Mr. Doug we ain't trying to get your goat. We is just bench racing. None of us can actually afford these things, we are just lusting after them. We bench race because we are too poor to do the real thing.
At least speaking for myself, I am just a lot of hot air, who is just greatfull he was able to cough up enough dogh to get a Pantera in the first place.
Guys,
those 351C IDF kits are using the Redline manifold, the one I earlier explained I had already owned & sold because it sat the IDF carbs too high for my tastes.
I looked into the situation a few years back, the Redline manifold is the ONLY Weber manifold available new at this time that matches the IDF carb to a Cleveland motor.
It believe it to be the only manifold available NEW that matches any Weber carb to the 351C. I believe Inglese refurbishes used Hall manifolds for their Cleveland applications.
I purchased the Redline manifold new from Hardiman in Oz, later sold it at 1/2 price to a fellow Pantera owner. The manifold has a 2V size port, but there is enough excess material around each port to allow it to seal up against a 4V port.
Like I wrote, I'm in the market for the Cain manifold, or the manifold Kjell Iseborn is running. I want to keep everything under the engine screen.
Below is a few more pics of the Redline manifold. I no longer own this manifold, so please don't ask if its for sale.
Doug you're wrong about the spacers, but I won't shoot you. lol..........
George
those 351C IDF kits are using the Redline manifold, the one I earlier explained I had already owned & sold because it sat the IDF carbs too high for my tastes.
I looked into the situation a few years back, the Redline manifold is the ONLY Weber manifold available new at this time that matches the IDF carb to a Cleveland motor.
It believe it to be the only manifold available NEW that matches any Weber carb to the 351C. I believe Inglese refurbishes used Hall manifolds for their Cleveland applications.
I purchased the Redline manifold new from Hardiman in Oz, later sold it at 1/2 price to a fellow Pantera owner. The manifold has a 2V size port, but there is enough excess material around each port to allow it to seal up against a 4V port.
Like I wrote, I'm in the market for the Cain manifold, or the manifold Kjell Iseborn is running. I want to keep everything under the engine screen.
Below is a few more pics of the Redline manifold. I no longer own this manifold, so please don't ask if its for sale.
Doug you're wrong about the spacers, but I won't shoot you. lol..........
George
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George - Kelly Coffield is casting is IR runner manifolds that fir under the deck. Might you consider one of those?
I have a deposit on one for my 9.5 deck Clevor, but I think he can make one for 9.2 deck heights as well.
The whole thing including air filters will fit under the engine screen.
I have a deposit on one for my 9.5 deck Clevor, but I think he can make one for 9.2 deck heights as well.
The whole thing including air filters will fit under the engine screen.
Chris, as far as I know, Kelly's stuff has all been designed for the 48 IDA. I have no interest in running the IDA carbs, or IR fuel injection. (I don't sleep on a bed of nails either! lol....)
Kelly reads the BB, if I'm wrong Kelly, let me know.
George
Kelly reads the BB, if I'm wrong Kelly, let me know.
George
GEORGE,
" I believe Inglese refurbishes used Hall manifolds for their Cleveland applications." Exactly right George !
I pinpointed it today that is exactly what I have..a Hall manifold with Inglese 48IDA's how do I know that...the venturi's, jets ET's have the part #'s grinded off ... you know that old school philosphy of keeping your job / customers .... and my set up has spacers on one side and reverse spacers on the other which, was only mentioned .. I guess it positions the throttle valves to the inside allowing the fuel/air flow smoother .. OK I'm holding back saying this but......here goes !!!!! and stops the flat spot.... OOOOOOOOOOOWWW I did it. dont shoot me its what they told me. Personally I like the flat spot I really doooooooo !! LOL
No really and the carbs being reversed on one side also has a unique linkage where the linkage is pulling to the driver side both together and not oposite like Hall set up. Also the fuel distribution is on the outside.
Who knows all in theory .... I listen and learn. Inglese is what I think the closest professional I can go to for parts. Saturday I have an appointment to discuss this situation. So maybe here we all live and learn.
" I believe Inglese refurbishes used Hall manifolds for their Cleveland applications." Exactly right George !
I pinpointed it today that is exactly what I have..a Hall manifold with Inglese 48IDA's how do I know that...the venturi's, jets ET's have the part #'s grinded off ... you know that old school philosphy of keeping your job / customers .... and my set up has spacers on one side and reverse spacers on the other which, was only mentioned .. I guess it positions the throttle valves to the inside allowing the fuel/air flow smoother .. OK I'm holding back saying this but......here goes !!!!! and stops the flat spot.... OOOOOOOOOOOWWW I did it. dont shoot me its what they told me. Personally I like the flat spot I really doooooooo !! LOL
No really and the carbs being reversed on one side also has a unique linkage where the linkage is pulling to the driver side both together and not oposite like Hall set up. Also the fuel distribution is on the outside.
Who knows all in theory .... I listen and learn. Inglese is what I think the closest professional I can go to for parts. Saturday I have an appointment to discuss this situation. So maybe here we all live and learn.
You need to remember that you need space over the top of these carbs to make them work. I have run shortened IDA's and they ran fine that way. They were shortened to get space above them. Just like on the Cobra Daytonna Coupes. I don't know if you actually can fit an IDF under the rear deck without shortening it. I thought about that with the IDA's but I didn't think that there would be enough room under the deck on the last two stacks.
That short Australian manifold might make that possible on the Pantera. If you find one, don't think it'll be cheap. The Falconer-Dunn manifold is pretty low. It's the one they said they never made. I never seen one of those for sale.
The 427 Fords have an IDA intake which has the carb bases angle milled 10 degrees so that the two banks tilt towards the center. You can conceivably do that on a C. That could give you just enough room on the back two stacks, maybe. You might have more room on a W. Even though they are 9.5 blocks, the carb pads are lower then Halls, a lot lower.
You do realize the one of the benefits to the IDA's is that they are ram tubes as well?
The runners on the Hall manifold I have flow 380 cfm each.
Are you saying that you can't get a Hall manifold any more?
DeTom, do you think you guys could actually piss me off? Who's playing with who? Grasshopper!
Redline is listing the same part number for the 302-351 there George. I don't beleive anyones going to tool up to sell 100 manifolds but lets not be logical about this. All of these head companies tooled up Cleveland heads to sell what, 50 sets? Nobody plays with Clevelands anymore and if they do, they won't pay. They are too cheap. Who's going to pay $2500 for a set of Brodix bare heads? That's aftermarket. Aftermarket is crap. You have to give away factory performance parts and then the guy bitches about IT'S DIRTY. The last set of A3 heads went for $1500 WITH A MANIFOLD on ebay. Common, who's going to race a Pantera? It only gets 10mpg on the street, and you gotta use hightest!
That short Australian manifold might make that possible on the Pantera. If you find one, don't think it'll be cheap. The Falconer-Dunn manifold is pretty low. It's the one they said they never made. I never seen one of those for sale.
The 427 Fords have an IDA intake which has the carb bases angle milled 10 degrees so that the two banks tilt towards the center. You can conceivably do that on a C. That could give you just enough room on the back two stacks, maybe. You might have more room on a W. Even though they are 9.5 blocks, the carb pads are lower then Halls, a lot lower.
You do realize the one of the benefits to the IDA's is that they are ram tubes as well?
The runners on the Hall manifold I have flow 380 cfm each.
Are you saying that you can't get a Hall manifold any more?
DeTom, do you think you guys could actually piss me off? Who's playing with who? Grasshopper!
Redline is listing the same part number for the 302-351 there George. I don't beleive anyones going to tool up to sell 100 manifolds but lets not be logical about this. All of these head companies tooled up Cleveland heads to sell what, 50 sets? Nobody plays with Clevelands anymore and if they do, they won't pay. They are too cheap. Who's going to pay $2500 for a set of Brodix bare heads? That's aftermarket. Aftermarket is crap. You have to give away factory performance parts and then the guy bitches about IT'S DIRTY. The last set of A3 heads went for $1500 WITH A MANIFOLD on ebay. Common, who's going to race a Pantera? It only gets 10mpg on the street, and you gotta use hightest!
Doug, I tried keeping up with you on that one & ran out of breath! lol......
Kava-kava time?
Your friend on the DTBB, George
Kava-kava time?
Your friend on the DTBB, George
I was just showing DeTom how it's done, Ahh, Kava-kava is good.
Kave-kave?? Fruit????
AC, may I call you AC? The spacers are to keep the carbs all facing the same way. It makes the throttle linkage easier to make work correctly.
I added those to my first set. My current set doesn't have those.
My first set wasn't on the Pantera so the linkage worked differently and tended to twist. It couldn't use the center pivot. The reversal kit is Inglese's. For ultimate performance it puts one bank of carbs idle tip in on the wrong side of the port runner.
The center pivot and the Hall set up are the way to go on thePantera I think.
Get youself a set of numered drills. They will help you identify the jets. You will need a metric to English conversion chart also.
You may as well get yourself one of those partitioned boxes so that you can keep the jets sorted.
When Inglese actually owned the business in the early 80's he crried around a box that when you opened it looked like Yankee Stadium. He liked to "impress" people. You won't need anything that large.
I added those to my first set. My current set doesn't have those.
My first set wasn't on the Pantera so the linkage worked differently and tended to twist. It couldn't use the center pivot. The reversal kit is Inglese's. For ultimate performance it puts one bank of carbs idle tip in on the wrong side of the port runner.
The center pivot and the Hall set up are the way to go on thePantera I think.
Get youself a set of numered drills. They will help you identify the jets. You will need a metric to English conversion chart also.
You may as well get yourself one of those partitioned boxes so that you can keep the jets sorted.
When Inglese actually owned the business in the early 80's he crried around a box that when you opened it looked like Yankee Stadium. He liked to "impress" people. You won't need anything that large.
PD - Your right I was mistaken..... mine are both facing the same way with one of the fuel lines in the center.... The manifold puts the opposite which is for better perfromance and not to facilitate the linkage. The spacers on mine are coming off and the center PANTERA linkage will be added. The Hall linkage they say makes it so the stock cable can be used.
I hear you on the jets... I will thanks for the advise... I learned with the race cars... I bought a big HOLLEY kit and used maybe 10% of it... I was thinking to get my baseline lets say starting point then buy a few different items up and down on the scale.
Yes I heard he was a unique individual.
I hear you on the jets... I will thanks for the advise... I learned with the race cars... I bought a big HOLLEY kit and used maybe 10% of it... I was thinking to get my baseline lets say starting point then buy a few different items up and down on the scale.
Yes I heard he was a unique individual.
As far as needing more jetting, that's up to you. I will tell you that the engine will continue to respond powerwise to larger and large mains.
I have tested them all the way up to 195 mains.
I ran out of air corrector sizes at that point. I went no further.
What you will notice as you go larger is that the engine will smoke more and more as you get larger.
I have a set of 170 mains that you can't run in the garage.
I would predict that you will settle on the 140's.
Accellerator jets also can be closed down quite a bit without effecting performance. I had them down to .40. This would reduce the amount of cylinder washing and would reduce the black cloud you get when you nail the throttle.
The problem is it makes it very difficult to start the car cold. That made it easy to foul the plugs starting up from flooding the engine by over pumping. I know that sound contradictory but it isn't if you think about it.
Also, don't look down the stacks when you are cranking the engine unless you like to look surprized. Did you ever notice how when someone has no eyebrows they look surprized?
Start the car at night if you like a light show. My kids used to charge thier friends a quarter to watch me start the car at night. It looks like you are firing up a nitro car.
I have tested them all the way up to 195 mains.
I ran out of air corrector sizes at that point. I went no further.
What you will notice as you go larger is that the engine will smoke more and more as you get larger.
I have a set of 170 mains that you can't run in the garage.
I would predict that you will settle on the 140's.
Accellerator jets also can be closed down quite a bit without effecting performance. I had them down to .40. This would reduce the amount of cylinder washing and would reduce the black cloud you get when you nail the throttle.
The problem is it makes it very difficult to start the car cold. That made it easy to foul the plugs starting up from flooding the engine by over pumping. I know that sound contradictory but it isn't if you think about it.
Also, don't look down the stacks when you are cranking the engine unless you like to look surprized. Did you ever notice how when someone has no eyebrows they look surprized?
Start the car at night if you like a light show. My kids used to charge thier friends a quarter to watch me start the car at night. It looks like you are firing up a nitro car.
SWEEEEEET,
But, I already got one o' them notched/cut out decklids, need somethin' to fill the void.
Best so far is a 2" carb spacer block and one o them 4" tall K&N chrome oval air filters. But it kills all rear vision and ain't nowhere near as nice lookin' or soundin' as Webers.
But, I already got one o' them notched/cut out decklids, need somethin' to fill the void.
Best so far is a 2" carb spacer block and one o them 4" tall K&N chrome oval air filters. But it kills all rear vision and ain't nowhere near as nice lookin' or soundin' as Webers.
Oh, the notched deck lid sounds nice, any one willing to part with one. I would rather not cut mine, I was thinking a fiberglass one or one already cut.
Ron
Ron
I think that few used rear decks are going to be perfect. All of them have type of problem.
I think that can cut out for the Webers and save the pieces so they can be put back in the future.
If you could find a cut lid locally and go an pick it up that would make sense. If you have to buy one and have it shipped to you that's an entire different thing.
There was (is) a Pantera racer near here in CT that made a fiberglass rear deck. It was a while ago but I seem to remember that he would sell me one for around $800. I never did see the quality of the piece or make the deal. It isn't that easy to make just a couple of high quality fiberglass items. They are often porous, fragile and warp easy.
The guy might even be a member. I'll try to remember his name. I can picture his face, so that means there is hope.
I used the proper saber saw blade, cut it out neatly and saved the piece. I know that I can reattach the piece if I need to.
I suspect that if I need to sell the Pantera in the future that the Webers will be a selling point to the car. I don't seriously believe that anyone would be looking at the practicality of the car with or without Webers.
Why don't you guys place a wanted ad on PI.
Also try Crayon47 on ebay. It appears that he is parting out more then one Pantera. He is in RI.
I think that can cut out for the Webers and save the pieces so they can be put back in the future.
If you could find a cut lid locally and go an pick it up that would make sense. If you have to buy one and have it shipped to you that's an entire different thing.
There was (is) a Pantera racer near here in CT that made a fiberglass rear deck. It was a while ago but I seem to remember that he would sell me one for around $800. I never did see the quality of the piece or make the deal. It isn't that easy to make just a couple of high quality fiberglass items. They are often porous, fragile and warp easy.
The guy might even be a member. I'll try to remember his name. I can picture his face, so that means there is hope.
I used the proper saber saw blade, cut it out neatly and saved the piece. I know that I can reattach the piece if I need to.
I suspect that if I need to sell the Pantera in the future that the Webers will be a selling point to the car. I don't seriously believe that anyone would be looking at the practicality of the car with or without Webers.
Why don't you guys place a wanted ad on PI.
Also try Crayon47 on ebay. It appears that he is parting out more then one Pantera. He is in RI.
Doug,
Was away fr a few days ..I was up to my arm pits working on baby P.... stripped down the webers and they are basically exactly how they come from the factory specs. I wrote it down but the paper is out in the barn. have the manifold and body of carbs going to glass bead them and high temp clear them. then gasket kith new specs... oh yea where did we leave off with that....what was the recommended starting point. Should I go back to COMP CAMS and ask them about specs on a weber cam. i called inglese but not crazy about them. sorry smack me if you want but i~m a little confused putting numbers with the names of these 7 parts that are completely adjustable. But i~ll get it and when i do .....LOL
Was away fr a few days ..I was up to my arm pits working on baby P.... stripped down the webers and they are basically exactly how they come from the factory specs. I wrote it down but the paper is out in the barn. have the manifold and body of carbs going to glass bead them and high temp clear them. then gasket kith new specs... oh yea where did we leave off with that....what was the recommended starting point. Should I go back to COMP CAMS and ask them about specs on a weber cam. i called inglese but not crazy about them. sorry smack me if you want but i~m a little confused putting numbers with the names of these 7 parts that are completely adjustable. But i~ll get it and when i do .....LOL
Virtually everything is changeable in the carbs.
If they are stock they should be: chokes 37mm (aka auxilliary venturi), idle jet 70F10 (idle jet holder-there's only one and you got it), main fuel is probably 1.25mm (we call it a 125), air corrector is probalby 1.35, emullsion tube is a F11, pump jet is a .50.
What I recommend you get is the following; leave the chokes alome, leave them at 37mm; get 1.40 fuel jets, 1.60 air correctors, F5 tubes, .80 or even 1.0 pump jets, high pressure fuel inlet valves, asbestos heat insulating base gaskets.
How old are the carbs? Webers aren't like Holleys. They virtually have no gaskets to speak of to leak. The main gasket is paper but rarely needs to be replaced. There are ball bearings on the throttle shafts that have a leather seal on them. If the carbs are not new then you need to remove the shaft nylock nuts, carefully remove the slat washers (use a dental pick), even move carefully peel back the leather seals but don't remove them. Load your little grease gun up and use the needle tip and pack the bearing with grease. Make sure that the throttle shafts work free and easy and snap closed.verify at this point that they open completely, 90 with no binding. I have seen more then a few IDA's with twisted throttle shafts. It's best to find out now if you have one. Put the flat washers back on and snug the nuts on gentally.
Theere is a guy on ebay that I get my jets and emulsion tubes from.
He is in Italy and go by the name of Alfaparts. Do an ebay advanced search for sellers using that name and you will find him. His name is Garielle (like the Angel). He doesn't deal in IDA parts specifically, they are DCOE parts.
He sells the jets for $2.50 each instead of $5 each like here. I think I paid $20 for the set of 8 F5 emulsion tubes. Treat him politely he is a gentlemen.
Chokes are harder to come buy. The only other size you may want to try are 42mm on the street. Of course if you want to seriously go racing 44 or 45mm are what you want. You won't be happy on the street with those.
You can get the gaskets from a vendor on www.the samba.com. It is a VW website. I don't rember his name at the momemt, but he is a California type surfer dude. The are called "glass ball" inlet valves. They are like $30 or $40 for the set.
You really don't need the "rebuild kits" for the carbs. Only buy one at a time as you need them.
If they are stock they should be: chokes 37mm (aka auxilliary venturi), idle jet 70F10 (idle jet holder-there's only one and you got it), main fuel is probably 1.25mm (we call it a 125), air corrector is probalby 1.35, emullsion tube is a F11, pump jet is a .50.
What I recommend you get is the following; leave the chokes alome, leave them at 37mm; get 1.40 fuel jets, 1.60 air correctors, F5 tubes, .80 or even 1.0 pump jets, high pressure fuel inlet valves, asbestos heat insulating base gaskets.
How old are the carbs? Webers aren't like Holleys. They virtually have no gaskets to speak of to leak. The main gasket is paper but rarely needs to be replaced. There are ball bearings on the throttle shafts that have a leather seal on them. If the carbs are not new then you need to remove the shaft nylock nuts, carefully remove the slat washers (use a dental pick), even move carefully peel back the leather seals but don't remove them. Load your little grease gun up and use the needle tip and pack the bearing with grease. Make sure that the throttle shafts work free and easy and snap closed.verify at this point that they open completely, 90 with no binding. I have seen more then a few IDA's with twisted throttle shafts. It's best to find out now if you have one. Put the flat washers back on and snug the nuts on gentally.
Theere is a guy on ebay that I get my jets and emulsion tubes from.
He is in Italy and go by the name of Alfaparts. Do an ebay advanced search for sellers using that name and you will find him. His name is Garielle (like the Angel). He doesn't deal in IDA parts specifically, they are DCOE parts.
He sells the jets for $2.50 each instead of $5 each like here. I think I paid $20 for the set of 8 F5 emulsion tubes. Treat him politely he is a gentlemen.
Chokes are harder to come buy. The only other size you may want to try are 42mm on the street. Of course if you want to seriously go racing 44 or 45mm are what you want. You won't be happy on the street with those.
You can get the gaskets from a vendor on www.the samba.com. It is a VW website. I don't rember his name at the momemt, but he is a California type surfer dude. The are called "glass ball" inlet valves. They are like $30 or $40 for the set.
You really don't need the "rebuild kits" for the carbs. Only buy one at a time as you need them.
Oh, forgot the cam. I doubt that any cam tech guy knows what a Weber cam is. Specifically you are looking for something with around a 246 to 251 duration at .050 with an overlap of roughly 28 to 40 degrees. Lift is the least important factor with a big valve Cleveland. Duration is more important. You don't need to be crazy. A solid lifter cam in the .525 to .550 range is plenty. Anthing more then that I think you are just beating up you valve train for little gain.
You are going to play with everything "a little", i.e., advance, idle screws, linkage, etc, but you are looking at an engine that idles well at 1,000 rpms and is very responsive off of idle. It's the "playing with it" where guys loose patience with it. Yes they change with the weather and yes sometimes it is tough to tell if that's all there is.
This is not a casual set up for people who want to look cool. This is very serious performance stuff run by the some of the best race teams there ever were.
You are going to play with everything "a little", i.e., advance, idle screws, linkage, etc, but you are looking at an engine that idles well at 1,000 rpms and is very responsive off of idle. It's the "playing with it" where guys loose patience with it. Yes they change with the weather and yes sometimes it is tough to tell if that's all there is.
This is not a casual set up for people who want to look cool. This is very serious performance stuff run by the some of the best race teams there ever were.
PD,
correct me if I am wrong, but don't you want to keep the rpm down as low as possible, like mine when the Idle was set at 1000 rpm, it was loading up at idle do to starting to enter the transition holes. when I got the idle down it clear it up.
What do you think.
Dennis
correct me if I am wrong, but don't you want to keep the rpm down as low as possible, like mine when the Idle was set at 1000 rpm, it was loading up at idle do to starting to enter the transition holes. when I got the idle down it clear it up.
What do you think.
Dennis
When you set the carb up on the bench, not on the car, you set the carb throttle plate on the transition slot. It really won't close anymore anyway.
You put them together and then sync the carbs running.
When you get any slack out of the linkage I find that on pump gas they want to idle in the 950 to 1000 rpm area.
People like Inglese will tell you to set the idle screws at 3/4 turn. I find that makes them load up just a little at idle. I try to get them as close to 1/2 turn as I can. They usually, for me wind up at about 5/8 turn. I'm sure that there are production tolerences on all of the IDA's. You will notice that the Unisync can show you two different vacuums on the same carb. You use the throat closest to the "mating linkage".
I run a vacuum advance on the distributor.
This all puts me at 1100 with vacuum idle.
Since all the linkage is "zeroed-in" I turn the distributor down a little to bring the idle rpm down.
I'm not saying that this is the only combination but it works for me with good tip in, reasonable idle, and good top end.
I personally think that the idle jet it "needs" is in between a 65 and a 70.
If you are running high compression, over 10.5:1, if you put in a tank of leaded racing gas, it will idle down a lot.
This is the entire issue with Webers of being "too variable". Everything effects them. In this sense you must consider them a "racing set-up" and be the Chief Mechanic and determine that today, this is the best they are going to run and leave it at that.
I used to have a picture of Jim Inglese hanging on the garage wall. Beneath that picture was a pile of fouled spark plugs. As I would pull the plugs out of the engine I would throw them at the picture and let them pile up. It was better then just drawing Devils horns, and blacking out his teeth, etc.
This was my form of Weber therapy. Now I have some kava-kava, but sometimes I throw darts at the target.
You put them together and then sync the carbs running.
When you get any slack out of the linkage I find that on pump gas they want to idle in the 950 to 1000 rpm area.
People like Inglese will tell you to set the idle screws at 3/4 turn. I find that makes them load up just a little at idle. I try to get them as close to 1/2 turn as I can. They usually, for me wind up at about 5/8 turn. I'm sure that there are production tolerences on all of the IDA's. You will notice that the Unisync can show you two different vacuums on the same carb. You use the throat closest to the "mating linkage".
I run a vacuum advance on the distributor.
This all puts me at 1100 with vacuum idle.
Since all the linkage is "zeroed-in" I turn the distributor down a little to bring the idle rpm down.
I'm not saying that this is the only combination but it works for me with good tip in, reasonable idle, and good top end.
I personally think that the idle jet it "needs" is in between a 65 and a 70.
If you are running high compression, over 10.5:1, if you put in a tank of leaded racing gas, it will idle down a lot.
This is the entire issue with Webers of being "too variable". Everything effects them. In this sense you must consider them a "racing set-up" and be the Chief Mechanic and determine that today, this is the best they are going to run and leave it at that.
I used to have a picture of Jim Inglese hanging on the garage wall. Beneath that picture was a pile of fouled spark plugs. As I would pull the plugs out of the engine I would throw them at the picture and let them pile up. It was better then just drawing Devils horns, and blacking out his teeth, etc.
This was my form of Weber therapy. Now I have some kava-kava, but sometimes I throw darts at the target.
Pd,
That is what I found I have used both 65 and 70 and right now I have the 65 in. I have it idling at about 750 rpm running good, I have 11:1 aditive and av gas. hehe I am HAPPY
Dennis
That is what I found I have used both 65 and 70 and right now I have the 65 in. I have it idling at about 750 rpm running good, I have 11:1 aditive and av gas. hehe I am HAPPY
Dennis
Sounds good. 750 is pretty hard for me to get on just pump gas. What pump jets did you use?
Panteradoug,
Thanks Soo much ..
I'm digesting this just gotta get all my papers together and put name to the real life parts then I will talk and understand, have not had enough time during the week to play with the car. I'm in the HEating business and this is my season to be jolly LOL.
Thanks Soo much ..
I'm digesting this just gotta get all my papers together and put name to the real life parts then I will talk and understand, have not had enough time during the week to play with the car. I'm in the HEating business and this is my season to be jolly LOL.
I'm an out of work lumberjack. I used to work in the Sahara Forest. I get a lot of free time this time of the year. I bought the Pantera 'cause I thought it would make a great little pick-up truck with it's rear deck and all.
Alfa1750 (on ebay)is David Gabrielle, the Italian Weber parts connection.
A Lumber Jack ??? LOL Where did ya learn webers on a Italian wood chipper ?? Like the one in Saprano's ?? LOL Yea I can see you staking wood on the deck lid.
Thanks for the tips... I'll check it out. I found 4 gasket kits for 10.00 each in argentina. it cant hurt to have alt sources.
Ron
Thanks for the tips... I'll check it out. I found 4 gasket kits for 10.00 each in argentina. it cant hurt to have alt sources.
Ron
Well I used to be able to stack wood there. I can't now because of the flames from the Webers.
Oh yeh, I forgot to tell you about Argentina, sorry.
Oh yeh, I forgot to tell you about Argentina, sorry.
PD what is the rpefered material for the thick spacers , seems they come in 4mm not sure of the material just yet. saturday I glass beed the carbs and intake. never got done last weekend, I went crazy with the wire wheel in the engine compartement and under the car.
The 351c I just had freshened up ( I did it becuase the oil pump jambed last year and broke the distr gear and damaged the cam, so I had a local engine builder do the heads and cam bearings. I put a new cam and lifters, HV oil pump with hP spring new oil pump shaft, HV oil pan. timing DR timing gears, alum water pump, Detomaso valve covers, this motor was just done out in Calif, before I bought the car. It had FT pistins with OC 4V heads. No ridge on the cylinder walls. My plan is freshen this up and keep the original motor and build another one. If I dont blow this to china the summer.) I have two new SVO blocks R302 & G351 and not sure what I want to build.
Oh back to the subject the cam that was put back in the motor was an exact replacement of what was taken out. I did this becuase they matched the springs. It was a mild hydralic cam. I think this was a HALL PANTERA replacement motor.
OK OK it takes me a little time to explain !!
COMP CAM FC-268H-10 Pt# 32-221-3 Hydralic
Gross lift 494
Duration @ .006 lift 268
Valve Timing @ .006 int 28 BTDC 60 ABDC
ext 68 BBDC 20 ATDC
These specs are for cam installed @ 106 intake Center line
Duration @.050 Int 219 exh 219
Lode Lift .286 .286
Lobe separation 110
Its not wild at all, the heads are on but I could pull them back off if you think a solid lifter cam is in line here. I would have to get the machine work done for crew in studs.
The reason I went this route is I'm determined to drive this car in the spring.
Ron
The 351c I just had freshened up ( I did it becuase the oil pump jambed last year and broke the distr gear and damaged the cam, so I had a local engine builder do the heads and cam bearings. I put a new cam and lifters, HV oil pump with hP spring new oil pump shaft, HV oil pan. timing DR timing gears, alum water pump, Detomaso valve covers, this motor was just done out in Calif, before I bought the car. It had FT pistins with OC 4V heads. No ridge on the cylinder walls. My plan is freshen this up and keep the original motor and build another one. If I dont blow this to china the summer.) I have two new SVO blocks R302 & G351 and not sure what I want to build.
Oh back to the subject the cam that was put back in the motor was an exact replacement of what was taken out. I did this becuase they matched the springs. It was a mild hydralic cam. I think this was a HALL PANTERA replacement motor.
OK OK it takes me a little time to explain !!
COMP CAM FC-268H-10 Pt# 32-221-3 Hydralic
Gross lift 494
Duration @ .006 lift 268
Valve Timing @ .006 int 28 BTDC 60 ABDC
ext 68 BBDC 20 ATDC
These specs are for cam installed @ 106 intake Center line
Duration @.050 Int 219 exh 219
Lode Lift .286 .286
Lobe separation 110
Its not wild at all, the heads are on but I could pull them back off if you think a solid lifter cam is in line here. I would have to get the machine work done for crew in studs.
The reason I went this route is I'm determined to drive this car in the spring.
Ron
I believe that the gaskets are an asbestos "alloy".
They are hinda hard but they have some crushabilaty to them. They aren't quite 1/4" thick, maybe 3/16".
The Webers will work with just about anything, or can be made to.
I didm't mean to be preaching to anyone about what a Weber engine should be. There are some pretty hot hydraulic cams. I've run them to 7000 with the proper valve springs. I don't like them because you don't get 100% of the lift you are supposed to because they work on oil pressure.
I understand your indecision on an engine. There are a lot of possibilities out there. For every combination you come up with, there seems to be a better one.
Keep in mind that the most expensive component by far to the drive train is the ZF. I don't pretend to be able to tell you how much power it will take. I do know that Ford ran the ZF behind the 289's in the GT40's. They were around 400hp but not a lot of torque. In 68 it was called a Gulf (after the sponser, Gulf Oil). They ran a Boss 302' at about 425hp but still not a lot of torque.
Ford built it's own transaxle for the GT40 427 Mark II's in '65, and it was a 4 speed using the internal components from the "top loader transmission". Those at most were 500hp, but made aa much torque.
I would think that should tell you something about the ZF's durabilaty or doubtabilaty. In other words, look out for a lotta cubes, you will break it.
A broken ZF is a very expensive proposition.
They are hinda hard but they have some crushabilaty to them. They aren't quite 1/4" thick, maybe 3/16".
The Webers will work with just about anything, or can be made to.
I didm't mean to be preaching to anyone about what a Weber engine should be. There are some pretty hot hydraulic cams. I've run them to 7000 with the proper valve springs. I don't like them because you don't get 100% of the lift you are supposed to because they work on oil pressure.
I understand your indecision on an engine. There are a lot of possibilities out there. For every combination you come up with, there seems to be a better one.
Keep in mind that the most expensive component by far to the drive train is the ZF. I don't pretend to be able to tell you how much power it will take. I do know that Ford ran the ZF behind the 289's in the GT40's. They were around 400hp but not a lot of torque. In 68 it was called a Gulf (after the sponser, Gulf Oil). They ran a Boss 302' at about 425hp but still not a lot of torque.
Ford built it's own transaxle for the GT40 427 Mark II's in '65, and it was a 4 speed using the internal components from the "top loader transmission". Those at most were 500hp, but made aa much torque.
I would think that should tell you something about the ZF's durabilaty or doubtabilaty. In other words, look out for a lotta cubes, you will break it.
A broken ZF is a very expensive proposition.
PD,
I have also run a couple Boss 302 in the past and the rev's of a small block and the wieght savings is where its at in the pantera. I hear ya, I have not had much experience with a blown ZF. Not sure where the ZF's breaking point is and not looking to find out. $$$$$$.
I am leaning towards the R302 siameze block I have but not sure whether I will use AFR heads or Cleveland heads. But definately webers on that also.
So what did you think of the cam ... Inlgese wants 65.00 for consultation. I wasnt sure how to determine the over lap you stated should have been between 30 and 35 ??
Ron
I have also run a couple Boss 302 in the past and the rev's of a small block and the wieght savings is where its at in the pantera. I hear ya, I have not had much experience with a blown ZF. Not sure where the ZF's breaking point is and not looking to find out. $$$$$$.
I am leaning towards the R302 siameze block I have but not sure whether I will use AFR heads or Cleveland heads. But definately webers on that also.
So what did you think of the cam ... Inlgese wants 65.00 for consultation. I wasnt sure how to determine the over lap you stated should have been between 30 and 35 ??
Ron
The overlap on that one is 48. It's ok, it will work. The fuel plume from the intake is basically from running flat out likw on a track like Pocono. When you pull in from a hard run it is possible to have accumulated atomized fuel in the engine compartment ( a fuel fog). I would just recommend that you park it where it doesn't immediately have to be moved. The spark would come from the ignition firing through the carburetor. You are probably more at risk if you run air cleaners and you can't see the build up.
You aren't at great risk with that cam. I'm running a lot more overlap then that at the moment. I don't think I'm going to change mine anytime soon.
Inglese would just recommend thier cam to you. It's by Cam Techneques. I've got the specs some where. It's something like .586 lift, 256 duration and 28 overlap. I didn't especially like it. I didn't think it pulled well at all at high rpm. I didn't like the sound of the exhaust (the frequency) either. It was too low and droned.
The exhaust should have a kind of whine/scream to it (higher pitch). That indicates that you are getting scavenging from the exhaust. Especially with the 180 bundle of snakes headers. The cam creates that.
There is probably already a good profile in the Crane Cams archives.
I personally am not to concerned with a cam change at the moment. Mine is at 72 overlap with 246 duration and .520 lift solid now.
I ran this set up before with the Iron heads before I "knew better" with no problems with no screens or air cleaners.
It made the stacks whistle from a distance. The whistle was lounder then the exhaust.
Run what you have.
Also, don't try to install the engine into the Pantera with the induction on. Put the engine in then drop the induction in.
Have fun.
You aren't at great risk with that cam. I'm running a lot more overlap then that at the moment. I don't think I'm going to change mine anytime soon.
Inglese would just recommend thier cam to you. It's by Cam Techneques. I've got the specs some where. It's something like .586 lift, 256 duration and 28 overlap. I didn't especially like it. I didn't think it pulled well at all at high rpm. I didn't like the sound of the exhaust (the frequency) either. It was too low and droned.
The exhaust should have a kind of whine/scream to it (higher pitch). That indicates that you are getting scavenging from the exhaust. Especially with the 180 bundle of snakes headers. The cam creates that.
There is probably already a good profile in the Crane Cams archives.
I personally am not to concerned with a cam change at the moment. Mine is at 72 overlap with 246 duration and .520 lift solid now.
I ran this set up before with the Iron heads before I "knew better" with no problems with no screens or air cleaners.
It made the stacks whistle from a distance. The whistle was lounder then the exhaust.
Run what you have.
Also, don't try to install the engine into the Pantera with the induction on. Put the engine in then drop the induction in.
Have fun.
Panteradoug,
The set I havea brand new, they look like someone couldnt get them to run, they appear they were bolted on out of a box, specs are exactly what the book says they should be, the intake has a slight bit of blakc carbon, almost like they spit up a plume once or twice and someones wife made them rip them off, I dont have to worry I have no wife.LOL The carbs are clean like never used except some dried up gas in the bottom of the fuel bowls.
I dont think its necessary to remove the throttle shafts and throttle valves. I can see as I used to adjust fuel injection, that the valves are all the way closed with the idle screwbacked out all the way. But if I glass bead them I may need to protect the roler bearings. I'm not a big fan of removing throttle shaft screws. I have found them a couple time stuck in the top of pistons on motor I have bought. Luckily these are new and dont need to be removed.
Yes got the thick gaskets from the UK and the gaskets from Alfa Argentina and talking with Garille. All this stuff is a couple bucks there ...inglese was talking 75.00 per carb for gaskets.. what are they smoking.
" high pressure fuel inlet valves. The are called "glass ball" inlet valves. They are like $30 or $40 for the set." Here is where you keep losing me ????? not sure where or what these are ???
Ok I know this is a performance set up and a racing set up... my motor is mild FOR NOW ! But there has to be a place for these Webers. I have to be able to get this mild motor to run at its peak with out blowing it up. Over reving it is whats going to put it in the grave..or some thing stupid like a broken valve or spring or some thing like that. But in the mean time .. I think I can play with this and get experience before I put the new motor in.
A little scared of this PLUME talk not sure I understand what is happenuing witht hat.
Ron
The set I havea brand new, they look like someone couldnt get them to run, they appear they were bolted on out of a box, specs are exactly what the book says they should be, the intake has a slight bit of blakc carbon, almost like they spit up a plume once or twice and someones wife made them rip them off, I dont have to worry I have no wife.LOL The carbs are clean like never used except some dried up gas in the bottom of the fuel bowls.
I dont think its necessary to remove the throttle shafts and throttle valves. I can see as I used to adjust fuel injection, that the valves are all the way closed with the idle screwbacked out all the way. But if I glass bead them I may need to protect the roler bearings. I'm not a big fan of removing throttle shaft screws. I have found them a couple time stuck in the top of pistons on motor I have bought. Luckily these are new and dont need to be removed.
Yes got the thick gaskets from the UK and the gaskets from Alfa Argentina and talking with Garille. All this stuff is a couple bucks there ...inglese was talking 75.00 per carb for gaskets.. what are they smoking.
" high pressure fuel inlet valves. The are called "glass ball" inlet valves. They are like $30 or $40 for the set." Here is where you keep losing me ????? not sure where or what these are ???
Ok I know this is a performance set up and a racing set up... my motor is mild FOR NOW ! But there has to be a place for these Webers. I have to be able to get this mild motor to run at its peak with out blowing it up. Over reving it is whats going to put it in the grave..or some thing stupid like a broken valve or spring or some thing like that. But in the mean time .. I think I can play with this and get experience before I put the new motor in.
A little scared of this PLUME talk not sure I understand what is happenuing witht hat.
Ron
Why bead them? Leave them alone. I'll see if I can find the inlet valves for ya'
AC, the Webers won't break the engine, you're the only one that can do that.
AC, the Webers won't break the engine, you're the only one that can do that.
They are 3.3mm glass ball IDA inlet valves. They are $20.28 each, from Gene Berg. !-714-998-7500. They wnt up a little.
Inglese is in business to make money.
Where would you go if I didn't show you the back alleys of Weberville?
He charges for his knowledge.
Inglese is in business to make money.
Where would you go if I didn't show you the back alleys of Weberville?
He charges for his knowledge.
Ah as I said your the best ... LOL
Yea we are all in it for the money...but thats why we are on this site to help each other keep these cars from fading away. And me included...I'm here if you need anything to return the favor. I have a pretty extensive shop, we are an Industrial Mechanical Contractor.
Inlgese well lets not go there.
Ron
Yea we are all in it for the money...but thats why we are on this site to help each other keep these cars from fading away. And me included...I'm here if you need anything to return the favor. I have a pretty extensive shop, we are an Industrial Mechanical Contractor.
Inlgese well lets not go there.
Ron
PD,
I am planning on running the Silver State ORR and the race is run at 5300' and the finish is at 3000' What suggestions would you make for my jetting changes. at least a starting point. I am a rookie with the webers but I am learning.
Thanks for your help
Dennis D
I am planning on running the Silver State ORR and the race is run at 5300' and the finish is at 3000' What suggestions would you make for my jetting changes. at least a starting point. I am a rookie with the webers but I am learning.
Thanks for your help
Dennis D
I don't know on that one. I would think that the proportion of the fuel to air (140/160) would never change. I suspect that you step down the size of the main fuel jet. I wouldn't think that you would ever go smaller then a 125 fuel main.
You may have to bring sizes from 125 up. I wouldn't go over 140 mains.
I don't know if you have to change the emulsion tubes. You may.
I know that the f7s the carbs come stock with is a leaner tube at higher rpm then the f5.
Count on running 65 idles, bring a set of 60's too.
If you have to change the emulsion tubes also, then you are really screwed.
I never ran at high altitude. This is a shot in the dark for me.
You could talk to Larry at Pantera Connection. He runs Webers in his race car and may have run the Silverstate.
If not get there a week early and start testing.
Sorry, this is the best I can do.
You may have to bring sizes from 125 up. I wouldn't go over 140 mains.
I don't know if you have to change the emulsion tubes. You may.
I know that the f7s the carbs come stock with is a leaner tube at higher rpm then the f5.
Count on running 65 idles, bring a set of 60's too.
If you have to change the emulsion tubes also, then you are really screwed.
I never ran at high altitude. This is a shot in the dark for me.
You could talk to Larry at Pantera Connection. He runs Webers in his race car and may have run the Silverstate.
If not get there a week early and start testing.
Sorry, this is the best I can do.
Panteradoug,
Question ? OK just one more please ! LOL
attached I have a pic of a linkage set up. I was windering if you had a pci of yours. I was wondering how to intergrate the stock throttle cable into this set up. I can buy the parts but need some input.
Ron
Question ? OK just one more please ! LOL
attached I have a pic of a linkage set up. I was windering if you had a pci of yours. I was wondering how to intergrate the stock throttle cable into this set up. I can buy the parts but need some input.
Ron
Where's the pic? I'll post my linkage pic in my photos. It will be too large to fit here.