Sticky #7: Tires for OEM 15 inch wheels

In addition to Jimmy’s comments above; in the late 1980’s, Garry Hall paid to have Campagnolo (by then Technomagnesio) restore the tooling for the 15” x 10” wheels that are used on the rear of a regular body Pantera. As part of the deal, Garry imported a container load of these wheels. I believe he sold all of them and I think it’s safe to say, the majority wound up with 285/50-15 P7’s mounted on them. Pirelli certainly knows how many they sold during the decade they were available. Gauging potential demand should be fairly easy and I’m sure it’s far more than 200 tires!
quote:

Originally posted by www.longstone.com:

I suppose here are my suggestions from what is available currently ... early cars are easy 185/70VR15 and 215/70VR15 are both available from Avon CR6ZZ ...



quote:

Originally posted by www.longstone.com:

... the CR6ZZ ... which although it is a great track tyre isn't really ideal for a road car, specially if it doesn't do many miles ...



quote:

Originally posted by George P:

... I am not aware of any owner, not even among those whom are most discriminating in regards to originality, that want to equip their car with a 185/70 & 215/70 tyre set. I would discourage you from putting any effort in that direction ...






quote:

Originally posted by www.longstone.com:

... what you do for the 285/50R15 rears for now i don't know ...



They use 295/50R15, all of which are speed rated S. They also have to accept using different make and model tyres for the front and rear.

The 295/50R15 size tyre is 26.6 inches in diameter, 0.40" larger than the 285/50R15 size tyre. This creates two problems which people "live with". (1) The difference in diameter between that tyre and the 225/50R15 front tyre is 2.7", this upsets the intended level ride height of the chassis, giving the chassis a pronounced "nose-down" stance. (2)The 295/50R15 tyres "fill" the rear wheel arches more than the 225/50R15 front tyres fill the front wheel arches. This creates an aesthetic imbalance in the appearance of the car.




quote:

Originally posted by www.longstone.com:

... with there being only 100 cars it is difficult to ask a tyre manufacturer to make them ...



quote:

Originally posted by George P:

... Some owners adopted use of 225/50 and 285/50 P7s 20 to 30 years ago, only to have the rear tyre fall-out of production ...



quote:

Originally posted by David_Nunn:

... in the late 1980’s, Garry Hall paid to have Campagnolo (by then Technomagnesio) restore the tooling for the 15” x 10” wheels that are used on the rear of a regular body Pantera. As part of the deal, Garry imported a container load of these wheels. I believe he sold all of them and I think it’s safe to say, the majority wound up with 285/50-15 P7’s mounted on them. Pirelli certainly knows how many they sold during the decade they were available. Gauging potential demand should be fairly easy and I’m sure it’s far more than 200 tires!



The majority of GTS and Group 3 Panteras were originally equipped with Goodyear Arrivas, only the small number manufactured after 1978 were originally equipped with 225/50 and 285/50 P7s. However, be assured that P7s eventually found their way onto all the earlier models as well. On top of that, as both David and I have tried to explain in our own ways, the factory's entire stock of spare 15 x 10 wheels, plus a cargo container load of additional wheels, have been installed on some of the 6,600 Pushbutton, Pre-L, and L model Panteras. The demand for the 15x10 wheel is so great that TWO aftermarket companies offer them. The aftermarket versions have not sold in large numbers simply because the proper tires have not been available. Suffice it to say that the demand for the 225/50 and 285/50 tyre set exceeds the demand for the 285/40 and 345/35 tyre set. A conservative estimate would be perhaps 600 cars.

-G
I think we have to take it one step at a time.

225/50YR15 P7 is available https://www.longstonetyres.co....relli-cinturato.html that is a step forward.

345/35ZR15 P7 will be available any day now https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato-p7.html also good news.

285/40ZR15 P7 available soon. that has to be a massive step forward for you guys, because that is an odd tyre sized, that is doesn't really make sense to make. However Pirelli are currently celebrating there heritage. so we benefit. and by benefit. It is my business, but i will trade fairly. so look what you can currently buy a 345/35R15 tyre for and if all goes well you will be really pleased with the price of the up and coming P7. Also bare in mind that the 255/60R15 CN12 was only available through Lamborghini the were over 1`500 GB P https://www.longstonetyres.co....-cinturato-cn12.html

Here is where i'm going to get controversial. fitting 345/35R15 tyres on a car do not make it handle well. it gives you epic levels of grip, but it doesn't make it handle. and fitting 285 section tyres is just bonkers. However, i do get it because it is cool. but lets not kid our selves that massively fat tyres make a car handle well, cos they don't. yes straight line stopping is epic. yes for the staggering amounts of power it does diminish wheel spin, but it does not handle. you can't change the laws of physics.

The question of 285/50R15 P7 tyres. for now i suggest fitting 255/60R15 CN12 Cinturato. If you want wider then 275/55R15 Avon CR6ZZ https://www.longstonetyres.co....vr15-avon-cr6zz.html or 295/50R15 CR6ZZ https://www.longstonetyres.co....vr15-avon-cr6zz.html please don't fit wobbly side walled crap tyres. have some European carcasses on your tyres.

I can't believe you would consider fitting an S rated tyre. what make of 295/50R15 are you fitting.

It may have sounded like i was criticizing Pantera Doug's choice of Avon CR6ZZ tyres, but really until recently they are by far the the best handling tyres. I mean by miles. what 295/50R15 are being fitted currently?

Please don't criticize Pirelli for what they are doing currently because it is brilliant!

As to making 285/50R15 P7. may be it will happen. specially if the 285/40R15 P7 sells well


CAN I GET THESE TYRES IN THE US? - YES - LUCAS CLASSIC TYRES https://www.lucasclassictires....li-Cinturato_c54.htm THEY MIGHT NOT BE LISTED ON THEIR WEB SITE. BUT THEY WILL BE DISTRIBUTING THEM SO LEAVE A BACK ORDER, AND THEY WILL LOOK AFTER YOU.
Still no answer about the 285/ 55 R15, I know I write badly in English but I think I'm understandable anyway.

The cars are less handle with 285 or more, it's true but when used on public roads, it's better not to be cross in all turns Smiler

The 285/40 W R15 already exists at Michelin in road homologated racing tire and the 225/50 exists in the same profile.

http://www.oldtimerreifen24.de...15-TB5-R-medium.html
quote:
Originally posted by www.longstone.com:
I think we have to take it one step at a time.

225/50YR15 P7 is available https://www.longstonetyres.co....relli-cinturato.html that is a step forward.

345/35ZR15 P7 will be available any day now https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato-p7.html also good news.

285/40ZR15 P7 available soon. that has to be a massive step forward for you guys, because that is an odd tyre sized, that is doesn't really make sense to make. However Pirelli are currently celebrating there heritage. so we benefit. and by benefit. It is my business, but i will trade fairly. so look what you can currently buy a 345/35R15 tyre for and if all goes well you will be really pleased with the price of the up and coming P7. Also bare in mind that the 255/60R15 CN12 was only available through Lamborghini the were over 1`500 GB P https://www.longstonetyres.co....-cinturato-cn12.html

Here is where i'm going to get controversial. fitting 345/35R15 tyres on a car do not make it handle well. it gives you epic levels of grip, but it doesn't make it handle. and fitting 285 section tyres is just bonkers. However, i do get it because it is cool. but lets not kid our selves that massively fat tyres make a car handle well, cos they don't. yes straight line stopping is epic. yes for the staggering amounts of power it does diminish wheel spin, but it does not handle. you can't change the laws of physics.

The question of 285/50R15 P7 tyres. for now i suggest fitting 255/60R15 CN12 Cinturato. If you want wider then 275/55R15 Avon CR6ZZ https://www.longstonetyres.co....vr15-avon-cr6zz.html or 295/50R15 CR6ZZ https://www.longstonetyres.co....vr15-avon-cr6zz.html please don't fit wobbly side walled crap tyres. have some European carcasses on your tyres.

I can't believe you would consider fitting an S rated tyre. what make of 295/50R15 are you fitting.

It may have sounded like i was criticizing Pantera Doug's choice of Avon CR6ZZ tyres, but really until recently they are by far the the best handling tyres. I mean by miles. what 295/50R15 are being fitted currently?

Please don't criticize Pirelli for what they are doing currently because it is brilliant!

As to making 285/50R15 P7. may be it will happen. specially if the 285/40R15 P7 sells well


CAN I GET THESE TYRES IN THE US? - YES - LUCAS CLASSIC TYRES https://www.lucasclassictires....li-Cinturato_c54.htm THEY MIGHT NOT BE LISTED ON THEIR WEB SITE. BUT THEY WILL BE DISTRIBUTING THEM SO LEAVE A BACK ORDER, AND THEY WILL LOOK AFTER YOU.


What I say here carries little influence throughout the Pantera community. I accept my comments as fair game to criticism. That's ok with me.

Here's my qualification. I have NO vested interest in promoting one tire over another.

ANY tire choice here is a compromise on a Pantera. There is not going to be a perfect choice.

What works and what doesn't work is what tire satisfies the "criteria" best. The criteria is the choice of the purchaser.

We can debate until the cows come home but even major magazines funded by tire companies that do a shootout rarely can settle on one specific combination because they can't settle on the criteria that those tires need to satisfy.

Being a person who's first experience with "high performance" street tires was the Goodyear Polyglass, ANY of the tires we can buy today are in another and a better universe then they are and certainly 1000% better then the Goodyear Arriva's that the US Panteras were delivered with new.

I applaud ANY effort someone like Pirelli makes on supplying these "old" tires and say thank you Pirelli and thank you to Dougal. Big Grin
Dougal, I think it is great that Pirelli is going to make some of these tires again. That is some of the best news for Pantera owners wanting to keep their stock rims. I plan on purchasing a complete set when they become available. Thank you as well for listening and being an intermediary.
quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:
Still no answer about the 285/ 55 R15, I know I write badly in English but I think I'm understandable anyway.


Does anyone make a 285/55R15? It isn't OE. I never get asked for that tyre. I suppose also, though it might be the same diameter as a 255/60 the outer extremities of the tyre might be an issue rubbing.

quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:The 285/40 W R15 already exists at Michelin in road homologated racing tire and the 225/50 exists in the same profile.

http://www.oldtimerreifen24.de...15-TB5-R-medium.html


yep we do the TB range also https://www.longstonetyres.co....0-classic-tyres.html no doubt they are fantastic tyres, i have raced on them. However we are in the same situation as we are with the CR6ZZ. great tyre, but using racing rubber on a car that doesn't necessarily do lots of road miles, isn't really ideal. but they are great. you can run TB15 fully treaded or TB5 which are road legal semi slick tyres
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
What I say here carries little influence throughout the Pantera community. I accept my comments as fair game to criticism. That's ok with me.

Here's my qualification. I have NO vested interest in promoting one tire over another.



Your coments and opinions have influence on me. Your the fitment guides and quantities of cars i have saved and will be using them in discussions with Pirelli when considering what tyres to make in the future.


quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug: ANY tire choice here is a compromise on a Pantera. There is not going to be a perfect choice.

What works and what doesn't work is what tire satisfies the "criteria" best. The criteria is the choice of the purchaser.


Well i think we have the early cars sorted out with the XWX. https://www.longstonetyres.co....es/michelin-xwx.html I would think that was one of the best tyres in period and is perfect now. I don't think there are any compromises there for early '70s cars.

The good news for the near future is we will have 285/40R15 P7 & 345/35R15 P7 https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato/p7.html so for the later cars again we will. so hopefully that will be another batch of cars where we have the best possible set up with no compromise.

We have a 225/50R15 P7 so we are half way to sorting out the 79 -84 cars. all we need is a 285/50R15 P7

So i think thats pretty good going.

quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:I applaud ANY effort someone like Pirelli makes on supplying these "old" tires and say thank you Pirelli and thank you to Dougal. Big Grin


Thank you.
quote:
Originally posted by www.longstone.com:
quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:
Still no answer about the 285/ 55 R15, I know I write badly in English but I think I'm understandable anyway.


Does anyone make a 285/55R15? It isn't OE. I never get asked for that tyre. I suppose also, though it might be the same diameter as a 255/60 the outer extremities of the tyre might be an issue rubbing.


Thank you, I have my answer, they never existed for "normal" cars, they exist only for 4x4. Are 4x4 tires very different?
quote:

Originally posted by George P:

... They also have to accept using different make and model tyres for the front and rear.

The 295/50R15 size tyre is 26.6 inches in diameter, 0.40" larger than the 285/50R15 size tyre. This creates two problems which people "live with". (1) The difference in diameter between that tyre and the 225/50R15 front tyre is 2.7", this upsets the intended level ride height of the chassis, giving the chassis a pronounced "nose-down" stance. (2)The 295/50R15 tyres "fill" the rear wheel arches more than the 225/50R15 front tyres fill the front wheel arches. This creates an aesthetic imbalance in the appearance of the car.



quote:

Originally posted by David_Nunn:

... in the late 1980’s, Garry Hall paid to have Campagnolo (by then Technomagnesio) restore the tooling for the 15” x 10” wheels that are used on the rear of a regular body Pantera. As part of the deal, Garry imported a container load of these wheels. I believe he sold all of them and I think it’s safe to say, the majority wound up with 285/50-15 P7’s mounted on them. Pirelli certainly knows how many they sold during the decade they were available. Gauging potential demand should be fairly easy and I’m sure it’s far more than 200 tires!



quote:

Originally posted by George P:

The majority of GTS and Group 3 Panteras were originally equipped with Goodyear Arrivas, only the small number manufactured after 1978 were originally equipped with 225/50 and 285/50 P7s. However, be assured that P7s eventually found their way onto all the earlier models as well. On top of that, as both David and I have tried to explain in our own ways, the factory's entire stock of spare 15 x 10 wheels, plus a cargo container load of additional wheels, have been installed on some of the 6,600 Pushbutton, Pre-L, and L model Panteras. The demand for the 15x10 wheel is so great that TWO aftermarket companies offer them. The aftermarket versions have not sold in large numbers simply because the proper tires have not been available. Suffice it to say that the demand for the 225/50 and 285/50 tyre set exceeds the demand for the 285/40 and 345/35 tyre set. A conservative estimate would be perhaps 600 cars.

-G


George makes a great point, the 295’s are taller than the 285’s and when used in conjunction with a 225 it does not fill the wheel wells equally. It can give the car a slight rake. The 295’s also do not have a great matching front tire forcing owners to run non matching tires or brands.

David made a great point, Pirelli should have records of exactly how many 285’s were sold when they were being produced.

Dougal, I noticed that you posted again about the 79-84 cars that used these tires, however the production number is very misleading. As George, myself, and David tried to explain, there is a much greater number of cars that have or had the 15x10’s mounted.

The 15x10” wheels are currently being offered by Mrfiat.

The 285’s will fit on any narrow body Pantera using any rim that is between 15x8 to 15x10 as stated in Pirelli’s P7 tire brochure.
Not that I'm aware of, Rene. Pirelli occasionally makes a close analogue size 275-55x 15" P-7R, speed-rated street tire that properly fits an 8" Campy, or with a little stretching, a 10" Campy. And in spite of whats on the Internet, I'm told by a Pireli rep' that Pirelli's 'R' designation does NOT mean 'race' but instead means 'rally', as the P-7R's internal construction added extra belts just underneath the tread area. This was to restrict tire growth at speed, so precision rally speedometer/odometers would register more accurate speeds and distances.

4X4 or light-truck tires tend to have stiff sidewalls suited for carrying heavy loads. They also tend NOT to be made with sticky compounds, so their handling and ride performance is... truck-like. They are also not high-speed-rated. I suspect your local yearly registration inspectors will reject them for use on a high-speed sports-GT, but it's been many years since I visited France so things may have changed.
quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:
And they could be 2017 Smiler

I do not know, but I do not think that the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KD existed 20 years ago and this saler is in the US, it is easier for you to ask about than for me.


I'll inquire if you want to know but the listed price is suspect. As far as I know the 15 inch Comp T/A's were discontinued 20 years ago.

These could be left overs someone found in the back of the warehouse?
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by René #4406:
And they could be 2017 Smiler

I do not know, but I do not think that the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KD existed 20 years ago and this saler is in the US, it is easier for you to ask about than for me.


I'll inquire if you want to know but the listed price is suspect. As far as I know the 15 inch Comp T/A's were discontinued 20 years ago.

These could be left overs someone found in the back of the warehouse?


Yes, it is possible.
OK. Tried the contact "phone numbers". First off, there is no such combination of phone numbers in the US.

Secondly, the street address doesn't exist or isn't indentified to anything like Prof-tire.

Thirdly, tires isn't spelled tyres in the US. That is a UK spelling.

So take your pick of what the issue is. Most likely this is a VERY old link that came up on the Internet but the inconsistencies associated with it tend to suggest that it is a scam listing.

True, the link comes up as working on the 'net, but it looks like a wild goose chase?

That's all that I can come up with. It looks like a 20 or 30 year old listing according to the price and those tires haven't been available in 15 inch diameters in about that long of a period of time.
quote:
Originally posted by jimmym:
Dougal, I noticed that you posted again about the 79-84 cars that used these tires, however the production number is very misleading. As George, myself, and David tried to explain, there is a much greater number of cars that have or had the 15x10’s mounted.

The 15x10” wheels are currently being offered by Mrfiat.

The 285’s will fit on any narrow body Pantera using any rim that is between 15x8 to 15x10 as stated in Pirelli’s P7 tire brochure.


Hi

Yep i get it.

the 285/40R15 P7 is in the pipe line and will be happening reasonably soon as will the rear.

And as i understand there is what sounds like a good demand for a 285/50R15 as well i shall look into getting them made. It would help if they fitted another car as well. The 285/40R15 is also going to sell to Porsche guys as well which helps make it viable.
205/70R15 is 26.3 inches diameter.
215/65R15 is 26.0 inches diameter
235/60R15 is 26.1 inches diameter.
F60-15 is 26.1 inches diameter.
255/55R15 is 26.04 inches diameter.
285/50R15 is 26.2 inches diameter.

Size My Tires/Compatible Vehicles

According to the link above 235/60R15 size tires are OEM for Camaro/Firebird, DeLorean, Jaguar XJS, and Lotus Esprit. Plus the F60-15 size tire was a very common tire on 1969 and later American muscle cars, such as Mustang. Nothing comes-up for 285/50R15 however.
The Mickey Thompson 26-12-15, fits into that chart as a 305-48.8-15. I like that fit better.

They are an H which is good for 130mph.

Before V's were available we were running BFG's (S @ 112mph) on high speed track days. I NEVER saw one fail AND in the '70s, people were using them for race wets.

I've seen the Autobahn. If you guys can drive 200mph on that thing then you can do it on our bobsled runs here. Panteras get just a little unstable somewhere over 150-155. They only do 200 in video games.

That's all social status stuff. I don't play that game. Don't get your Gucci loafers scuffed. I wear beat up sneakers and torn jeans.
Here is a picture of a '74. I don't know who's car this is.
It has the 15x10" rear Campis and what looks like the 305-50-15 BFG Euro t/a's on it.
The Mickey Thompson's are the same size and will fit like this also. Just a different tire tread and an H-130mph speed rating.

Attachments

Photos (1)
yes. and it is all good news. They are on the shelf ready for despatch.

Follow these links and you can buy them on line.

285/40R15 P7 https://www.longstonetyres.co....li-cinturato-p7.html

&

345/35R15 P7 https://www.longstonetyres.co....to-p7/category/2606/

And in the States

285 = https://www.lucasclassictires....RATO-P7-2854015p.htm

&

345 = https://www.lucasclassictires....RATO-P7-3453515P.htm

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