I've moved this topic from the parts for sale forum to the engine forum, it is far too interesting to be lost over in the parts for sale section. I hope this doesn't cause any confusion. keep it up.
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It's funny how the webers appear to come in waves, I know they look awesome, but hear is what I found out about them, They take quite abit of time to dial in and they seem to run differant everyday do to weather condititions,and if you have a new motor I would suggest running a single carb to search out the little bugs and break in. the webers are not something you just bolt on and go, it takes alot of time to get them right for your application, every engine is differant and you need to run them for a period time then make jet changes one at a time. it could run rich or lean at low, medium, high rpm, you have quite a few jets and air jets to consider.
But there is know way anything looks better.
So good luck and happy motoring
Dennis
But there is know way anything looks better.
So good luck and happy motoring
Dennis
Yes to what you said denis. They change with good air and bad air just like a race car does. Jetting on a C is actually very easy. The base line is 140/160 F5. Idles are F.70. I've run with home made .65 idles.
Chokes are about all you need to play with. They come stock with 37mm. Hall only sells them with 32mm. 289 race size is 42mm. I've run as big as 45mm. Mine are 40.5 now but that could change depending on what I'm doing that day.
The Pantera linkage doesn't seem to twist up as bad as other applications but it isn't too unusual to have to re-syn it after running under race conditions for a while. That's not that big a deal.
The problem with the Pantera is how to keep water out of them because they are hagging out on the veranda.
Webers are a way of life.
Chokes are about all you need to play with. They come stock with 37mm. Hall only sells them with 32mm. 289 race size is 42mm. I've run as big as 45mm. Mine are 40.5 now but that could change depending on what I'm doing that day.
The Pantera linkage doesn't seem to twist up as bad as other applications but it isn't too unusual to have to re-syn it after running under race conditions for a while. That's not that big a deal.
The problem with the Pantera is how to keep water out of them because they are hagging out on the veranda.
Webers are a way of life.
My 2 cents !! LOL
I can only say I have tuned them on a friends car many times. They might be a little harder then a 4V carb becaue there are 4 of them instead of 1. Yes the linkage has to be in sinc, but if you ever ran 2 4V's on a V8 these are the same issues. I have them on the 351c they are on the motor let the games begin.
One comment ..... the 4V carb doesnt bolt on out of any box.... the most common mistake ever made with a Holley Carb is its bolted on out of the box.
I think every body should own a Holley carb book. I bought the Weber book and read it. These manuals address many issues besides the induction system.
I can only say I have tuned them on a friends car many times. They might be a little harder then a 4V carb becaue there are 4 of them instead of 1. Yes the linkage has to be in sinc, but if you ever ran 2 4V's on a V8 these are the same issues. I have them on the 351c they are on the motor let the games begin.
One comment ..... the 4V carb doesnt bolt on out of any box.... the most common mistake ever made with a Holley Carb is its bolted on out of the box.
I think every body should own a Holley carb book. I bought the Weber book and read it. These manuals address many issues besides the induction system.
If they are hard to keep tuned they may have the wrong inserts which is common. With correct inserts they should stay reasonably in tune. Like anything else, they have theyer own techniques.
Gary
Gary
Heck why don't you guys just buy the ones that just look like webers but are actually really secret fuel injectors inside?? Then all you gotta do is hook it up to the computer and drive away.
They are more sensative, actually the engine is, because it is an IR and each cylinder has it's own carb. There is no community plenum for them to share and average out the changes.
I always found it interesting that the Holley Carb size chart does not apply to an IR setup. A typical set of 48IDA's is flowing around 2400cfm.
They are also very sensative to reverberation in the manifold. If you are going to seriously try to tune them you should limit the cam overlap to 30 to 35 degrees. In other words a special "weber cam".
Big overlap cams don't work well with them. The overlap on the exhaust actually reverses the flow of the carb and blows it back out of the stack.
Another caution, make sure that you use high pressure fuel inlet valves, low fuel pressure (3psi) and heat isolating gaskets. If you don't when you shut the enging off hot, the fuel will perkulate like in a coffee pot and turn into "old faithful", the geiser.
Want to see your hot engine swimming is gas? It'll take years off of your life.
I'm sure there are a couple of little things I left out but you'll have a wonderful time experiencing the wonderful world of weber on your own. Enjoy!
I always found it interesting that the Holley Carb size chart does not apply to an IR setup. A typical set of 48IDA's is flowing around 2400cfm.
They are also very sensative to reverberation in the manifold. If you are going to seriously try to tune them you should limit the cam overlap to 30 to 35 degrees. In other words a special "weber cam".
Big overlap cams don't work well with them. The overlap on the exhaust actually reverses the flow of the carb and blows it back out of the stack.
Another caution, make sure that you use high pressure fuel inlet valves, low fuel pressure (3psi) and heat isolating gaskets. If you don't when you shut the enging off hot, the fuel will perkulate like in a coffee pot and turn into "old faithful", the geiser.
Want to see your hot engine swimming is gas? It'll take years off of your life.
I'm sure there are a couple of little things I left out but you'll have a wonderful time experiencing the wonderful world of weber on your own. Enjoy!
What would life be without things to tackle right?!
Gary
Gary
...it's called pressure, I actually can do without it.
Well, I have had mine running on the car for 5 months and I have them working pretty well, They seem to run a little differant each day depending on the weather, but its worth it. they look and sound awesome.
Good Luck Guys
Dennis
Good Luck Guys
Dennis
They take just a bit of getting used to. I think that they are infectous like Malaria. You think that you are over them and suddenly the fever reappears.
I will never get used to the exhaust popping when you step off and brake hard. That can be a little unnerving and startling to unwary bystanders.
I will never get used to the exhaust popping when you step off and brake hard. That can be a little unnerving and startling to unwary bystanders.
Pantera Doug,
Couple questions if you dont mind ?
"Third Progression Hole Modification" Is recommend as a modification to IDA's that are going to be used on street engines, since it makes them significantly more drivable, have you ever done this ?
You stated "high pressure fuel inlet valves" ? On holleys these check valves can be installed in place of the little filter in the carb, where would these go, is there a place in the weber or are they an inline item ? Or is one installed on the main feed with the regulator ?
Thanks,
Ron
Couple questions if you dont mind ?
"Third Progression Hole Modification" Is recommend as a modification to IDA's that are going to be used on street engines, since it makes them significantly more drivable, have you ever done this ?
You stated "high pressure fuel inlet valves" ? On holleys these check valves can be installed in place of the little filter in the carb, where would these go, is there a place in the weber or are they an inline item ? Or is one installed on the main feed with the regulator ?
Thanks,
Ron
I'm enjoying your banter back & forth guys.
I think Dennis has the right attitude. They look bitchen, they sound bitchen, the throttle response is bitchen, but they are fussy. NO body using them has said they aren't. You say it different ways. But they're fussy.
Webers are like a religion. Of course, the adherents of some religions beat themselves with chains too! Others handle rattle snakes. You get the picture.
I have a picture of Dennis' motor pinned next to my bed! lol....You should hear it, man, with those 180s & those Webers, it wails! I had to take a cold shower after hearing his car run. I've never met a woman that excites me that much.
But I'm glad it's his car with those Webers & not mine. lol......
George
I think Dennis has the right attitude. They look bitchen, they sound bitchen, the throttle response is bitchen, but they are fussy. NO body using them has said they aren't. You say it different ways. But they're fussy.
Webers are like a religion. Of course, the adherents of some religions beat themselves with chains too! Others handle rattle snakes. You get the picture.
I have a picture of Dennis' motor pinned next to my bed! lol....You should hear it, man, with those 180s & those Webers, it wails! I had to take a cold shower after hearing his car run. I've never met a woman that excites me that much.
But I'm glad it's his car with those Webers & not mine. lol......
George
I think it would be a good topic of discussion George on the engine forum.
I have briefly written about Webers a couple of times in the past. Perhaps one of you guys who have owned them for a long term would like to write a Weber essay for the Bulletin Board?
George
George
I have had Webers since 1981 and been very pleased with them under almost all circumstances other than high altitude conditions when they perform poorly and you have lots of glorious black smoke pouring out. Webers are not for everybody. Having to notch out your rear decklid is too much for some owner's to handle for starters. The most concerning thing for me is the increased fire hazard. I do have a Halon system and have actually had to deploy it once.
Be mindful that four Weber 2-bbl carburetors offers more CFM than you can imagine, in my case 2600 CFM. When some owners are noting that a 850 Holley is too big, imagine having the Webers to dial in.
Cam selection is crucial and the overlap problem earlier noted is for real. Since a Weber manifold doesn't have a plenum, excess fuel has nowhere to go but up into the "stand-off" plume which is obviously quite flammable.
Having suffered two air cleaner based fires when the stand-off ignites, I no longer run with air cleaners. Fire proof air cleaners won't prevent a fire but only provide less fuel for the fire. I am always alert and vigilant and watch in my rear view mirror, just to be safe.
I am fortunate to have crossed paths with Augie Delgado in Orange County who took my Webers to the next level. He tunes the carburetors every two years.
I have ridden in all types of Panteras from single carbs to multiple carbs to forced induction and nitrous on tap. I favor Webers for my use because of the look, the sound and the instant power, especially when exiting a turn.
I would not recommend Webers to an owner that is looking for a seamless installation and operation. We have taken off more Weber set-ups than installed them.
Since my car was raced with Webers, historically, I have sympatico with them. Since this is an expensive modification, be sure you know what you want and that you have good technical help to get you through the learning curve.
Finally, most Weber owners have a similar experience to my own with a flat spot at a varying RPM range or "transition". I consider this trivial and simply have gotten used to it. With my present configuration, no amount of tuning will dispell it.
Respectfully,
Dave
Be mindful that four Weber 2-bbl carburetors offers more CFM than you can imagine, in my case 2600 CFM. When some owners are noting that a 850 Holley is too big, imagine having the Webers to dial in.
Cam selection is crucial and the overlap problem earlier noted is for real. Since a Weber manifold doesn't have a plenum, excess fuel has nowhere to go but up into the "stand-off" plume which is obviously quite flammable.
Having suffered two air cleaner based fires when the stand-off ignites, I no longer run with air cleaners. Fire proof air cleaners won't prevent a fire but only provide less fuel for the fire. I am always alert and vigilant and watch in my rear view mirror, just to be safe.
I am fortunate to have crossed paths with Augie Delgado in Orange County who took my Webers to the next level. He tunes the carburetors every two years.
I have ridden in all types of Panteras from single carbs to multiple carbs to forced induction and nitrous on tap. I favor Webers for my use because of the look, the sound and the instant power, especially when exiting a turn.
I would not recommend Webers to an owner that is looking for a seamless installation and operation. We have taken off more Weber set-ups than installed them.
Since my car was raced with Webers, historically, I have sympatico with them. Since this is an expensive modification, be sure you know what you want and that you have good technical help to get you through the learning curve.
Finally, most Weber owners have a similar experience to my own with a flat spot at a varying RPM range or "transition". I consider this trivial and simply have gotten used to it. With my present configuration, no amount of tuning will dispell it.
Respectfully,
Dave
An essay? Who is going to grade it? Why don't we just discuss them here? Or is that disgust them? Maybe if we talk about Webers here, someone will actually buy this guys setup from this classified ad?
To answer your questions ACCobra I know about the third transition hole modification. I personally wouldn't buy an IDA if I know it has it.
Webers are already, very, very streetable. It's the engine that is finaky with this much carburetion.
The modification, to try to put it in a nut shell, is to correct or overcome what the "Weber guys" call "the transition flat spot". Some days it's there some days no.
It shows itself generally between 2800 rpm and 3000 rpms.
The carbs are essentially running on the idle circuit to about 3000 rpm in a 48ida. This is the point that the main circuit starts to take effect.
Some days the idle makes it to 3000 some days it doesn't.
You may already know that the main circuit has a fuel jet an air jet and an emmulsion tube.
They are all changeable. The 351c likes a 140f, 160a and an F5 tube.
The most important of these three components are the fuel jet and air jet. They need to be kept in the same proportion when making changes, generally speaking. What the emulsion tube does is effect the strength of the air/fuel ratio at different engine rpms. It does this by reacting to vacuum drop through key located orafices in the carburetor.
The idle system in the IDA can only have the fuel jet changed in order to affect the strength of the circuit. One cannot change the air jet or the emmulsion tube for the idle circuit. It doesn't really have one, it's an idle jet holder.
That is the problem that creates the flat spot.
The fuel jet is plenty large enough but the "idle jet holder" is letting the mixture lean out "SOMETIMES". (air temp, humidity, altitude, barometric pressure all effect it). Racers just shorten it and say good air or bad air.
The third hole tries to fix this by giving more fuel at a cirtain throttle position but it doesn't need more fuel there, it needs a stronger mixture. There is a big difference.
If it was the main circuit we could try the various emullsion tubes until we found one better suited to richening the last 200rpm. In the idle circuit you can't. It isn't the quantity of the fuel that is causing the problem it is the strength of the emullsion.
What is the emullsion? Fuel itself won't combust. It needs to be mixed with air, oxygen specifically (that's in our air).
Stoiochemic (perfect chemical ratio for emissions) is 14.7:1. (sorry I don't spell real good, gosh golly!) The larger number is the portion of air and the one is the fuel. Fuel becomes volitile (explosive) at 20:1. Power in american v-8s is thought to be optimum at 12.9:1. You couldn't race at 14.7. If you could wind it up you would put a hole in a piston or burn it or the valves or do something really bad to the engine.
What "we" are doing with the jets and emulsion tubes is mechanically writing a fuel graph as close to optimum as our butts will inform us of.
Computer controlled cars can be programed to read a script much closer to what we can do mechanically. Frankly they rarely do.
Of course if you want to go on a dyno, hook it to an exhaust analizer and a computer that can load the drive train to simulated the course you are optimizing for, you could probably elliminate a lot of redundancey. It would certainly get you to a point at which I just put you here with the Webers for free. Of course you wouldn't be a real Weber person either.
I don't know if the "transition" can ever be completely eliminated. Not until someone wants to try to do a new idle jet holder for the IDA.
...and like Bob Dylan says in the song, "it ain't me babe!"
You asked another question too, but what was it? huh?
Barkeep, a couple of Buttery Nipples please!
To answer your questions ACCobra I know about the third transition hole modification. I personally wouldn't buy an IDA if I know it has it.
Webers are already, very, very streetable. It's the engine that is finaky with this much carburetion.
The modification, to try to put it in a nut shell, is to correct or overcome what the "Weber guys" call "the transition flat spot". Some days it's there some days no.
It shows itself generally between 2800 rpm and 3000 rpms.
The carbs are essentially running on the idle circuit to about 3000 rpm in a 48ida. This is the point that the main circuit starts to take effect.
Some days the idle makes it to 3000 some days it doesn't.
You may already know that the main circuit has a fuel jet an air jet and an emmulsion tube.
They are all changeable. The 351c likes a 140f, 160a and an F5 tube.
The most important of these three components are the fuel jet and air jet. They need to be kept in the same proportion when making changes, generally speaking. What the emulsion tube does is effect the strength of the air/fuel ratio at different engine rpms. It does this by reacting to vacuum drop through key located orafices in the carburetor.
The idle system in the IDA can only have the fuel jet changed in order to affect the strength of the circuit. One cannot change the air jet or the emmulsion tube for the idle circuit. It doesn't really have one, it's an idle jet holder.
That is the problem that creates the flat spot.
The fuel jet is plenty large enough but the "idle jet holder" is letting the mixture lean out "SOMETIMES". (air temp, humidity, altitude, barometric pressure all effect it). Racers just shorten it and say good air or bad air.
The third hole tries to fix this by giving more fuel at a cirtain throttle position but it doesn't need more fuel there, it needs a stronger mixture. There is a big difference.
If it was the main circuit we could try the various emullsion tubes until we found one better suited to richening the last 200rpm. In the idle circuit you can't. It isn't the quantity of the fuel that is causing the problem it is the strength of the emullsion.
What is the emullsion? Fuel itself won't combust. It needs to be mixed with air, oxygen specifically (that's in our air).
Stoiochemic (perfect chemical ratio for emissions) is 14.7:1. (sorry I don't spell real good, gosh golly!) The larger number is the portion of air and the one is the fuel. Fuel becomes volitile (explosive) at 20:1. Power in american v-8s is thought to be optimum at 12.9:1. You couldn't race at 14.7. If you could wind it up you would put a hole in a piston or burn it or the valves or do something really bad to the engine.
What "we" are doing with the jets and emulsion tubes is mechanically writing a fuel graph as close to optimum as our butts will inform us of.
Computer controlled cars can be programed to read a script much closer to what we can do mechanically. Frankly they rarely do.
Of course if you want to go on a dyno, hook it to an exhaust analizer and a computer that can load the drive train to simulated the course you are optimizing for, you could probably elliminate a lot of redundancey. It would certainly get you to a point at which I just put you here with the Webers for free. Of course you wouldn't be a real Weber person either.
I don't know if the "transition" can ever be completely eliminated. Not until someone wants to try to do a new idle jet holder for the IDA.
...and like Bob Dylan says in the song, "it ain't me babe!"
You asked another question too, but what was it? huh?
Barkeep, a couple of Buttery Nipples please!
I say PD and Whiplash ..... I do say thanks and I would like to be able to consult with you guys if thats OK ?
But I feel with my experience with Racing Cars and 22 of Mechanical Systems... LOL I think I'm ready to give it a shot..... and Whiplash a halon system would probably not be a bad idea...and yes I have installed them in a Methane Plant in the Bronx.
Couple minor questions to start.
1. Cam ? any specs. the motor is a fresh rebuilt 351C basically stock I choose this route since I'm having another one built as we speak, but would like the learning curve to be on this one.
2. PD this is for you ? Do those specs for Mai Jet, Air Jet and ET apply for a stock motor, I ask for this only to establish a base line to start.
3. As I asked before ? The high pressure fuel inlet valves ( check valves ) point me in the right direction ?
4. Fuel pump ? you recommend manual set to 3psi ?
5. Linkage seems straight foward ? Vacumm for the breaks...simple plumbing SWAGELOCK SS fittings.
6. Gaskets for non transfer of heat.. point well taken.
Last but not least .... have we anyone here in NY to help me tune this car... you sound like a good canidate ??? LOL
I have to ask for your email PD ?
I know all the weber talk is a little discouraging at times, but I dont discourage easy.... but who knows maybe you will say some day I told you soooo. That wont be the first time either... LOL
Again THANKS GUYS I LOVE YA !!!
But I feel with my experience with Racing Cars and 22 of Mechanical Systems... LOL I think I'm ready to give it a shot..... and Whiplash a halon system would probably not be a bad idea...and yes I have installed them in a Methane Plant in the Bronx.
Couple minor questions to start.
1. Cam ? any specs. the motor is a fresh rebuilt 351C basically stock I choose this route since I'm having another one built as we speak, but would like the learning curve to be on this one.
2. PD this is for you ? Do those specs for Mai Jet, Air Jet and ET apply for a stock motor, I ask for this only to establish a base line to start.
3. As I asked before ? The high pressure fuel inlet valves ( check valves ) point me in the right direction ?
4. Fuel pump ? you recommend manual set to 3psi ?
5. Linkage seems straight foward ? Vacumm for the breaks...simple plumbing SWAGELOCK SS fittings.
6. Gaskets for non transfer of heat.. point well taken.
Last but not least .... have we anyone here in NY to help me tune this car... you sound like a good canidate ??? LOL
I have to ask for your email PD ?
I know all the weber talk is a little discouraging at times, but I dont discourage easy.... but who knows maybe you will say some day I told you soooo. That wont be the first time either... LOL
Again THANKS GUYS I LOVE YA !!!
Mark, your the best .... you got me into this mess ... !! LOL just joking ... and who are they ?? my email ronmarl@optonline.net or post it here if you prefer ? Thanks Mark.
Ron
Ron
You don't luv us, trust me, it's the Buttery Nipples talking.
You can email me at hammer99@erols.com.
Me personally, I don't see any point in a hydraulic lifter CJ with Webers. They are for performance. You run a solid lifter, triple valve spring, titanium valves, high compression engine (rev limiter is a great idea incidentally). I don't agree with anyone who puts them on JUST for looks. That's rediculous. That's like buying a nuclear device because you like the black paint on it.
Webers aren't necessarily faster off the line, but they are better then anything I have ever driven coming out of a turn and they play over 100 like...well you have to experience that to believe it. I rember putting 10 lengths on a supercharged 66 GT350 and I was waiting for him.
I got a glimse of him beating the steering wheel with both hands to make it go faster... but back to your questions.
The 140 main is more representative to the size of the engine more then anything else. 289's take 125/215's. It will run on a box stock CJ cleanly. You can idle them down to a 125 m (with proportionate air corrector) and pretty much be limited to about 5500 rpm like a rev limiter. The F5 would stay the same. You coud use 65 idles on that one also.
You also need to get a unisync. You can't work without them. Idle screws should be between 1/2 turn and 3/4 turn out. I like about 5/8.
The size of the chokes is more signifigant to your useage and capabilaty of the engine then anything.
You can use 32mm (custom made for you) like Hall does. That's the most you should close them down. Personally I think thats a waste of carburetors.
I'd recommend useing the stock 37mm and go up as you feel. 42mm will change the entire nature of the carb and engine and move the torque peak up.
You could prove that you lost torque by that move but not by me.
A 42mm choke engine means that you flat out whale on it, no holds barred.
If you assemble all the parts we suggested, can bolt the thing together, and adjust the linkage with the unisync then you really don't need much help from me. You have been granted the knowledge of the ages, I certainly don't know much more about them.
I do recommend that you do use a manifold with the center pivot tower like Hall makes for the Pantera. It works great with the Pantera's stock pull throttle cable.
The side pivot would be for a C in another chassis like the Mustang. A lot of these manifolds are modified Hall manifolds. The Mustang guys like to mill the tower out and grind Hall Pantera off of it.
Inglese Inductions is right near us in CT. His prices on the parts you need are as good as anyone else and he's got everything that you need.
Also, count on needing the hottest ignition you can put in the car. There is just a "little" tendancy to foul the plugs.
As far as tuning your car? With all due respect, I'm way over my head with what I've got already.
With any luck I should be done with my stuff by the next millenium... hopefully.
I'm only on the Net 'cause it's my form of group therapy ( and cheaper).
You can email me at hammer99@erols.com.
Me personally, I don't see any point in a hydraulic lifter CJ with Webers. They are for performance. You run a solid lifter, triple valve spring, titanium valves, high compression engine (rev limiter is a great idea incidentally). I don't agree with anyone who puts them on JUST for looks. That's rediculous. That's like buying a nuclear device because you like the black paint on it.
Webers aren't necessarily faster off the line, but they are better then anything I have ever driven coming out of a turn and they play over 100 like...well you have to experience that to believe it. I rember putting 10 lengths on a supercharged 66 GT350 and I was waiting for him.
I got a glimse of him beating the steering wheel with both hands to make it go faster... but back to your questions.
The 140 main is more representative to the size of the engine more then anything else. 289's take 125/215's. It will run on a box stock CJ cleanly. You can idle them down to a 125 m (with proportionate air corrector) and pretty much be limited to about 5500 rpm like a rev limiter. The F5 would stay the same. You coud use 65 idles on that one also.
You also need to get a unisync. You can't work without them. Idle screws should be between 1/2 turn and 3/4 turn out. I like about 5/8.
The size of the chokes is more signifigant to your useage and capabilaty of the engine then anything.
You can use 32mm (custom made for you) like Hall does. That's the most you should close them down. Personally I think thats a waste of carburetors.
I'd recommend useing the stock 37mm and go up as you feel. 42mm will change the entire nature of the carb and engine and move the torque peak up.
You could prove that you lost torque by that move but not by me.
A 42mm choke engine means that you flat out whale on it, no holds barred.
If you assemble all the parts we suggested, can bolt the thing together, and adjust the linkage with the unisync then you really don't need much help from me. You have been granted the knowledge of the ages, I certainly don't know much more about them.
I do recommend that you do use a manifold with the center pivot tower like Hall makes for the Pantera. It works great with the Pantera's stock pull throttle cable.
The side pivot would be for a C in another chassis like the Mustang. A lot of these manifolds are modified Hall manifolds. The Mustang guys like to mill the tower out and grind Hall Pantera off of it.
Inglese Inductions is right near us in CT. His prices on the parts you need are as good as anyone else and he's got everything that you need.
Also, count on needing the hottest ignition you can put in the car. There is just a "little" tendancy to foul the plugs.
As far as tuning your car? With all due respect, I'm way over my head with what I've got already.
With any luck I should be done with my stuff by the next millenium... hopefully.
I'm only on the Net 'cause it's my form of group therapy ( and cheaper).
Oh come on. Here is a kit that fixes everyone of those problems you guys are complaining about. Just buy this kit, install it, and all your headaches are over. You can thank me later.
http://www.racetep.com/weber/weberfi.html
http://www.racetep.com/weber/weberfi.html
Who's complaining?
Incidentally, that is an IDF system. There is no IDF manifold for a 351c and the IDA's and the IDF's don't interchange. You are missing the entire point of Webers and maybe even the Pantera I think.
If there was a computer controlled induction system on a Pantera at LeManns in 73 then maybe I'd run it now. But there wasn't.
If there was a computer controlled induction system on a Pantera at LeManns in 73 then maybe I'd run it now. But there wasn't.
Oh well, here I thought you guys were complaining about what a pain they were to keep adjusted. I was just trying to help you out. I still have my eye on those Hilborns. They may have not been on Panteras back in the day, but they were sure on a lot of Can-Am cars and such.
I know a lot of Cobra guys are going throttle bodies that look like Holleys so that it looks like old school but performs like new school. Which I think is my point. Why put up with old school pain in the ass stuff when you can have something that looks like it is from the seventies, but is chock full of the latest go fast like a Tiger but start and act like a kitten most of the time goodies????
I know a lot of Cobra guys are going throttle bodies that look like Holleys so that it looks like old school but performs like new school. Which I think is my point. Why put up with old school pain in the ass stuff when you can have something that looks like it is from the seventies, but is chock full of the latest go fast like a Tiger but start and act like a kitten most of the time goodies????
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I don't agree with anyone who puts them on JUST for looks. That's rediculous.
The hell I can't, I admit Webers don't make sense in many respects but I want to build a car that represents the enthusiesm of an erra same as you not wanting to put FI when they raced Lemans with Webers. I am willing to pull the wrenches and learn to configure them drive them and make them run. I already have my set. If everything is configured wrong, well then I will just start over again. This is why we get into the hobby because things apeal to us and they arn't always for the right reason.
Gary
The point of jumping out of a plane at 10,000 feet is so no one hears you scream. It's the rush that you feel when the chute finally opens.
What's the point of turning a key, having the engine fire flawlessly, time after time after time after time? That's pretty boring isn't it?
You need to feel the anxiaty of will they explode this time, will they catch this time, that's the rush. It's a spiritual thing.
It's the reason we wear Depends!
What's the point of turning a key, having the engine fire flawlessly, time after time after time after time? That's pretty boring isn't it?
You need to feel the anxiaty of will they explode this time, will they catch this time, that's the rush. It's a spiritual thing.
It's the reason we wear Depends!
Uhm,
I have never jumped out of my plane. The passengers don't know how to fly!
Gary
I have never jumped out of my plane. The passengers don't know how to fly!
Gary
Gary I can recommend Kava-kava, it's really great.quote:Originally posted by comp2:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I don't agree with anyone who puts them on JUST for looks. That's rediculous.
The hell I can't, I admit Webers don't make sense in many respects but I want to build a car that represents the enthusiesm of an erra same as you not wanting to put FI when they raced Lemans with Webers. I am willing to pull the wrenches and learn to configure them drive them and make them run. I already have my set. If everything is configured wrong, well then I will just start over again. This is why we get into the hobby because things apeal to us and they arn't always for the right reason.
Gary
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
Uhm,
I have never jumped out of my plane. The passengers don't know how to fly!
Gary
There's always time to learn.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
There is no IDF manifold for a 351c and the IDA's and the IDF's don't interchange.
Technically Doug, that is wrong, there are at least 2 IDF manifolds that I know of. The first, mfd by Redline of Australia, sits the carbs too high to fit under the engine screen, but is readily available. Its designed for 2V heads. It has a unique plenum incorporated into the lifter valley to act as a vacuum tank.
The second, mfd by Cain of Australia, sits the carbs much lower. Not sure which size ports it has, always assumed they were 2V ports. This manifold is out of production & very hard to find. I've been looking for one. If I could find it, I would probably give Webers a go.
There is a 3rd IDF manifold I have seen on a Pantera GT5-S in Europe, belonging to Kjell Iseborn. I have no info regarding that manifold.
THe IDA is a racing carb, it has an idle circuit & a main circuit, no intermediate circuit, hence the flat spot Dave referred to, hence their fussy nature. The IDF is a street carb, it has an intermediate circuit and is not nearly so fussy. They are also shorter, to fit under the engine screen, and air filters are readily available.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If there was a computer controlled induction system on a Pantera at LeManns in 73 then maybe I'd run it now. But there wasn't.
Like you wrote before, they are a religion. Some religious folks walk on coals & broken glass, sleep on beds of nails, willingly!
He, he, he ..........
Your friend on the DTBB, George
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Yes George, I think that I said it was a race carb. But the cause of the transition problem in the IDA is as I described. The third transition fixes nothing in this set up. Not with an F5 main tube.
I know that the IDF is a better application for the street. I have not tried them.
When I had to make my decision on the manifold last May, there was only one manifold available for my A3's or even the iron 4v (that's two, yes I know, but who's counting). Technically you are wrong too. There is a Hilman-Moody manifold. It appears to be the first of the first. There is a Detomaso manifold which appears to be a copy of the H_M. (don't ask about that one, you don't want to know) The Hall manifold is a copy of the Detomaso, but beefed up.
There were no adaptors available from Red-line or Inglese at the time of decision. Did I check with Australian Yellow Pages, no, sorry I didn't.
I am not being argumentative here about anything. I refer to what former President Clinton once said, "it all depends on what is is"
I know that the IDF is a better application for the street. I have not tried them.
When I had to make my decision on the manifold last May, there was only one manifold available for my A3's or even the iron 4v (that's two, yes I know, but who's counting). Technically you are wrong too. There is a Hilman-Moody manifold. It appears to be the first of the first. There is a Detomaso manifold which appears to be a copy of the H_M. (don't ask about that one, you don't want to know) The Hall manifold is a copy of the Detomaso, but beefed up.
There were no adaptors available from Red-line or Inglese at the time of decision. Did I check with Australian Yellow Pages, no, sorry I didn't.
I am not being argumentative here about anything. I refer to what former President Clinton once said, "it all depends on what is is"
OK OK OK we are getting off the technical subject again !!! LOL GEORGE ???????
I got Whiplash and PD to help me here ..... come on we were on a roll talking shop. I leave for the night and now we are crying and complaining again. LOL This was Tech talk.
Stop wining and complaining about practical. I dont drive my PANTERA to work ITS NOT PRACTICAL. I drive it to the grocery store !! LOL
I'm looking foward to this rush they all talk about throttle responce ??? I'm willing to sacrifice here.
The last time I made a 100 mph pass down my street I almost ran over DMX ( the vulgar Rapper on the radio ) . You had to be there. It was 12:00 at night and the PANTERA was roaring down an old country road and I came around the bend and all you seen in the rear view mirror was hats, dogs, leashes, shirts ...jumping in the bushes. that was a big RUSH ! ... yea like jumping out of a plane at 10k feet and no one hears you scream..... YEA THATS IT !!! Ok I have to smack myself and go back to work.
Ron
I got Whiplash and PD to help me here ..... come on we were on a roll talking shop. I leave for the night and now we are crying and complaining again. LOL This was Tech talk.
Stop wining and complaining about practical. I dont drive my PANTERA to work ITS NOT PRACTICAL. I drive it to the grocery store !! LOL
I'm looking foward to this rush they all talk about throttle responce ??? I'm willing to sacrifice here.
The last time I made a 100 mph pass down my street I almost ran over DMX ( the vulgar Rapper on the radio ) . You had to be there. It was 12:00 at night and the PANTERA was roaring down an old country road and I came around the bend and all you seen in the rear view mirror was hats, dogs, leashes, shirts ...jumping in the bushes. that was a big RUSH ! ... yea like jumping out of a plane at 10k feet and no one hears you scream..... YEA THATS IT !!! Ok I have to smack myself and go back to work.
Ron
Patience ACCobra, all good things come to he who waits. When you come over to the Weber side you will understand.
George, do own those manifolds or just the pictures?
What's the point of putting all that carburetion on 2v heads. They are very, very, not good.
George, do own those manifolds or just the pictures?
What's the point of putting all that carburetion on 2v heads. They are very, very, not good.
Oh, got another after thought. I remember when Inglese built the Chevy SB Weber manifold. It has a center plenum like this one pictured here. He immediately took it to the dyno and immediately melted the valves on the heads with it. It seems that the plenum caused the engine to suddenly lean out under load and self destructed the engine.
I don't know if that was ever fixed but I do recall that manifold with a bih * next to it stating that it was "for show only".
It looks a lot like this thing here does.
I don't know if that was ever fixed but I do recall that manifold with a bih * next to it stating that it was "for show only".
It looks a lot like this thing here does.
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
I dont drive my PANTERA to work ITS NOT PRACTICAL. LOL Ron
Every Pantera owner is different, and has different ideas of how to use his or her Pantera. There is room enough for everybody in our community if we respect each others differences. I do drive my Pantera to work. Eventually I'll drive it all over North America and try to meet each of you.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
George, do own those manifolds or just the pictures?.
I did own the Redline manifold in the picture, but sold it. I do not own a Cain manifold, but I am in the market for one if anybody knows where I might find one.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
What's the point of putting all that carburetion on 2v heads. They are very, very, not good.
The Aussies favor 2V heads for several reasons, one being they were more plentiful in their country, the 4V heads were scarce. All the 4V motors in Australia were sourced from the US, so when Cleveland production ceased in the US, the supply of 4V motors in Australia also ceased. However, the Aussies were quite happy with 2V heads, because with bigger valves & porting, they can support 450 to 500 bhp, which isn't bad. I would rather have a 2V Cleveland head to work with, than a SBC or Windsor Ford head, any day of the week. The 2V heads are also advantageous for heavier vehicles, towing, higher rear end gearing, automatic transmissions with low stall speed converters, etc. Frankly, if you are not going to rev a standard displacement Cleveland beyond 6000 rpm, there is little need for the 4V head.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
quote:Frankly, if you are not going to rev a standard displacement Cleveland beyond 6000 rpm, there is little need for the 4V head.
AAAAHHHAAAA!! George, I knew I could get you to start thinking like me. All I had to do was keep slowly and carefully working on you until one day, Viola!!! Revs is where a Cleveland really shines. Let those heads breath. 1300 cfm carbs??? No problem, just up the revs to match.
Redline Performance is part of Hardiman Auto in Sydney;
Their website at http://www.redlineauto.com.au lists the manifold as: PART NO. 12-351/12-101 4 X 48 IDF Weber manifold to suit Ford 302-351C 2V or 4V cylinder heads, manifold ports are 2V size. P/No.12-351 is manifold valley section; 12-101 is 4 carburettor manifold adaptors.
LINKAGE KIT P/NO. 42-31
Ahhh Sydney....brings back memories of my 3 years in Newcastle (2 hrs North of Sydney). What I'd give to exchange the current Reno 19F for the Aussie summer right now. The P car would be out and I'd be cruising those twisty winding little roads.. albeit on the wrong side
Their website at http://www.redlineauto.com.au lists the manifold as: PART NO. 12-351/12-101 4 X 48 IDF Weber manifold to suit Ford 302-351C 2V or 4V cylinder heads, manifold ports are 2V size. P/No.12-351 is manifold valley section; 12-101 is 4 carburettor manifold adaptors.
LINKAGE KIT P/NO. 42-31
Ahhh Sydney....brings back memories of my 3 years in Newcastle (2 hrs North of Sydney). What I'd give to exchange the current Reno 19F for the Aussie summer right now. The P car would be out and I'd be cruising those twisty winding little roads.. albeit on the wrong side
Well take a peek at what I just found;
Carbs Unlimited sell a complete 4x48 IDF kit for the 351C at $3295.
http://www.carburetion.com/weber/wildv8.asp
There you go George...no excuse now
Carbs Unlimited sell a complete 4x48 IDF kit for the 351C at $3295.
http://www.carburetion.com/weber/wildv8.asp
There you go George...no excuse now
quote:Originally posted by Joules5:
Well take a peek at what I just found;
Carbs Unlimited sell a complete 4x48 IDF kit for the 351C at $3295.
http://www.carburetion.com/weber/wildv8.asp
There you go George...no excuse now
Good find Joules. That gold velocity stacks just set them off real pretty like. That is less money than I thought they would be too.
Interesting finds, all of you. Blue Thunder is manufacturering aluminum spacers to use 302 manifolds on 351 blocks.
Both of these sites are listing the manifolds as 302-351 applications.
There aren't a lot of details given or detailed pictures available.
I am suspicious that these are 302 IDF manifolds with adaptor plates added to them and then become 351 intakes.
That isn't what the pictures are showing but I'm suspicious by nature so don't shoot me if I'm wrong. The 302 IDF manifold has been around for more then a couple of years now. That I knew about. This is the first I've heard of a dedicated 351c IDF manifold.
I will say for those of you who insist on running a 351w, Lord knows why, that the Blue Thunder 302 2x4 manifold with spacer plates would be an outrageous set up on your Pantera and it would run two Holleys, not eight of these hungry, tempermental, ungrateful spagetti bender specials. Sorry, it just came over me...I don't understand why?
Both of these sites are listing the manifolds as 302-351 applications.
There aren't a lot of details given or detailed pictures available.
I am suspicious that these are 302 IDF manifolds with adaptor plates added to them and then become 351 intakes.
That isn't what the pictures are showing but I'm suspicious by nature so don't shoot me if I'm wrong. The 302 IDF manifold has been around for more then a couple of years now. That I knew about. This is the first I've heard of a dedicated 351c IDF manifold.
I will say for those of you who insist on running a 351w, Lord knows why, that the Blue Thunder 302 2x4 manifold with spacer plates would be an outrageous set up on your Pantera and it would run two Holleys, not eight of these hungry, tempermental, ungrateful spagetti bender specials. Sorry, it just came over me...I don't understand why?