I finally went back with rubber sheet but I wish there was something more like the original (which is kind of a bitumen board).  Bitumen felt seems to be easier to get in Europe, but pretty much all application for cars has otherwise shifted from less toxic asphalt. Metal and fiberglass is someone's later replacement, though it looks like the window frames for the asbestos are still there. I went with solid aluminum sheets there (instead of the open frames)--Lee

What are your thoughts on DP90 w/topcoat vs. POR-15 w/topcoat?

I've gone through much of my archives and don't see those sheetmetal panels on any other cars and the standoffs seem a bit modern. The asbestos pieces are just screwed to the panels.

MH

Por-15 is great for things like inside the doors or wheel wells (where the purpose is to build a swimming pool film that won't allow water to linger in the seams...). But I wouldn't use it for the frame, it will be too thick, its not really meant to be sprayed but brushed. Pretty much, you just want the frame to not be ugly--but don't need it to be the center of focus. DP90 will give you the protection and won't look wrong.

  For the suspension pieces, I did go with thicker, glossy paint. I only went with powder coating on the front A-arms, but you would probably be happy with the 11 rear pieces (the 4 long rearward rods, the upper and lower A-arms, the torsion bar and the uplinks) with a bit of a contrast in gloss...Lee

the 2 front panels have a tar paper cover insulating the gas tank on one side and the storage compartment on the other.  The lower portion has an asbestos like protection within a frame.  SteveL (Mangusta) restored these somewhere on this forum.

What is this thing in the braking system?

Looks like a non-adjustable brake proportioning valve. Similar to those in the Pantera.

Larry

@lf-tp2511 posted:

Looks like a non-adjustable brake proportioning valve. Similar to those in the Pantera.

Larry

Thanks Larry, I thought that was what it is, but going through my archives i haven't seen them on other Mangustas...  wasn't sure if it was original or added.

MH

...aka "brake compensator", this one was used on Ferrari (275 or 330?) and also Miura, the bracket seems unique to Mangusta. Mr. Fiat sells a rubber cap ("Miura brake distribution valve rubber cap" over the end, I haven't looked yet for the spring clip.  OKP sells a replacement assembly.  http://www.miuraworkshop.com/tav25.html

Update Sept 2022; the compensator is being repro'd. even for less than 300 euro. Search Ebay for a Ferrari 250 or Miura regulator  (REGOLATORE DI FRENATA, even Fiat 4321182). Expect the threads to NOT be British inch for at least the Fiat AR76 application.

Update Oct 2022; from the Miura website, showing pure metric fittings (but using the Girling ball ends on the lines).

The Pantera version is different, 01310a /b - VALVE ASSY PRESSURE CONTROL . There is a charity/business online that had some repair pieces for Pantera (for just $10, how is that not charity... https://www.musclecarresearch....a-prop-valve-autopsy ) but I have no idea if they work with the Goose piece. See also  http://www.panteraplace.com/page199.htm

  The clear PVC tubing to cushion the plumbing to the tabs is original.

fyi, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194...7:g:Pu4AAOSwbrlc-nEV

....maybe the closest thing available to the bitumen-felt .... 66 euro for shipping from Germany seems like a bargain these days..!

The bitumen-filz was used everywhere on the Goose, at least for interior padding and also on the rear bulkhead. I saw one comment, that bitumen for car interiors has been disallowed (legally) for car interiors, my guess its both toxic and makes a great candle...So closed cell foam is another option...Lee

10mm sounds about right.  1.5m x 1m size... 

Sad when shipping costs more than the item...  They do combine shipping...  Anyone else need some?

MH

@mkeh posted:

Thanks Larry, I thought that was what it is, but going through my archives i haven't seen them on other Mangustas...  wasn't sure if it was original or added.

MH

My car is 8MA888 and it has the same unit. As far as I know the brake system has never been modified. I may be late to the party on this, but here is a shot of me dropping my engine back in. Jackshaft can stay on, but she needs to do a pretty strong "nose dive" to get the required clearance.

WOW! Youse guys with the hoist abilities makes me jealous!!!   My "breakdown" hoist does not have the abilities of these seen here with the adjustable top arm. So I had to wing it!

Here's my alternative to removing/dropping it all in at once!  If you have ceiling clearance issues, or a fixed hoist upper arm, or an uneven work surface (floor!) this could come in handy.

The bellhousing can have issues with the shock tower area, if you cannot get enough vertical lift!  That is a LOT of weight swinging around up high at full clearance of all parts involved!     The factory photos show a special engine/ZF jig that allows the assembly to be tipped at an extreme nose down attitude such that I believe (could be wrong) that they slipped the engine in with the jackshaft and front pulley in place.

After loosening the front mounts, removing any and all hose connections (fuel and water-radiator & heater hoses), oil & water temp sender unit wiring, taking loose the headers (or completely out), starter, AC pump, and alternator, (smog pump) removed, oil filter removed (may not be necessary if you have a shortie filter installed) and removing the ZF upper rear mount and the shock tower ladder bar, wrap the ZF in straps securely and use your hoist to lift and separate (HAH!) the ZF from the engine.

At this point, the bellhousing and block plate are still potentially able to bugger up the shock tower paint....and require a higher lift. so I simply removed the bellhousing at this point along with the clutch and flywheel after which the block plate comes out as well.

While the nose of the engine is tilted downwards, you should be able to remove the jackshaft front pulley.... it will make engine removal easier.

Now with this stripped down engine, the tilt required to get clearance for the front of the jackshaft should be minimal and lifting the engine out should be a piece of cake once you remove the final nuts or bolts from the engine mounts.

I think that is it, but I reserve the right to forget something!!!

Hopefully this will help someone who is considering doing this job.  Even MH when putting his newly restored engine back in place!!!!! Are you done yet?????

I've (unfortunately) had to do this procedure three times, AND I live to tell the tale!!!

Vroom vroom!!!
Steve

Can someone enlighten me too? Please?

"One of my favorite Binky episodes is the most recent one--even after 36 episodes of making brackets... The issue they had with their flex shaft (where the inertia of the accessories was tearing it apart and so they built the clutch function on it) was pretty amazing. Thanks for the tip on that channel so long ago-"

They're referring to Project Binky. A British company called Bad Obsession Motorsport is installing a Toyota Celica GT-4 drive train into an Austin Mini. 6 years in the making. All custom fabrication. Very talented craftsmen. Worth watching.

Ok, so 898 is approaching reassembly time.

Engine Bay / Rear Suspension is getting there...

Engine is still a few weeks out, new pistons, valves, valve springs, cam, roller everything, double roller timing chain... 

So now I'm looking at what I will need to do to remate the ZF to my shiny fresh engine... 

So, now I'm begging for part #'s and/or advice

I'm hoping to replace pressure plate, throwout bearing, Pilot Bearing and of course clutch disc.

The pressure plate in the car was a "Zoom 020005" Long Style.  I can't find that model anywhere...  rebuild or replace?

Is the Throwout Bearing a standard Mustang item?

Steve L. had mentioned roller/needle bearings in the pilot bearing, does anyone know the sizes or (fingers crossed) a part #?

Clutch Disc was a "CF470" which I'm pretty sure is a discontinued Center Force model, I've read we both CAN & can NOT use a Chevy clutch...  any thoughts?

Thanks in advance to all!

MH

I assume you still have the steel pilot bearing/bushing extension piece? The Mangusta and very early Panteras used a bellhousing, diff case and Goose gearbox that had different dimensions, so the pilot was extended out from the crankshaft. I built a couple of custom ones with needle bearing ejectors so the bearings could be easily backed out, but I don't remember the measurements after all this time.

Chevy clutch here. Details: I have none! Sorry.

Michael,

Some pictures in here for you:

https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...a-clutch-help-please

Pilot bearing:  INA  #HK1512

I used a double lipped rubber seal that I found instead of a leather version which should be original......    15x21x5  MOS/D  Double Lip Oil Seal.     Sourced via Rocket Seals in Denver.  YMMV!

As for more info:   Try my post: OOPS I'm Doing It Again.....     for my rebuild process of last engine and ZF adventure....plus cracks......   I thought I posted all of the clutch info there also.

Pressure plate is stock 1968 Ford Mustang 302 clutch.     I ran a 10.5"   "synthetic" material (Kevlar like..) on both sides of the disc.     Disc is supposed to be some sort of Mopar piece that my clutch guy found before he passed away......bummer!   Besides losing a friend of the marque, lost all of the info too!   See top post for pic's of it!

Throw out bearing is stock Mustang Bower/BCA 1625 I believe.  (same as Pantera.)

Note that the clutch disc and pressure plate all say 10" but you can run a 10,5" disc with this pressure plate, no problem.

Pressure plate was C7ZZ-? number......if I must I could be persuaded to dig thru my receipts for the actual number.     Goose parts book lists a undeciperable partial Ford  number.... might be C7TA.....

I "may" have installed a HiPo 289/Boss 302 pressure plate.... C7ZZ-7550-A... My apologies for dead brain cells!!!!!

My Master Ford Parts Catalog lists the following pressure plate for a 1968 302 with 10" clutch: C6OZ-7550-G   Likely this is what came in the cars.

I know that my original flywheel had the proper C7TA(?) stamping on the backside which accepted the 10.5" components just fine, no redrilling required!

I found this from email dated 2010, but could be earlier:

My friend found me a clutch that fits the ‘goose with no modifications.  Its McLeod part number 260140.  I’m also using it with Hays pressure plate part number Hay-52-105 which was given to me by Roland Jaeckal.  Haven’t road tested it yet but it specs out the same and the hub shaft clears the crank adapter with no machining.  I’ll attach it tomorrow and hopefully get the engine installed sometime this week

Sorry for the goofy format!!!  Tried to fix it but failed.....short of typing it all over again.....

We REALLY NEED TO GET STICKIES for this website activated.....so that we can start a data reference area for this post and the other 401 just like it!!!    Post it once......more......!  Read many.......!    George???

Cheers!
Steve 

@bosswrench Yes, I have the extension piece, it seems fine, it's the brass bit inside it that I was thinking I should replace.

@mangusta I went through your threads earlier, lots of good info in there...  one quick question, I still have the original pilot bearing adapter, but you posted a pic of your non-original adapter

is it screwed into the crankshaft?  it looks like there are screw holes in the back of yours.  I haven't looked that deeply into mine just yet...

I'm pretty sure I still have the original flywheel, but the pressure plate is aftermarket, just trying to decide if I should rebuild or replace it.  Disc itself definitely needs replacement...  it's quite worn.

I'm deep into weatherstripping and brake lines as such as well...  today was a field trip to the machine shop, so I had to do more thinking that usual...

Until next time!

Thanks all

MH

Those screw holes are so you can thread two screws in from the back to force out a steel needle pilot bearing. Otherwise, you basically have to grind it out as the bearing is too small for a puller. To remove a bushing, you just screw a tap into the bronze until it bottoms. Further turning jacks the soft bushing out, but that won;t work with a small hardened needle bearing.

There's an extra hardened washer between the base of the adapter hole to take the force of the two removal screws without bending the bearings grease shield. This is so a bearing can be reused after being removed for inspection.Finally, the spud that presses into the crank is also threaded so the adapter can be removed from the crank. I spent quite a bit of time trying to design the thing to be service-able if you used a bearing instead of a bushing.
Jack DeRyke

@bosswrench posted:

Those screw holes are so you can thread two screws in from the back to force out a steel needle pilot bearing. Otherwise, you basically have to grind it out as the bearing is too small for a puller. To remove a bushing, you just screw a tap into the bronze until it bottoms. Further turning jacks the soft bushing out, but that won;t work with a small hardened needle bearing.

There's an extra hardened washer between the base of the adapter hole to take the force of the two removal screws without bending the bearings grease shield. This is so a bearing can be reused after being removed for inspection.Finally, the spud that presses into the crank is also threaded so the adapter can be removed from the crank. I spent quite a bit of time trying to design the thing to be service-able if you used a bearing instead of a bushing.
Jack DeRyke

@bosswrench are the factory adapters similarly attached or are they just pressed into place ?

MH

Yeah, for the clutch cover, there really aren't alternatives--just the early Ford 302 version. I see that Centerforce requires a different flywheel (I can't remember, maybe ~1985 Ford changed the clutch cover (and yes, new holes in the flywheel to go with it).

The 10-spline of the ZF is not a Ford, so I matched the Chevy disc plate. I see that Centerforce lists one 10.4" disc for The -1 ZF (with 1 1/8" spine, part 387132) and a different disc for Pantera using the -2 ZF (at 1 1/16").  But I'd have to think '132 disc is fine as a replacement. Steve noticed the nose itself should be inspected to make sure there is no interference against the flywheel, but seems to be a pretty safe route. And no reason to change the flywheel...

  For brake lines, good news is that the GHP71 was used on lots of cars of the time (Aston Martin, Morgan, Rolls, etc)--Lee

Michael,

The original pilot adapter is simple press in place with a thru hole for the needle bearing as far as I know.    My problem is that all of my car was "re-engineered" by owner #3......who is unknown and didn't leave any instruction manual with what they built!!!!

If you look up a Dash 1 Pantera adapter, you will find all the same pieces as were used in the GOose, including perhaps the leather seal....

Attached are some early Pantera bits....pic and a drawing of what John found in his early P-car! (Thanks John...your efforts continue to edumacate folks!!!)

Steve

I assume you will be going to a competent shop to have the fly wheel resurfaced. I would imagine there is a shop near you that can not only resurface a fly wheel but also rebuild your clutch disc and the pressure plate to good as new condition

In my 50,000 miles with 2511 I have done this twice and been fully satisfied

Larry

@mangusta thanks for the drawing and info

@lf-tp2511 Yes, they are one of the best shops in Houston.  I will check with them tomorrow to see if they can redo the clutch and pressure plate.  They are a machine shop, I'm not sure if this is a service they offer though...  Worst case I'm sure they can refer me somewhere...  I guess I was curious if there was an off the shelf option.

MH

...I have read through most of this and have a couple of suggestions.

1. The 'Shift-Box' (at the ZF) Should Never be DRY!! The Fact is, ALL Sliding/Moving Assemblies should be PACKED with Grease. Especially the 'Ball' Joint! The Box should practically be Near Filled with grease. All Metal to Metal contact Must have Lubrication. In the case of the 'Dry Box', after a good greasing, a Much Smoother, Easier Shifting will be Realized. Plus, the Parts will wear slower.

2. To remove a Steel Needle Bearing from it's Carrier...provided the Plan is to Never re-use the Bearing Again! First clean all grease out with a solvent. Clean solvent out and dry. With a Torch  heat the Outer Race of the Bearing, And ONLY the Bearing. You are NOT trying to Expand the Carrier, You want to Heat the Bearing to Expand it! Since the Thermal Dynamics of Steel, dictate "Contraction Is Greater than Expansion", after letting the assembly Air-Cool, the Bearing can be pulled out easily. It may even Fall Out. We do this Every Day at the LFW Machine Shop. Heating the Carrier to Expand it, may Not work...as Both Bearing and Carrier, are Expanding at the same Rate.

3. One does NOT, just change-Over and re-use a Flywheel, from One Engine to Another. Flywheels Must be Re-Balanced ALONG with ALL of the 'Rotating Assembly'...Even the Bearings are Included in a Professional Balancing. Just Bolt it On a New Engine...You'll wonder Why the Rearview Mirror Vibrates!

For What it's Worth,

MJ   

Marlin,

Two comments!    Great to hear from you!

1) that's a LOT of grease!!!     I wonder why ZF never did or recommended this..... No grease zerks where you would expect them to do so!  Case of replace parts sooner $$$   ???

2) In this case, you'd need the tiniest torch ever made to heat only the race of a 5/8" diameter needle bearing in the crank adapter!  These bearings are only about $5 new, so reuse is sort of a non starter.......!

Great thing to know about the retraction thing, at least for large bearings!

Cheers!
Steve

...You would use a Oxy-Acetylene torch with the Smallest Tip. Careful to Heat and NOT Melt! One could also, machine a SMALL, 'Double-Claw' Hook, that 'Snaps' into the Bearings' Outer Race...Then 'Slide-Hammer' the Bearing Out. Some Slide-Hammer KITS, come with Such a Pilot Bearing Removal Tool.

I remember a few years back, I machined a Carrier out of Steel and put a Oilite Bearing in it. I do not remember the Customer.

The Bearing I.D. was machined to 15mm for the (-1) ZF. The Measurements of the Above Blueprint look correct*. I have been asked to, but have Not machined one since, as they are Very Expensive!

Last, NO Zerk Fitting...That's Why the Box Must be Packed with the Stuff. Perhaps you'll take this opportunity to Drill and Tap, and install the First 'Box' Zerk Fitting.

MJ

* Very nice Drawing of the 'Extension'! Most aren't That well Done. Using Building/Construction Blueprint, 'Arrow-Heads', I have not seen that before. Interesting!

@mangusta posted:

Pilot bearing:  INA  #HK1512

I used a double lipped rubber seal that I found instead of a leather version which should be original......    15x21x5  MOS/D  Double Lip Oil Seal.     Sourced via Rocket Seals in Denver.  YMMV!

@mangusta HK1512 comes in as 15x21x12 instead of 12x21x5  are there variables I'm missing or is the difference in the rubber/leather seal?

@leea the GHP71 comes in as a three hose package, is that for front or rear? (or either) Right now I'm replacing the hardlines

MH

Michael,

You have it right, looking at it wrong.  

Pilot bearing is one thing,  seal is the other...... two items, two "descriptions".....

Seal was listed on invoice (???) as "15x21x5  MOS/D  Double Lip Oil Seal"

Cheers!

Steve

This stuff on Ford pilot bearings vs bushings comes up about every 5 years or so. Good thing we have the POCA Archives! Personally, I never use a rolling element bearing as a pilot nose support- in any car, since its in the end of the crank. And that is one of the MOST hostile places for a rolling element bearing: inaccessible, hot, intermittent high loads and vibration, with no chance of ever re-greasing it since you'd have to pry out the dust shields for grease access, after pulling the tranny.

For a ZF, a Chevy pilot BUSHING fits the shaft nose but needs a home-made ring-adapter to fit some Ford cranks. And with the price of copper these days, many cut-rate shops are installing those 85% steel Oilite pilot "bushings" that are hard and  magnetic. Even if initially greased/oiled, they go dry pretty quickly in that position. A gone-dry steel bearing OR a gone-dry steel/bronze bushing will wear the nose of a ZF. Repairs involve pulling the ZF, disassembly, TIG welding w/stainless steel plus machining ($$$)

So I use Lakewood Industries pilot BUSHING for any ZFs I work on, to protect the ZF nose. I use a magnet to verify it's real bronze. The pilot is SUPPOSED TO BE SACRIFICIAL to support and protect the tranny nose! That means they are not supposed to last forever. YMMV...

M!ke, the same brake hose is used on all 4 corners, its about 433mm total length and use the Girling 3/8-24 thread. https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...e-length-needed-asap

Some folks sell them in packages, but you need (4) of the GHP71.

And yes, I spent a lot of time looking for that Herringbone tubing too, but much better to make sure you get something out of rubber that isn't already 50 years old...replacement hoses are actually one of the easiest things to find for a Goose--Lee

ps. MJ, thanks for the distinction for the ZF shift box ("not dry", at least grease). The note especially on the seal to the shift box is that it should not be leaking from the ZF case, and the shift box should not be susceptible to leaking itself, something that probably won't happen on a Pantera but (with flipped tranny) will happen on the Goose.

...Bushings GUIDE a Shaft or a Drill Bit, to a Point, AXIALLY i.e. SLIDING in and Out, as In the 'Steering Rack' BUSHING.

A BEARING Supports a shaft that will ROTATE within It, and will Rotate AROUND the Shaft. As in a ZF Input Shaft and PILOT BEARING.

Oilite...Real Oilite is a Sintered Bronze that is Compressed at TONS of Pressure to remain 'Solid'. It is Porous and the pores are filled with a Light Oil. Oilite Never Drys-Out! Just warming it, and wearing-in, will cause the Oil to Oooze Out of the Pores. Carrying it in Your pocket, is Not advised, and will cause a Stain in Your Nice Pair of Slaks.

Oilite is Very Soft! Soft enough to Crush, Disrupt, Meld. It will 'Move', adjust, Conform from a High Point to a Low Point, thus self adjusting to most any Mis-Alignment, Axially, of the ZF Input Shaft. A custom Fit. 'Real' Oilite is Never Magnetic. Yes, I check this at all times. At the MOST, there may be 0.10 % Iron. This will not mar or wear the 'Gear-Hardened' Snout of any ZF! I have Tested these Bearings 'To Destruction'! Running the Bearing in the Lathe at 3000 RPM and Driving a Hard Steel Bar directly into it, with Great Force...the Oilite just 'Crushes', and is Displaced Out of the Way. Oilite Bronze is the Best Material for this Job.

MJ

Looking for thoughts on distributor swap.  I'm considering purchasing this as it appears to be a direct swap without an external box so I can keep the stock look.  It will give me an electronic ignition and rev limiter...  (I hate points)

https://www.summitracing.com/p...x-d7130800/make/ford

Anyone see any issues or concerns?  I will be using the stock Mangusta air cleaner, so clearance it always a concern.

MH

If you must....... simply put a Pertronix unit in your existing distributor.  Valve springs will be your rev limiter............if your eyeballs can't read the tach!  Which being Italian, is only a suggestion....!  Perhaps they now have a drop in unit that has the rev limiter feature, negating the need for a new dist' body?

I am more of a fan of Duraspark II for run of the mill "sane" driving.    No one should be taking their GOose to the rev limiter anyway.....as it takes $1K off of your 401K each time you do that.... !        Easy start on high compression engines, works, works, works......   Lube the center shaft of the distributor every oil change and you should be golden for the rest of it's life!

Cheers!
Steve

@mangusta posted:

If you must....... simply put a Pertronix unit in your existing distributor.  Valve springs will be your rev limiter............if your eyeballs can't read the tach!  Which being Italian, is only a suggestion....!  Perhaps they now have a drop in unit that has the rev limiter feature, negating the need for a new dist' body?

I am more of a fan of Duraspark II for run of the mill "sane" driving.    No one should be taking their GOose to the rev limiter anyway.....as it takes $1K off of your 401K each time you do that.... !        Easy start on high compression engines, works, works, works......   Lube the center shaft of the distributor every oil change and you should be golden for the rest of it's life!

Cheers!
Steve

Does the Dura Spark fit under the air cleaner?  Any issues with wiring to consider?

MH

I think you're referring to the "big cap" vs the normal cap.....  IIRC it is very close with the original air cleaner.  I used the large cap on mine, however, I had to make my own air cleaner for other reasons (taller intake!).     The DuraSpark II system will work with the small diameter cap just fine.  The large cap came about to control spark "scatter", where spark could jump to the wrong terminal under some conditions.

Wiring consists of using an original or prefab harness from control box to distributor, two wires to provide "ON & START" to the control box, and then reuse the original coil to ignition switch wire.   I think I wired in a relay to provide the either the start or run signal for some reason to do with the original Goose wiring at the starter solenoid.....  Would need to dig out my notes to confirm this.

But it was a fairly easy job to do.   I found an original dist-control box harness from a late 70's early 80's Galaxie-ish car, extended it to fit where I put the control box, and wired in the two power wires (start & run) to the control unit, and also into the original coil wire as needed.

I put my box back on the rear engine panel below the air cleaner  duct hole but it could go anywhere away from major heat sources.

The 10 degree "retard at start" provision of the 'BLUE' strain relief control box allowed me to run a "mechanical advance only" distributor of 8 degrees, and a total all in timing of about 34 degrees. At start the mechanical advance wouldn't yet be active, so now the advance is only 26, bring in the 10 degree retard and my initial timing needed to be 16 at the harmonic balancer....doable!  My compression ratio was somewhere in the 9.5-10.3 area (CRS!) running alloy heads, and it cranked over just fine in all conditions I ran into driving it to POCA rallies in Vegas and Phoenix!

I could have run a vacuum advance distributor also, but would have just limited the amount of vacuum advance......to get a tad more fuel mileage out of the deal. But I was getting close to 20mpg (again IIRC!) on regular pump garbage gas!!!

Your mileage may vary!!!
Steve

Excuse me for going far back and talking again about the Rub'n buff for the gearbox. Looks amazing and I'd like to apply some to my Pantera gearbox but I'm wondering what temperature this wax can withstand and how resistant it is to oil or gas drips???? ?

@rene4406 posted:

Excuse me for going far back and talking again about the Rub'n buff for the gearbox. Looks amazing and I'd like to apply some to my Pantera gearbox but I'm wondering what temperature this wax can withstand and how resistant it is to oil or gas drips???? ?

I haven't put it into service yet, but i know of several people using it on vintage Mercedes aluminum valve covers for years and they all love it.

One note, the commonly used color is "Silver Leaf", but personally I find "Pewter" to look more correct as the silver leaf seems to me to be unnaturally bright.  The pewter color looks more like the natural aluminum to my eyes.   If your order it, a little bit goes a LONG way and you can order multiples of just one color or multi color packs.  The tubes are small, but just one tube will likely do the entire transaxle AND the bellhousing!!!  I also recommend using a combination of cloth, Q-tips & stiff tooth brushes for application, and of course, thoroughly clean the piece before application

and WEAR GLOVES or you'll be silver from fingertips to elbows in no time.

Let us know how it turns out for you.

MH

I am still attempting to find a suitable replacement for the bitumen impregnated fiber board firewall pads. I have found the Filzfelt ($$$) but it is just the felt, not bitumen impregnated. I know we've discussed this before, has anyone found a replacement they liked? or something to avoid?  I got some that vintage Mercedes use and while it looks great, it's much thinner.

I am missing the two sidewall pieces, if anyone has measurements and/or pics of original pieces in those locations I would appreciate the info.   Same with the asbestos panels, I have the frames, but haven't located a decent replacement for the asbestos...

MH

@mkeh posted:

I haven't put it into service yet, but i know of several people using it on vintage Mercedes aluminum valve covers for years and they all love it.

One note, the commonly used color is "Silver Leaf", but personally I find "Pewter" to look more correct as the silver leaf seems to me to be unnaturally bright.  The pewter color looks more like the natural aluminum to my eyes.   If your order it, a little bit goes a LONG way and you can order multiples of just one color or multi color packs.  The tubes are small, but just one tube will likely do the entire transaxle AND the bellhousing!!!  I also recommend using a combination of cloth, Q-tips & stiff tooth brushes for application, and of course, thoroughly clean the piece before application

and WEAR GLOVES or you'll be silver from fingertips to elbows in no time.

Let us know how it turns out for you.

MH

Thank you for the answer.

Sorry I haven't posted updates on awhile, but refreshed engine has been sitting on a pallet ready to go back in... 

So far aside from the ol' take apart, clean and paint, I've put in new rear wheel bearings, new hard lines for brakes, refurbed ebrake cable, new bushings in frame bridge & sway bar, new pistons in calipers, new brake pads, new firewall pads cleaned and finished ZF, new pilot bearing, new clutch disc, new heat shielding (replaced asbestos), new throw out bearing, new brakes hoses...  and probably a few dozen other bits...

Today's WTF is putting the shifter back together...  The shifter itself doesn't go all the way in...  It's hitting the rod in the base of the shifter box.  AND if course, that's one of the few things I didn't take a picture of during disassembly...

What am I missing here?

MH

not sure I understand what your problem is. Perhaps this photo will provide some clarity for you.

if my memory serves me correctly, you should assemble the unit as pictured prior to installation  

The shift lever bottom ball should index between the two black hardened “guides” at the very bottom of the cage.

The clevis at the tip of the shift linkage rod will attach to the shift lever with the bolt through the two brass bushings

hope this helps just a little bit,

Larry

Hammer???  

It looks like one of the pads may be out of position in the housing???

It should be a "no problemo" sort of fit!

It is interesting to see that your Goose casting is different than what I found in #878,  Yours kinda sorta has Pantera-ish features, AND Goose uniqueness.

The Goose does not have the U-joint right out the back door of the shifter housing......but rather further back on the shaft......

See if you can't put the arm in place without the shifter box in the car, so that you can see where the lower ball resides when in place between two pads.

The shifter should slip thru the hole in the shift rod....with no issues.....ie check your shifter bushings to see that they are in proper position and not out of place.

I do NOT recall where those black foamy looking things resided.....CRS disease!

Steve

PS:   In my "Oops I'm doing it again" post, towards the end pages, I found some materials that I used for the heat shields.   Check it out. If you can't locate it, ping me back......I have some of that material still.  Possibly the rivets and a die for the rivets that I had machined up..........as well.

Ok, I just figured out that one of the plates is spring loaded and you must open it up and the rod slides inside...  BUT...  HTF do you open it when it's in the tunnel?

MH

Assemble on your workbench, install as a complete assembly

Larry

Can you try holding the housing up after you put the main shifter shaft in place.....THEN from the top, drop the shifter handle down while trying to reach into the tunnel hole and finagle the shifter ball into place by moving the spring loaded pad????     My car had no spring loaded pads that I can recall......otherwise I would have pulled them out of the "blowed up" picture!

The "no u-joint" at the rear of the housing (and so much more!) prevents Larry's response from working!    

Steve

Well, attempt #47 was semi-successful...   I wedged a small piece of rubber tubing between the plates and them tapped the shifter in which knocked out the tubing,,,  seemed like I was done,,,  except I wasn't...  now the sifter moves front to rear fine, but is EXTREMELY tight moving left to right...   I have a feeling it's all coming out again tomorrow...

seems like the plates are too tight against the little ball on the end of the shifter rod...

MH

When rotating R-L L-R, the shifter lever will be pivoting on the round shifter shaft (main rod), so that rod should have been lightly greased  (in the housing also) with some synthetic lube of sorts, and the bottom ball "should" be sliding also L-R  R-L as it's movement will be 180 out from the top of the shifter handle....and this point on the sliders "should" also be lubed.....?     Also your entire shifter shaft will be rotated when you do this....so it's not gonna be freeeeely floating......  Try it from the top of the shift lever and see how it feels......but be sure that all is lubed!!!

A note that hosed me up....    Be certain to adjust your single Heim joint at the rear chassis (two Heim joint systems could be different!) mounting point so that the shift rod doesn't get hung up on the rubber boot at the firewall, and dork with your 2 & 4 shift or perhaps 1-3-5 positions!    I rebuild my ZF thinking it was majorly hosed as it was popping out of gear  (but it also was minorly hosed!!!) when all that was wrong is that I had adjusted the Heim joint height incorrectly and the rubber boot was getting pinched!!!! DOH!!!!!    The shaft takes an unusual path when it actually moves........have seen some pretty bent up shifter shafts to get it right!  (Factory bends!!!)

Steve

@lf-tp2511 posted:

not sure I understand what your problem is. Perhaps this photo will provide some clarity for you.

if my memory serves me correctly, you should assemble the unit as pictured prior to installation  

The shift lever bottom ball should index between the two black hardened “guides” at the very bottom of the cage.

The clevis at the tip of the shift linkage rod will attach to the shift lever with the bolt through the two brass bushings

hope this helps just a little bit,

Larry

I think I see part of the problem, I don't have that splined coupler right off the back of the box, just a u-joint.  I dang sure ain't taking that apart as I'd NEVER get it back together while inside the tunnel!!!

My rubber hose temporary spacer seems like it will do the trick, I think there is an obstruction keeping the two plates from opening all the way and the ball at the end is REALLY tight in between the plates...  so I wouldn't call what it's doing "sliding" by any stretch.

I'll take it all out again, see what's going on with the plates and start over...

I appreciate y'all posting pics, it definitely helps to see others.  *IF* I had that splined coupler this would have been 100x easier...  Oddly, what is in there LOOKS factory...  I can't imagine why a previous owner would have made such a change...    and if they did just weld it all up, they did an impressive job!

Once I have it out again I'll post pics of how the shaft looks on the shifter end.

One other thing I just noticed, the shaft on mine extends all the way through the box and slides out the front!  I just noticed yours stops at the shifter!   Mine is like Steve posted and described.   I do have the "black foamy bits", on mine it's a single thick black rubber piece with a hole in the center.  I don't have the cup looking thing towards the top though.

Thanks guys.

MH

What you have is original!   What Larry posted is likely from a Pantera.

As I stated, your "housing" is slightly different than what was used in my Goose, but not by basic design and function.     The Goose got no detents or extra springs.....or the nice splined bit right behind the box!!!    ....and I don't recall any springs down in the ball area.....but I could be totally mistaken, has probably been twelve years since I visited my shifter box!  The shaft, if I recall, had to be completely removed in once piece all the way back to the ZF!

I know that I repainted the entire shaft assy, BUTT, I can't find any pictures of the whole shaft out of the car.  It was grungy in one pic.....beautiful fresh paint in the next go.......!

I like your idea of removing all, starting from ground zero!!!

Good luck!!!
Steve

Don’t know if this is something you would consider but I thought I would share. The photo I posted earlier is actually from a current USA eBay auction.

Larry

That seems like a very fair price, but I'm pretty sure I can get mine working again....

I just need to appease the DeT gods (again )...

I appreciate the info though...   and will be posting more soon...

Thanks,

MH

Your money is safe!!!! No need to worry! It wouldn't work in your car......... the shifter arm is too short!!!!        Steve

Took everything out, cleaned and polished all surfaces, greased the bjeebus out of it all and now she's shifting like new...

I'm pretty sure one (or both) of the T-plates was everso slightly rotated and sitting on that little ledge...   (Pic is from when I first pulled it out, T-piece sitting on top)

MH

SUPER BUENO!!!!       Perseverance pays off once again!!!

Cheers!!!!
Steve

Ok, today's challenge...  how on earth do you get the heater box and A/C out?  from pics I've found, the heater comes out first, but the little brace on the lower front that holds it up seems to be welded in place and the unit won't drop down enough to slide out.  on the A/C unit, is it just the two bolts up high in the rear, or are there bolts along the lower edge of the dash also?  seems like there would be, but I haven't found them yet...

She's VERY close to reinstalling the engine...  chasings hoses and belts at the moment.  I have the correct valve covers and DT Emblems, but I kinda like the aluminum ones for now

MH

UPDATE:  I got them both out...  anyone know which motors were used?  Heater motor says I. B. meo.  Pat. Pend.  ASTI

Thanks,

MH

  Mike, I'm not dead sure if at that time the maker was called just "Asti" instead of later "Gate Asti", the motor number is MP3920-31... The overall number MP3920 was apparently used for years and years, the -xx number will vary with the actual spec.  But its entirely likely that yours is fine, or that any electrician could clean it up.

I also guess that the UK mini fan blade would work. The Goose heater box is 'shared' with the Mini Innocenti (the Italia version of the Mini), and then only the chimney is added on the IPRA Goose box.  Somewhere on my shelf there I have NOS motor and also a used Innocenti box...

For the AC, I think the motor is a Behr, made in Ft. Worth TX . But that basic style was used for decades (esp, 80's Alfa Spider), and even I think the retrofit Pantera AC fan solutions just may fit. Trying to find genuine 60's AC components is damn difficult, it just seems that not many cars, really, had AC...Lee

ps. btw, I think your valve covers are pretty cool, got a picture to share?

@leea posted:

  Mike, I'm not dead sure if at that time the maker was called just "Asti" instead of later "Gate Asti", the motor number is MP3920-31... The overall number MP3920 was apparently used for years and years, the -xx number will vary with the actual spec.  But its entirely likely that yours is fine, or that any electrician could clean it up.

Mine is in very good shape aside from a questionable bushing on the cage end...  Wasn't turning at all initially, now it's turning ok...  Could be better though...  The bushing might clean up. 

Thanks for the Innocenti info, always good to know possible sources if needed...

A/C investigation is pending...

I'll post close ups of the valve covers soon...

MH

For clarity's sake (and my old guy sanity!) is it possible to place a picture of the "type" of AC/Heater system youse guys are a working on???    I'm guessing that you are working on the later "in dash" AC vs the most common "underdash" version???

The conversation was throwing me, in that the under-dash system was made in Spain.... and you were mentioning non-Spanish vehicles!!!

Good stuff!!!
Steve

Steve, Mike's car is 8ma898, so almost perfectly familiar Ayacsa AC on the right  and separate IPRA box to the left for the heater...So Spanish and Italian. I haven't ever seen pictures of the in-dash solution at 8ma1100 and later.

The only reason for "almost perfectly familiar" is another twist on the AC box for Mike, where he doesn't have a glove box (he does have a glove box door...) and instead of the glove box he has additional AC vent piping to exit by the driver... But that is all a different story Lee

Well crapples...  I had a full reply typed out and got distracted and never hit send.

Quick version is "what he said"

+ I cleaned both heater fan motor and condenser fan motor and they're both working fine now...  Condenser fan motor was working before, just made an odd sound...   Also having new hoses made as well as condenser itself...    They goal is to have A/C working...   Even sourced some of the forbidden juice !!! (R12).

I might replace A/C fan motor in hopes that a newer one will move more air...

Yes, 898 has additional vents left and right under the dash by each door jamb...   and an interesting manifold of sorts feeding them...  I spoke with Bill Lavinger (owner from 70's to 90's) and he said those were factory...  He owned three Mangustas, so I knows them well...

MH

Lee, here are my valve cover options...  I do have a set of the "proper" Mangusta emblems for the blue ford covers...  They just aren't on there in the pics.  I'm not sure the history on the other set (aluminum ones) but i like the look of them...

MH

Michael,

I believe that those valve covers "could be" period Edelbrock or one of the other big names.......I have a set somewhere but couldn't put my hands on them if  you gave me another Mangusta!!!  (But I'd sure try!!!)      The logos look either custom made or modified Pantera versions not the "pork chop" version the Goose typically comes with....

I would also implore you to install a thermostat in the engine.   If you've already modified the 90 degree fitting off the front of the intake to accept a t-stat, well then good job!!!! 

Without one, you are begging to wear out your engine prematurely.  It will never warm up....to proper operating temps!  ....OK perhaps not never, but perhaps not as quickly as it should......to get your heater working ASAP for winter driving!!!

I had a think 3/8" or so piece machined up to fit between the pipe, and the intake.  It had the recess carved into it and fit using 2 gaskets and slightly longer bolts to secure it.    Worked like a champ! Quick warm ups!   NO ONE will ever point it out that it's "not factory"!!!!

Cheers!!!
Steve

Ooops! Missed replying to the AC thing.....

1) NEVER have seen AC venting at door jambs.  Yet.   Not that they were not put in place by the factory, but this is the first that I have ever seen mention of it.   Not sure what all Bill L has seen or owned, but pic's would be super!   I always wanted to put a vent on the drivers side of the steering wheel!

2) AC Fan Motor: YESSS!!!!! This is the ONE, ok ONE of the things that dearly could use more HP!!!  The fan motor for blowing cold air into the cabin fails......  I had heard of a guy in Santa Cruz that could rewind them to get more RPM's but failed to push it further.  TOOOO much apart....needed to go back together....

In the end, with new rotary pump, new hoses, lubed bushings in the condensor fan out back, and a good charge of R12.....  that AC unit blew cold air something fierce....sorta like a small kitten.......when it needed to blow LIKE A BIG LION!!!!     Many times while driving the Goose, it was simply easier to roll the window down just to have fresh air blowing around vs trying to kid yourself that that measly sickly fan motor would push enuf air to cool the cabin down!!!!

I wish I could have spent more time exploring another electric motor for that feature! It sorely needs it.

Ciao!
Steve

@mangusta posted:

Michael,

I believe that those valve covers "could be" period Edelbrock or one of the other big names.......I have a set somewhere but couldn't put my hands on them if  you gave me another Mangusta!!!  (But I'd sure try!!!)      The logos look either custom made or modified Pantera versions not the "pork chop" version the Goose typically comes with....

I would also implore you to install a thermostat in the engine.   If you've already modified the 90 degree fitting off the front of the intake to accept a t-stat, well then good job!!!!

Without one, you are begging to wear out your engine prematurely.  It will never warm up....to proper operating temps!  ....OK perhaps not never, but perhaps not as quickly as it should......to get your heater working ASAP for winter driving!!!

I had a think 3/8" or so piece machined up to fit between the pipe, and the intake.  It had the recess carved into it and fit using 2 gaskets and slightly longer bolts to secure it.    Worked like a champ! Quick warm ups!   NO ONE will ever point it out that it's "not factory"!!!!

Cheers!!!
Steve

Actually, Gary (previous owner) had that snout redone in SS and had a thermostat space included.   In Texas we don't have much need for a thermostat in our cars...   and I will definitely never take the goose out if it's bad weather...   Generally keeping it from overheating is a real concern here...  Getting the heater working is really more of an OCD kinda thing...

But...  If I were to put one in, this WOULD be the time to do so...

The cast valve covers look pretty old school, which I like...  They seem period correct for a '69 model...  The emblems are nicely done cast pieces, but their origin is unknown...  I used the 3M thin double sided tape that has the grip of death when I put them on...   So far they've help up nicely. (5 years)

MH

AHAH!!!!
You have Gary's car!   I recall him doing that now....somewhere I have pic's of what he did!  VERY NICE work!

TX weather or not, the T-stat is a smart thing to do.  Doesn't cost you poo to put in, and it really doesn't hinder keeping the engine cooler...... that's all radiator fans and water pump capacity for better "water movement".   I ran it all the way to Phoenix from CA, twice for the POCA national show, and didn't even worry about it!   If you have the original FIAMM radiator, you just need better fans and shrouding.  Put the fan switch on relays....!!!   The radiators were well built!!! Just heavy!

Still have the old C9AF-U Holley on it??  Good carb!!!  I love them....735CFM with the vac secondary and heated choke.  Put them on 428's I owned, 390, and 351s! They just work with minor jetting for proper fuel/air ratio depending on engine size.  Will need another soon like down the road!

Cheers!
Steve

@mangusta posted:

Ooops! Missed replying to the AC thing.....

1) NEVER have seen AC venting at door jambs.  Yet.   Not that they were not put in place by the factory, but this is the first that I have ever seen mention of it.   Not sure what all Bill L has seen or owned, but pic's would be super!   I always wanted to put a vent on the drivers side of the steering wheel!

2) AC Fan Motor: YESSS!!!!! This is the ONE, ok ONE of the things that dearly could use more HP!!!  The fan motor for blowing cold air into the cabin fails......  I had heard of a guy in Santa Cruz that could rewind them to get more RPM's but failed to push it further.  TOOOO much apart....needed to go back together....

In the end, with new rotary pump, new hoses, lubed bushings in the condensor fan out back, and a good charge of R12.....  that AC unit blew cold air something fierce....sorta like a small kitten.......when it needed to blow LIKE A BIG LION!!!!     Many times while driving the Goose, it was simply easier to roll the window down just to have fresh air blowing around vs trying to kid yourself that that measly sickly fan motor would push enuf air to cool the cabin down!!!!

I wish I could have spent more time exploring another electric motor for that feature! It sorely needs it.

Ciao!
Steve

I'll take some pics of the side vents and manifold...  It's definitely NOT some homebrew setup...  I'm wondering if it was a design used on the Ghibli or other such cars that DeT decided to try out on a goose... 

Lee and I both have the solid wood steering wheels...  No leather sections at all...  So DeT wasn't above randomly trying different things...

MH

Yeah, Steve, I think the improvement on 8ma898 AC venting was to remove the backpressure from the mis-applied Ayacsa unit. Just cranking up the horsepower probably less efficient: As you know, the Ayacsa unit came with 3 vents, but the right-most vent was sealed off by DeT either for looks or to somehow prioritize air to the driver...But you can see, this blocks the most optimum outlet for the air and then forces all the output thru a rather narrow neck. Note also on this  picture (the NOS, were we sleeping thread) all the holes in the top panel--clearly an attempt by Ayacsa to let the thing breathe a bit without getting noisy-as-a--clogged-vaccum-cleaner...

  Mike's car is best described in a Binky episode--a glove box door, but no glove box---instead, air tubes that take the air to under the driver's left dash...

And yes, the Cal-custom look for the Valve covers is my 2nd favorite look...my favorite is the Detomaso Weslake conversion I have only seen in a very old Ford 302 hop-up book... (see pic) Lee

@mangusta posted:

AHAH!!!!
You have Gary's car!   I recall him doing that now....somewhere I have pic's of what he did!  VERY NICE work!

TX weather or not, the T-stat is a smart thing to do.  Doesn't cost you poo to put in, and it really doesn't hinder keeping the engine cooler...... that's all radiator fans and water pump capacity for better "water movement".   I ran it all the way to Phoenix from CA, twice for the POCA national show, and didn't even worry about it!   If you have the original FIAMM radiator, you just need better fans and shrouding.  Put the fan switch on relays....!!!   The radiators were well built!!! Just heavy!

Still have the old C9AF-U Holley on it??  Good carb!!!  I love them....735CFM with the vac secondary and heated choke.  Put them on 428's I owned, 390, and 351s! They just work with minor jetting for proper fuel/air ratio depending on engine size.  Will need another soon like down the road!

Cheers!
Steve

Gary & I have been friends for 25 years...  He was my co-piloto when we were racing La Carrera Panamericana in my 230SL.  In fact, around 2004 he told me he wanted to buy a Pantera and I found 898 for sale online and sent him the info...  Next thing I knew it was headed to Texas...

I bagged-n-tagged the original radiator fans and installed twin tractor fans, they work great.

I called Gary when I was wrestling with that downtube that was corroded...  He said it was a "right place at the right time" kinda thing on having that snout redone...  It was definitely well made...  and Gary likes to plan for any eventuality, so he had them add space for a thermostat.

Yep, still have the Holley carb, it ain't broke, so I ain't fixin' it...   I considered going to an EFI, but I kinda like the old Holley...   Runs great!!!

MH

Lee,

Holes in top?    Right picture?   NICE UNIT!!!!  Will 3 speed Pantera (MSC Supply?) motor fit this?

Steve

She has been re-engined!!!   Still have a ton of work before starting her, but the nerve racking bit is over...

MH

DON'T IT FEEL GOOD?????!!!!!!

Each thing you bolt on from here out will be all that much closer to VROOOM!!!!

Exciting!!!!
Steve

I was so tired of seeing that empty engine bay!!!   Then so stressed about the install...  Luckily I recruited several friends that are also wrenchers...  More eyes and hands are always a good thing when shoving the baby back into the womb!!!

Only issues so far were that the alternator bridge wouldn't go in until I unbolted the frame bride and lifted the ZF up a bit...  But it's in and happy...   Also, somehow when I put the shifter shaft back in i ran the rear end of it outside of the frame rails and didn't tuck it back in at the rear... and of course now I have to take apart the middle u-joint to route it properly...   But no broken rear window or damaged parts...  So I call it a good day...

I hope to have her ready to start next weekend...

Thanks to you Steve and the rest of you guys for all the tips, advice, warnings and encouragement along the way...  Front suspension is next, then off to paint and body...

The journey continues!!!

MH

Mike,

Ah yes, that pesky rear upper ladder bar!!!  I recall futzing with that and bellhousing or ???? removal/install!!!

Front suspension is easy peasy!
Please tell me that once you get it running AND rolling, that  you'll take it for a spin or three and see how it feels!!!!!    Perhaps you'll reconsider painting it......    

Steve

I'll take her around the block a few times, but she'll be in for paint soon...  I have already stripped lights and shiny bits in preparation.  I drilled small alignment holes in the spine mounts  and such, don't want to start putting all that back on until she's painted.

  Speaking of...  Should the spine hinges be painted body color or black? Should I isolated the steel spine from the aluminum deck lids somehow?  I have literally zero galvanic corrosion so far and would like to keep it that way.

Thanks again,

MH

Mike,

I learned long ago that I can't comment about "what something should be" in terms of stock paint and where, as my car had been "touched" in so many ways (see many of my old posts!) that it's not safe to use it as a gospel!

I do remember paint in the rain channels of the spine piece, and if the hinges are welded in place on the spine, they then probably were painted from the top..... from the bottom........I'll defer to others that may have a more original car than mine!!

I don't recall seeing any insulation materials between the hinges and the hatch covers......and my car was very free of hatch corrosion "that I could see".... so am thinking that the hatch steel frames were essentially grounded to the chassis via the hinges.    Any corrosion resistant treating would be between the aluminum skins and the hatchs' steel frameworks...??

Any chemical engineers out there looked under their skins? 

Cheers!
Steve

Galvanic corrosion occurs with direct contact between two different kinds of metals in the Galvanic Series, not necessarily whether there's an electric  ground. I suggest separating the aluminum from all iron/steel with a non-conducting strip that's outside the galvanic series, especially if you live in a damp climate (like So-Cal this year!).

@bosswrench posted:

Galvanic corrosion occurs with direct contact between two different kinds of metals in the Galvanic Series, not necessarily whether there's an electric  ground. I suggest separating the aluminum from all iron/steel with a non-conducting strip that's outside the galvanic series, especially if you live in a damp climate (like So-Cal this year!).

@bosswrench Do you think a layer of paint is sufficient?

MH

Yes, but... lots of stuff that depends on paint as a protectant tends to dry, harden and chip over time. Cars vibrate their parts in amazing ways. If you do, just grab the support bracket(s) and pull on them now 'n then to check for looseness.

.....grab them gently!!!!   They're supposed to be welded........   Makes ya wonder how the XKE race alloy race car bodies were attached....or the alloy Cobra or GT40 skins were attached or insulated from...the steel chassis!!???   I'll ask another Goose owner out here that just finished his, ok...made it show worthy...enough to drive....and had to go thru the same shite!!!

Steve

Mike, yeah. pretty much once the car is assembled, the only thing you can do to avoid the electrical action is to keep it dry...and paint is at least a way to keep the metal electrically isolated. At build, putting tape over the steel is the best way, but luckily you don't have that option .

  When attached directly, DeT used copper rivets--for example the engine covers, where the support strap is attached to the aluminum trays...or on the hood at the front edge. I've got no idea how this helps, unless it drives for just the opposite of isolation (by quenching the voltage to zero maybe?)

Cosmetically, all the inside of the rear (that the driver could see thru the back) is blackened. For paint lines, the combination of 8ma1074 and that gold car show I think how the factory blackened, https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...for-sale-in-michigan , esp black over the latches, over the "roll bar" at B pillar (everything to the inside of the roof edge and up to the chrome/vinyl edging) and then covered with the gasket),  but the outside-facing channel of the spline is body color.

8ma1074 was downright peculiar with the blackening line for the hood/engine covers, esp in the way the black was carried over onto the aluminum (where anybody in their right mind would have taped at the edge of the aluminum). That and the blackening on the forward interior edge of the door...so freaky that only a factory would have done it (!) And I'd love to see confirmation in another car, so hoping that Steve's pictures of 8ma716 (before it was re-painted) agree.

  8ma1046 was original paint, but since all black not so easy to distinguish the flatter blackening...

Mike,

Lee's got the idea pretty good....seal....seal....

I spoke with another owner nearby, who just went thru repairing his hatches, of rust or corrosion along the bottom edges.  When asked about the contact between aluminum and steel at the edges, he said that they found some sort of "creosote" dipped/saturated material that was between the two metals....of course by now, this material had turned to dust.   He mentioned using sealer.....but couldn't provide any further details, other than "I'm never going to wash the car....."!

As far as insulating the hinges, there is no need for this.   At the hinges, you're at steel, welded to steel (at the spine piece) then bolted to steel (at the hatch frame), using steel bolts thru all the bits.   So even if you insulated the spine hinge flap from the hatch frame, the thru bolts negate all of this!

The culprit or problem area is where the aluminum skin sits against the frame, or where it is folded over to retain to the frame. These are the areas to be concerned with.   Keeping air (contains moisture)  off of these areas would seem the goal!

I would think that the GT40 and Cobra guys would be concerned with this sort of thing also, and may be a resource to tap.    I will throw a note across the pond and check with a Goose owner who owns a body shop dealing with rebuilding  Jags and such other high end cars from the 50's-70's.  See how they deal with it!

Steve

Ok, new question...   I need to disconnect the shifter rod near the heim joint to route the rear piece inside the frame going to the ZF...  Can I drive this roll pin out and pull it apart?

or do I have to take apart the little U-joint?

MH