I've moved this topic from the parts for sale forum to the engine forum, it is far too interesting to be lost over in the parts for sale section. I hope this doesn't cause any confusion. keep it up.
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It's funny how the webers appear to come in waves, I know they look awesome, but hear is what I found out about them, They take quite abit of time to dial in and they seem to run differant everyday do to weather condititions,and if you have a new motor I would suggest running a single carb to search out the little bugs and break in. the webers are not something you just bolt on and go, it takes alot of time to get them right for your application, every engine is differant and you need to run them for a period time then make jet changes one at a time. it could run rich or lean at low, medium, high rpm, you have quite a few jets and air jets to consider.
But there is know way anything looks better.
So good luck and happy motoring
Dennis
But there is know way anything looks better.
So good luck and happy motoring
Dennis
Yes to what you said denis. They change with good air and bad air just like a race car does. Jetting on a C is actually very easy. The base line is 140/160 F5. Idles are F.70. I've run with home made .65 idles.
Chokes are about all you need to play with. They come stock with 37mm. Hall only sells them with 32mm. 289 race size is 42mm. I've run as big as 45mm. Mine are 40.5 now but that could change depending on what I'm doing that day.
The Pantera linkage doesn't seem to twist up as bad as other applications but it isn't too unusual to have to re-syn it after running under race conditions for a while. That's not that big a deal.
The problem with the Pantera is how to keep water out of them because they are hagging out on the veranda.
Webers are a way of life.
Chokes are about all you need to play with. They come stock with 37mm. Hall only sells them with 32mm. 289 race size is 42mm. I've run as big as 45mm. Mine are 40.5 now but that could change depending on what I'm doing that day.
The Pantera linkage doesn't seem to twist up as bad as other applications but it isn't too unusual to have to re-syn it after running under race conditions for a while. That's not that big a deal.
The problem with the Pantera is how to keep water out of them because they are hagging out on the veranda.
Webers are a way of life.
My 2 cents !! LOL
I can only say I have tuned them on a friends car many times. They might be a little harder then a 4V carb becaue there are 4 of them instead of 1. Yes the linkage has to be in sinc, but if you ever ran 2 4V's on a V8 these are the same issues. I have them on the 351c they are on the motor let the games begin.
One comment ..... the 4V carb doesnt bolt on out of any box.... the most common mistake ever made with a Holley Carb is its bolted on out of the box.
I think every body should own a Holley carb book. I bought the Weber book and read it. These manuals address many issues besides the induction system.
I can only say I have tuned them on a friends car many times. They might be a little harder then a 4V carb becaue there are 4 of them instead of 1. Yes the linkage has to be in sinc, but if you ever ran 2 4V's on a V8 these are the same issues. I have them on the 351c they are on the motor let the games begin.
One comment ..... the 4V carb doesnt bolt on out of any box.... the most common mistake ever made with a Holley Carb is its bolted on out of the box.
I think every body should own a Holley carb book. I bought the Weber book and read it. These manuals address many issues besides the induction system.
If they are hard to keep tuned they may have the wrong inserts which is common. With correct inserts they should stay reasonably in tune. Like anything else, they have theyer own techniques.
Gary
Gary
Heck why don't you guys just buy the ones that just look like webers but are actually really secret fuel injectors inside?? Then all you gotta do is hook it up to the computer and drive away.
They are more sensative, actually the engine is, because it is an IR and each cylinder has it's own carb. There is no community plenum for them to share and average out the changes.
I always found it interesting that the Holley Carb size chart does not apply to an IR setup. A typical set of 48IDA's is flowing around 2400cfm.
They are also very sensative to reverberation in the manifold. If you are going to seriously try to tune them you should limit the cam overlap to 30 to 35 degrees. In other words a special "weber cam".
Big overlap cams don't work well with them. The overlap on the exhaust actually reverses the flow of the carb and blows it back out of the stack.
Another caution, make sure that you use high pressure fuel inlet valves, low fuel pressure (3psi) and heat isolating gaskets. If you don't when you shut the enging off hot, the fuel will perkulate like in a coffee pot and turn into "old faithful", the geiser.
Want to see your hot engine swimming is gas? It'll take years off of your life.
I'm sure there are a couple of little things I left out but you'll have a wonderful time experiencing the wonderful world of weber on your own. Enjoy!
I always found it interesting that the Holley Carb size chart does not apply to an IR setup. A typical set of 48IDA's is flowing around 2400cfm.
They are also very sensative to reverberation in the manifold. If you are going to seriously try to tune them you should limit the cam overlap to 30 to 35 degrees. In other words a special "weber cam".
Big overlap cams don't work well with them. The overlap on the exhaust actually reverses the flow of the carb and blows it back out of the stack.
Another caution, make sure that you use high pressure fuel inlet valves, low fuel pressure (3psi) and heat isolating gaskets. If you don't when you shut the enging off hot, the fuel will perkulate like in a coffee pot and turn into "old faithful", the geiser.
Want to see your hot engine swimming is gas? It'll take years off of your life.
I'm sure there are a couple of little things I left out but you'll have a wonderful time experiencing the wonderful world of weber on your own. Enjoy!
What would life be without things to tackle right?!
Gary
Gary
...it's called pressure, I actually can do without it.
Well, I have had mine running on the car for 5 months and I have them working pretty well, They seem to run a little differant each day depending on the weather, but its worth it. they look and sound awesome.
Good Luck Guys
Dennis
Good Luck Guys
Dennis
They take just a bit of getting used to. I think that they are infectous like Malaria. You think that you are over them and suddenly the fever reappears.
I will never get used to the exhaust popping when you step off and brake hard. That can be a little unnerving and startling to unwary bystanders.
I will never get used to the exhaust popping when you step off and brake hard. That can be a little unnerving and startling to unwary bystanders.
Pantera Doug,
Couple questions if you dont mind ?
"Third Progression Hole Modification" Is recommend as a modification to IDA's that are going to be used on street engines, since it makes them significantly more drivable, have you ever done this ?
You stated "high pressure fuel inlet valves" ? On holleys these check valves can be installed in place of the little filter in the carb, where would these go, is there a place in the weber or are they an inline item ? Or is one installed on the main feed with the regulator ?
Thanks,
Ron
Couple questions if you dont mind ?
"Third Progression Hole Modification" Is recommend as a modification to IDA's that are going to be used on street engines, since it makes them significantly more drivable, have you ever done this ?
You stated "high pressure fuel inlet valves" ? On holleys these check valves can be installed in place of the little filter in the carb, where would these go, is there a place in the weber or are they an inline item ? Or is one installed on the main feed with the regulator ?
Thanks,
Ron
I'm enjoying your banter back & forth guys.
I think Dennis has the right attitude. They look bitchen, they sound bitchen, the throttle response is bitchen, but they are fussy. NO body using them has said they aren't. You say it different ways. But they're fussy.
Webers are like a religion. Of course, the adherents of some religions beat themselves with chains too! Others handle rattle snakes. You get the picture.
I have a picture of Dennis' motor pinned next to my bed! lol....You should hear it, man, with those 180s & those Webers, it wails! I had to take a cold shower after hearing his car run. I've never met a woman that excites me that much.
But I'm glad it's his car with those Webers & not mine. lol......
George
I think Dennis has the right attitude. They look bitchen, they sound bitchen, the throttle response is bitchen, but they are fussy. NO body using them has said they aren't. You say it different ways. But they're fussy.
Webers are like a religion. Of course, the adherents of some religions beat themselves with chains too! Others handle rattle snakes. You get the picture.
I have a picture of Dennis' motor pinned next to my bed! lol....You should hear it, man, with those 180s & those Webers, it wails! I had to take a cold shower after hearing his car run. I've never met a woman that excites me that much.
But I'm glad it's his car with those Webers & not mine. lol......
George
I think it would be a good topic of discussion George on the engine forum.
I have briefly written about Webers a couple of times in the past. Perhaps one of you guys who have owned them for a long term would like to write a Weber essay for the Bulletin Board?
George
George
I have had Webers since 1981 and been very pleased with them under almost all circumstances other than high altitude conditions when they perform poorly and you have lots of glorious black smoke pouring out. Webers are not for everybody. Having to notch out your rear decklid is too much for some owner's to handle for starters. The most concerning thing for me is the increased fire hazard. I do have a Halon system and have actually had to deploy it once.
Be mindful that four Weber 2-bbl carburetors offers more CFM than you can imagine, in my case 2600 CFM. When some owners are noting that a 850 Holley is too big, imagine having the Webers to dial in.
Cam selection is crucial and the overlap problem earlier noted is for real. Since a Weber manifold doesn't have a plenum, excess fuel has nowhere to go but up into the "stand-off" plume which is obviously quite flammable.
Having suffered two air cleaner based fires when the stand-off ignites, I no longer run with air cleaners. Fire proof air cleaners won't prevent a fire but only provide less fuel for the fire. I am always alert and vigilant and watch in my rear view mirror, just to be safe.
I am fortunate to have crossed paths with Augie Delgado in Orange County who took my Webers to the next level. He tunes the carburetors every two years.
I have ridden in all types of Panteras from single carbs to multiple carbs to forced induction and nitrous on tap. I favor Webers for my use because of the look, the sound and the instant power, especially when exiting a turn.
I would not recommend Webers to an owner that is looking for a seamless installation and operation. We have taken off more Weber set-ups than installed them.
Since my car was raced with Webers, historically, I have sympatico with them. Since this is an expensive modification, be sure you know what you want and that you have good technical help to get you through the learning curve.
Finally, most Weber owners have a similar experience to my own with a flat spot at a varying RPM range or "transition". I consider this trivial and simply have gotten used to it. With my present configuration, no amount of tuning will dispell it.
Respectfully,
Dave
Be mindful that four Weber 2-bbl carburetors offers more CFM than you can imagine, in my case 2600 CFM. When some owners are noting that a 850 Holley is too big, imagine having the Webers to dial in.
Cam selection is crucial and the overlap problem earlier noted is for real. Since a Weber manifold doesn't have a plenum, excess fuel has nowhere to go but up into the "stand-off" plume which is obviously quite flammable.
Having suffered two air cleaner based fires when the stand-off ignites, I no longer run with air cleaners. Fire proof air cleaners won't prevent a fire but only provide less fuel for the fire. I am always alert and vigilant and watch in my rear view mirror, just to be safe.
I am fortunate to have crossed paths with Augie Delgado in Orange County who took my Webers to the next level. He tunes the carburetors every two years.
I have ridden in all types of Panteras from single carbs to multiple carbs to forced induction and nitrous on tap. I favor Webers for my use because of the look, the sound and the instant power, especially when exiting a turn.
I would not recommend Webers to an owner that is looking for a seamless installation and operation. We have taken off more Weber set-ups than installed them.
Since my car was raced with Webers, historically, I have sympatico with them. Since this is an expensive modification, be sure you know what you want and that you have good technical help to get you through the learning curve.
Finally, most Weber owners have a similar experience to my own with a flat spot at a varying RPM range or "transition". I consider this trivial and simply have gotten used to it. With my present configuration, no amount of tuning will dispell it.
Respectfully,
Dave
An essay? Who is going to grade it? Why don't we just discuss them here? Or is that disgust them? Maybe if we talk about Webers here, someone will actually buy this guys setup from this classified ad?
To answer your questions ACCobra I know about the third transition hole modification. I personally wouldn't buy an IDA if I know it has it.
Webers are already, very, very streetable. It's the engine that is finaky with this much carburetion.
The modification, to try to put it in a nut shell, is to correct or overcome what the "Weber guys" call "the transition flat spot". Some days it's there some days no.
It shows itself generally between 2800 rpm and 3000 rpms.
The carbs are essentially running on the idle circuit to about 3000 rpm in a 48ida. This is the point that the main circuit starts to take effect.
Some days the idle makes it to 3000 some days it doesn't.
You may already know that the main circuit has a fuel jet an air jet and an emmulsion tube.
They are all changeable. The 351c likes a 140f, 160a and an F5 tube.
The most important of these three components are the fuel jet and air jet. They need to be kept in the same proportion when making changes, generally speaking. What the emulsion tube does is effect the strength of the air/fuel ratio at different engine rpms. It does this by reacting to vacuum drop through key located orafices in the carburetor.
The idle system in the IDA can only have the fuel jet changed in order to affect the strength of the circuit. One cannot change the air jet or the emmulsion tube for the idle circuit. It doesn't really have one, it's an idle jet holder.
That is the problem that creates the flat spot.
The fuel jet is plenty large enough but the "idle jet holder" is letting the mixture lean out "SOMETIMES". (air temp, humidity, altitude, barometric pressure all effect it). Racers just shorten it and say good air or bad air.
The third hole tries to fix this by giving more fuel at a cirtain throttle position but it doesn't need more fuel there, it needs a stronger mixture. There is a big difference.
If it was the main circuit we could try the various emullsion tubes until we found one better suited to richening the last 200rpm. In the idle circuit you can't. It isn't the quantity of the fuel that is causing the problem it is the strength of the emullsion.
What is the emullsion? Fuel itself won't combust. It needs to be mixed with air, oxygen specifically (that's in our air).
Stoiochemic (perfect chemical ratio for emissions) is 14.7:1. (sorry I don't spell real good, gosh golly!) The larger number is the portion of air and the one is the fuel. Fuel becomes volitile (explosive) at 20:1. Power in american v-8s is thought to be optimum at 12.9:1. You couldn't race at 14.7. If you could wind it up you would put a hole in a piston or burn it or the valves or do something really bad to the engine.
What "we" are doing with the jets and emulsion tubes is mechanically writing a fuel graph as close to optimum as our butts will inform us of.
Computer controlled cars can be programed to read a script much closer to what we can do mechanically. Frankly they rarely do.
Of course if you want to go on a dyno, hook it to an exhaust analizer and a computer that can load the drive train to simulated the course you are optimizing for, you could probably elliminate a lot of redundancey. It would certainly get you to a point at which I just put you here with the Webers for free. Of course you wouldn't be a real Weber person either.
I don't know if the "transition" can ever be completely eliminated. Not until someone wants to try to do a new idle jet holder for the IDA.
...and like Bob Dylan says in the song, "it ain't me babe!"
You asked another question too, but what was it? huh?
Barkeep, a couple of Buttery Nipples please!
To answer your questions ACCobra I know about the third transition hole modification. I personally wouldn't buy an IDA if I know it has it.
Webers are already, very, very streetable. It's the engine that is finaky with this much carburetion.
The modification, to try to put it in a nut shell, is to correct or overcome what the "Weber guys" call "the transition flat spot". Some days it's there some days no.
It shows itself generally between 2800 rpm and 3000 rpms.
The carbs are essentially running on the idle circuit to about 3000 rpm in a 48ida. This is the point that the main circuit starts to take effect.
Some days the idle makes it to 3000 some days it doesn't.
You may already know that the main circuit has a fuel jet an air jet and an emmulsion tube.
They are all changeable. The 351c likes a 140f, 160a and an F5 tube.
The most important of these three components are the fuel jet and air jet. They need to be kept in the same proportion when making changes, generally speaking. What the emulsion tube does is effect the strength of the air/fuel ratio at different engine rpms. It does this by reacting to vacuum drop through key located orafices in the carburetor.
The idle system in the IDA can only have the fuel jet changed in order to affect the strength of the circuit. One cannot change the air jet or the emmulsion tube for the idle circuit. It doesn't really have one, it's an idle jet holder.
That is the problem that creates the flat spot.
The fuel jet is plenty large enough but the "idle jet holder" is letting the mixture lean out "SOMETIMES". (air temp, humidity, altitude, barometric pressure all effect it). Racers just shorten it and say good air or bad air.
The third hole tries to fix this by giving more fuel at a cirtain throttle position but it doesn't need more fuel there, it needs a stronger mixture. There is a big difference.
If it was the main circuit we could try the various emullsion tubes until we found one better suited to richening the last 200rpm. In the idle circuit you can't. It isn't the quantity of the fuel that is causing the problem it is the strength of the emullsion.
What is the emullsion? Fuel itself won't combust. It needs to be mixed with air, oxygen specifically (that's in our air).
Stoiochemic (perfect chemical ratio for emissions) is 14.7:1. (sorry I don't spell real good, gosh golly!) The larger number is the portion of air and the one is the fuel. Fuel becomes volitile (explosive) at 20:1. Power in american v-8s is thought to be optimum at 12.9:1. You couldn't race at 14.7. If you could wind it up you would put a hole in a piston or burn it or the valves or do something really bad to the engine.
What "we" are doing with the jets and emulsion tubes is mechanically writing a fuel graph as close to optimum as our butts will inform us of.
Computer controlled cars can be programed to read a script much closer to what we can do mechanically. Frankly they rarely do.
Of course if you want to go on a dyno, hook it to an exhaust analizer and a computer that can load the drive train to simulated the course you are optimizing for, you could probably elliminate a lot of redundancey. It would certainly get you to a point at which I just put you here with the Webers for free. Of course you wouldn't be a real Weber person either.
I don't know if the "transition" can ever be completely eliminated. Not until someone wants to try to do a new idle jet holder for the IDA.
...and like Bob Dylan says in the song, "it ain't me babe!"
You asked another question too, but what was it? huh?
Barkeep, a couple of Buttery Nipples please!
I say PD and Whiplash ..... I do say thanks and I would like to be able to consult with you guys if thats OK ?
But I feel with my experience with Racing Cars and 22 of Mechanical Systems... LOL I think I'm ready to give it a shot..... and Whiplash a halon system would probably not be a bad idea...and yes I have installed them in a Methane Plant in the Bronx.
Couple minor questions to start.
1. Cam ? any specs. the motor is a fresh rebuilt 351C basically stock I choose this route since I'm having another one built as we speak, but would like the learning curve to be on this one.
2. PD this is for you ? Do those specs for Mai Jet, Air Jet and ET apply for a stock motor, I ask for this only to establish a base line to start.
3. As I asked before ? The high pressure fuel inlet valves ( check valves ) point me in the right direction ?
4. Fuel pump ? you recommend manual set to 3psi ?
5. Linkage seems straight foward ? Vacumm for the breaks...simple plumbing SWAGELOCK SS fittings.
6. Gaskets for non transfer of heat.. point well taken.
Last but not least .... have we anyone here in NY to help me tune this car... you sound like a good canidate ??? LOL
I have to ask for your email PD ?
I know all the weber talk is a little discouraging at times, but I dont discourage easy.... but who knows maybe you will say some day I told you soooo. That wont be the first time either... LOL
Again THANKS GUYS I LOVE YA !!!
But I feel with my experience with Racing Cars and 22 of Mechanical Systems... LOL I think I'm ready to give it a shot..... and Whiplash a halon system would probably not be a bad idea...and yes I have installed them in a Methane Plant in the Bronx.
Couple minor questions to start.
1. Cam ? any specs. the motor is a fresh rebuilt 351C basically stock I choose this route since I'm having another one built as we speak, but would like the learning curve to be on this one.
2. PD this is for you ? Do those specs for Mai Jet, Air Jet and ET apply for a stock motor, I ask for this only to establish a base line to start.
3. As I asked before ? The high pressure fuel inlet valves ( check valves ) point me in the right direction ?
4. Fuel pump ? you recommend manual set to 3psi ?
5. Linkage seems straight foward ? Vacumm for the breaks...simple plumbing SWAGELOCK SS fittings.
6. Gaskets for non transfer of heat.. point well taken.
Last but not least .... have we anyone here in NY to help me tune this car... you sound like a good canidate ??? LOL
I have to ask for your email PD ?
I know all the weber talk is a little discouraging at times, but I dont discourage easy.... but who knows maybe you will say some day I told you soooo. That wont be the first time either... LOL
Again THANKS GUYS I LOVE YA !!!
Mark, your the best .... you got me into this mess ... !! LOL just joking ... and who are they ?? my email ronmarl@optonline.net or post it here if you prefer ? Thanks Mark.
Ron
Ron
You don't luv us, trust me, it's the Buttery Nipples talking.
You can email me at hammer99@erols.com.
Me personally, I don't see any point in a hydraulic lifter CJ with Webers. They are for performance. You run a solid lifter, triple valve spring, titanium valves, high compression engine (rev limiter is a great idea incidentally). I don't agree with anyone who puts them on JUST for looks. That's rediculous. That's like buying a nuclear device because you like the black paint on it.
Webers aren't necessarily faster off the line, but they are better then anything I have ever driven coming out of a turn and they play over 100 like...well you have to experience that to believe it. I rember putting 10 lengths on a supercharged 66 GT350 and I was waiting for him.
I got a glimse of him beating the steering wheel with both hands to make it go faster... but back to your questions.
The 140 main is more representative to the size of the engine more then anything else. 289's take 125/215's. It will run on a box stock CJ cleanly. You can idle them down to a 125 m (with proportionate air corrector) and pretty much be limited to about 5500 rpm like a rev limiter. The F5 would stay the same. You coud use 65 idles on that one also.
You also need to get a unisync. You can't work without them. Idle screws should be between 1/2 turn and 3/4 turn out. I like about 5/8.
The size of the chokes is more signifigant to your useage and capabilaty of the engine then anything.
You can use 32mm (custom made for you) like Hall does. That's the most you should close them down. Personally I think thats a waste of carburetors.
I'd recommend useing the stock 37mm and go up as you feel. 42mm will change the entire nature of the carb and engine and move the torque peak up.
You could prove that you lost torque by that move but not by me.
A 42mm choke engine means that you flat out whale on it, no holds barred.
If you assemble all the parts we suggested, can bolt the thing together, and adjust the linkage with the unisync then you really don't need much help from me. You have been granted the knowledge of the ages, I certainly don't know much more about them.
I do recommend that you do use a manifold with the center pivot tower like Hall makes for the Pantera. It works great with the Pantera's stock pull throttle cable.
The side pivot would be for a C in another chassis like the Mustang. A lot of these manifolds are modified Hall manifolds. The Mustang guys like to mill the tower out and grind Hall Pantera off of it.
Inglese Inductions is right near us in CT. His prices on the parts you need are as good as anyone else and he's got everything that you need.
Also, count on needing the hottest ignition you can put in the car. There is just a "little" tendancy to foul the plugs.
As far as tuning your car? With all due respect, I'm way over my head with what I've got already.
With any luck I should be done with my stuff by the next millenium... hopefully.
I'm only on the Net 'cause it's my form of group therapy ( and cheaper).
You can email me at hammer99@erols.com.
Me personally, I don't see any point in a hydraulic lifter CJ with Webers. They are for performance. You run a solid lifter, triple valve spring, titanium valves, high compression engine (rev limiter is a great idea incidentally). I don't agree with anyone who puts them on JUST for looks. That's rediculous. That's like buying a nuclear device because you like the black paint on it.
Webers aren't necessarily faster off the line, but they are better then anything I have ever driven coming out of a turn and they play over 100 like...well you have to experience that to believe it. I rember putting 10 lengths on a supercharged 66 GT350 and I was waiting for him.
I got a glimse of him beating the steering wheel with both hands to make it go faster... but back to your questions.
The 140 main is more representative to the size of the engine more then anything else. 289's take 125/215's. It will run on a box stock CJ cleanly. You can idle them down to a 125 m (with proportionate air corrector) and pretty much be limited to about 5500 rpm like a rev limiter. The F5 would stay the same. You coud use 65 idles on that one also.
You also need to get a unisync. You can't work without them. Idle screws should be between 1/2 turn and 3/4 turn out. I like about 5/8.
The size of the chokes is more signifigant to your useage and capabilaty of the engine then anything.
You can use 32mm (custom made for you) like Hall does. That's the most you should close them down. Personally I think thats a waste of carburetors.
I'd recommend useing the stock 37mm and go up as you feel. 42mm will change the entire nature of the carb and engine and move the torque peak up.
You could prove that you lost torque by that move but not by me.
A 42mm choke engine means that you flat out whale on it, no holds barred.
If you assemble all the parts we suggested, can bolt the thing together, and adjust the linkage with the unisync then you really don't need much help from me. You have been granted the knowledge of the ages, I certainly don't know much more about them.
I do recommend that you do use a manifold with the center pivot tower like Hall makes for the Pantera. It works great with the Pantera's stock pull throttle cable.
The side pivot would be for a C in another chassis like the Mustang. A lot of these manifolds are modified Hall manifolds. The Mustang guys like to mill the tower out and grind Hall Pantera off of it.
Inglese Inductions is right near us in CT. His prices on the parts you need are as good as anyone else and he's got everything that you need.
Also, count on needing the hottest ignition you can put in the car. There is just a "little" tendancy to foul the plugs.
As far as tuning your car? With all due respect, I'm way over my head with what I've got already.
With any luck I should be done with my stuff by the next millenium... hopefully.
I'm only on the Net 'cause it's my form of group therapy ( and cheaper).
Oh come on. Here is a kit that fixes everyone of those problems you guys are complaining about. Just buy this kit, install it, and all your headaches are over. You can thank me later.
http://www.racetep.com/weber/weberfi.html
http://www.racetep.com/weber/weberfi.html
Who's complaining?
Incidentally, that is an IDF system. There is no IDF manifold for a 351c and the IDA's and the IDF's don't interchange. You are missing the entire point of Webers and maybe even the Pantera I think.
If there was a computer controlled induction system on a Pantera at LeManns in 73 then maybe I'd run it now. But there wasn't.
If there was a computer controlled induction system on a Pantera at LeManns in 73 then maybe I'd run it now. But there wasn't.
Oh well, here I thought you guys were complaining about what a pain they were to keep adjusted. I was just trying to help you out. I still have my eye on those Hilborns. They may have not been on Panteras back in the day, but they were sure on a lot of Can-Am cars and such.
I know a lot of Cobra guys are going throttle bodies that look like Holleys so that it looks like old school but performs like new school. Which I think is my point. Why put up with old school pain in the ass stuff when you can have something that looks like it is from the seventies, but is chock full of the latest go fast like a Tiger but start and act like a kitten most of the time goodies????
I know a lot of Cobra guys are going throttle bodies that look like Holleys so that it looks like old school but performs like new school. Which I think is my point. Why put up with old school pain in the ass stuff when you can have something that looks like it is from the seventies, but is chock full of the latest go fast like a Tiger but start and act like a kitten most of the time goodies????
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I don't agree with anyone who puts them on JUST for looks. That's rediculous.
The hell I can't, I admit Webers don't make sense in many respects but I want to build a car that represents the enthusiesm of an erra same as you not wanting to put FI when they raced Lemans with Webers. I am willing to pull the wrenches and learn to configure them drive them and make them run. I already have my set. If everything is configured wrong, well then I will just start over again. This is why we get into the hobby because things apeal to us and they arn't always for the right reason.
Gary
The point of jumping out of a plane at 10,000 feet is so no one hears you scream. It's the rush that you feel when the chute finally opens.
What's the point of turning a key, having the engine fire flawlessly, time after time after time after time? That's pretty boring isn't it?
You need to feel the anxiaty of will they explode this time, will they catch this time, that's the rush. It's a spiritual thing.
It's the reason we wear Depends!
What's the point of turning a key, having the engine fire flawlessly, time after time after time after time? That's pretty boring isn't it?
You need to feel the anxiaty of will they explode this time, will they catch this time, that's the rush. It's a spiritual thing.
It's the reason we wear Depends!
Uhm,
I have never jumped out of my plane. The passengers don't know how to fly!
Gary
I have never jumped out of my plane. The passengers don't know how to fly!
Gary
Gary I can recommend Kava-kava, it's really great.quote:Originally posted by comp2:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I don't agree with anyone who puts them on JUST for looks. That's rediculous.
The hell I can't, I admit Webers don't make sense in many respects but I want to build a car that represents the enthusiesm of an erra same as you not wanting to put FI when they raced Lemans with Webers. I am willing to pull the wrenches and learn to configure them drive them and make them run. I already have my set. If everything is configured wrong, well then I will just start over again. This is why we get into the hobby because things apeal to us and they arn't always for the right reason.
Gary
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
Uhm,
I have never jumped out of my plane. The passengers don't know how to fly!
Gary
There's always time to learn.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
There is no IDF manifold for a 351c and the IDA's and the IDF's don't interchange.
Technically Doug, that is wrong, there are at least 2 IDF manifolds that I know of. The first, mfd by Redline of Australia, sits the carbs too high to fit under the engine screen, but is readily available. Its designed for 2V heads. It has a unique plenum incorporated into the lifter valley to act as a vacuum tank.
The second, mfd by Cain of Australia, sits the carbs much lower. Not sure which size ports it has, always assumed they were 2V ports. This manifold is out of production & very hard to find. I've been looking for one. If I could find it, I would probably give Webers a go.
There is a 3rd IDF manifold I have seen on a Pantera GT5-S in Europe, belonging to Kjell Iseborn. I have no info regarding that manifold.
THe IDA is a racing carb, it has an idle circuit & a main circuit, no intermediate circuit, hence the flat spot Dave referred to, hence their fussy nature. The IDF is a street carb, it has an intermediate circuit and is not nearly so fussy. They are also shorter, to fit under the engine screen, and air filters are readily available.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
If there was a computer controlled induction system on a Pantera at LeManns in 73 then maybe I'd run it now. But there wasn't.
Like you wrote before, they are a religion. Some religious folks walk on coals & broken glass, sleep on beds of nails, willingly!
He, he, he ..........
Your friend on the DTBB, George
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Yes George, I think that I said it was a race carb. But the cause of the transition problem in the IDA is as I described. The third transition fixes nothing in this set up. Not with an F5 main tube.
I know that the IDF is a better application for the street. I have not tried them.
When I had to make my decision on the manifold last May, there was only one manifold available for my A3's or even the iron 4v (that's two, yes I know, but who's counting). Technically you are wrong too. There is a Hilman-Moody manifold. It appears to be the first of the first. There is a Detomaso manifold which appears to be a copy of the H_M. (don't ask about that one, you don't want to know) The Hall manifold is a copy of the Detomaso, but beefed up.
There were no adaptors available from Red-line or Inglese at the time of decision. Did I check with Australian Yellow Pages, no, sorry I didn't.
I am not being argumentative here about anything. I refer to what former President Clinton once said, "it all depends on what is is"
I know that the IDF is a better application for the street. I have not tried them.
When I had to make my decision on the manifold last May, there was only one manifold available for my A3's or even the iron 4v (that's two, yes I know, but who's counting). Technically you are wrong too. There is a Hilman-Moody manifold. It appears to be the first of the first. There is a Detomaso manifold which appears to be a copy of the H_M. (don't ask about that one, you don't want to know) The Hall manifold is a copy of the Detomaso, but beefed up.
There were no adaptors available from Red-line or Inglese at the time of decision. Did I check with Australian Yellow Pages, no, sorry I didn't.
I am not being argumentative here about anything. I refer to what former President Clinton once said, "it all depends on what is is"
OK OK OK we are getting off the technical subject again !!! LOL GEORGE ???????
I got Whiplash and PD to help me here ..... come on we were on a roll talking shop. I leave for the night and now we are crying and complaining again. LOL This was Tech talk.
Stop wining and complaining about practical. I dont drive my PANTERA to work ITS NOT PRACTICAL. I drive it to the grocery store !! LOL
I'm looking foward to this rush they all talk about throttle responce ??? I'm willing to sacrifice here.
The last time I made a 100 mph pass down my street I almost ran over DMX ( the vulgar Rapper on the radio ) . You had to be there. It was 12:00 at night and the PANTERA was roaring down an old country road and I came around the bend and all you seen in the rear view mirror was hats, dogs, leashes, shirts ...jumping in the bushes. that was a big RUSH ! ... yea like jumping out of a plane at 10k feet and no one hears you scream..... YEA THATS IT !!! Ok I have to smack myself and go back to work.
Ron
I got Whiplash and PD to help me here ..... come on we were on a roll talking shop. I leave for the night and now we are crying and complaining again. LOL This was Tech talk.
Stop wining and complaining about practical. I dont drive my PANTERA to work ITS NOT PRACTICAL. I drive it to the grocery store !! LOL
I'm looking foward to this rush they all talk about throttle responce ??? I'm willing to sacrifice here.
The last time I made a 100 mph pass down my street I almost ran over DMX ( the vulgar Rapper on the radio ) . You had to be there. It was 12:00 at night and the PANTERA was roaring down an old country road and I came around the bend and all you seen in the rear view mirror was hats, dogs, leashes, shirts ...jumping in the bushes. that was a big RUSH ! ... yea like jumping out of a plane at 10k feet and no one hears you scream..... YEA THATS IT !!! Ok I have to smack myself and go back to work.
Ron
Patience ACCobra, all good things come to he who waits. When you come over to the Weber side you will understand.
George, do own those manifolds or just the pictures?
What's the point of putting all that carburetion on 2v heads. They are very, very, not good.
George, do own those manifolds or just the pictures?
What's the point of putting all that carburetion on 2v heads. They are very, very, not good.
Oh, got another after thought. I remember when Inglese built the Chevy SB Weber manifold. It has a center plenum like this one pictured here. He immediately took it to the dyno and immediately melted the valves on the heads with it. It seems that the plenum caused the engine to suddenly lean out under load and self destructed the engine.
I don't know if that was ever fixed but I do recall that manifold with a bih * next to it stating that it was "for show only".
It looks a lot like this thing here does.
I don't know if that was ever fixed but I do recall that manifold with a bih * next to it stating that it was "for show only".
It looks a lot like this thing here does.
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
I dont drive my PANTERA to work ITS NOT PRACTICAL. LOL Ron
Every Pantera owner is different, and has different ideas of how to use his or her Pantera. There is room enough for everybody in our community if we respect each others differences. I do drive my Pantera to work. Eventually I'll drive it all over North America and try to meet each of you.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
George, do own those manifolds or just the pictures?.
I did own the Redline manifold in the picture, but sold it. I do not own a Cain manifold, but I am in the market for one if anybody knows where I might find one.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
What's the point of putting all that carburetion on 2v heads. They are very, very, not good.
The Aussies favor 2V heads for several reasons, one being they were more plentiful in their country, the 4V heads were scarce. All the 4V motors in Australia were sourced from the US, so when Cleveland production ceased in the US, the supply of 4V motors in Australia also ceased. However, the Aussies were quite happy with 2V heads, because with bigger valves & porting, they can support 450 to 500 bhp, which isn't bad. I would rather have a 2V Cleveland head to work with, than a SBC or Windsor Ford head, any day of the week. The 2V heads are also advantageous for heavier vehicles, towing, higher rear end gearing, automatic transmissions with low stall speed converters, etc. Frankly, if you are not going to rev a standard displacement Cleveland beyond 6000 rpm, there is little need for the 4V head.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
quote:Frankly, if you are not going to rev a standard displacement Cleveland beyond 6000 rpm, there is little need for the 4V head.
AAAAHHHAAAA!! George, I knew I could get you to start thinking like me. All I had to do was keep slowly and carefully working on you until one day, Viola!!! Revs is where a Cleveland really shines. Let those heads breath. 1300 cfm carbs??? No problem, just up the revs to match.
Redline Performance is part of Hardiman Auto in Sydney;
Their website at http://www.redlineauto.com.au lists the manifold as: PART NO. 12-351/12-101 4 X 48 IDF Weber manifold to suit Ford 302-351C 2V or 4V cylinder heads, manifold ports are 2V size. P/No.12-351 is manifold valley section; 12-101 is 4 carburettor manifold adaptors.
LINKAGE KIT P/NO. 42-31
Ahhh Sydney....brings back memories of my 3 years in Newcastle (2 hrs North of Sydney). What I'd give to exchange the current Reno 19F for the Aussie summer right now. The P car would be out and I'd be cruising those twisty winding little roads.. albeit on the wrong side
Their website at http://www.redlineauto.com.au lists the manifold as: PART NO. 12-351/12-101 4 X 48 IDF Weber manifold to suit Ford 302-351C 2V or 4V cylinder heads, manifold ports are 2V size. P/No.12-351 is manifold valley section; 12-101 is 4 carburettor manifold adaptors.
LINKAGE KIT P/NO. 42-31
Ahhh Sydney....brings back memories of my 3 years in Newcastle (2 hrs North of Sydney). What I'd give to exchange the current Reno 19F for the Aussie summer right now. The P car would be out and I'd be cruising those twisty winding little roads.. albeit on the wrong side
Well take a peek at what I just found;
Carbs Unlimited sell a complete 4x48 IDF kit for the 351C at $3295.
http://www.carburetion.com/weber/wildv8.asp
There you go George...no excuse now
Carbs Unlimited sell a complete 4x48 IDF kit for the 351C at $3295.
http://www.carburetion.com/weber/wildv8.asp
There you go George...no excuse now
quote:Originally posted by Joules5:
Well take a peek at what I just found;
Carbs Unlimited sell a complete 4x48 IDF kit for the 351C at $3295.
http://www.carburetion.com/weber/wildv8.asp
There you go George...no excuse now
Good find Joules. That gold velocity stacks just set them off real pretty like. That is less money than I thought they would be too.
Interesting finds, all of you. Blue Thunder is manufacturering aluminum spacers to use 302 manifolds on 351 blocks.
Both of these sites are listing the manifolds as 302-351 applications.
There aren't a lot of details given or detailed pictures available.
I am suspicious that these are 302 IDF manifolds with adaptor plates added to them and then become 351 intakes.
That isn't what the pictures are showing but I'm suspicious by nature so don't shoot me if I'm wrong. The 302 IDF manifold has been around for more then a couple of years now. That I knew about. This is the first I've heard of a dedicated 351c IDF manifold.
I will say for those of you who insist on running a 351w, Lord knows why, that the Blue Thunder 302 2x4 manifold with spacer plates would be an outrageous set up on your Pantera and it would run two Holleys, not eight of these hungry, tempermental, ungrateful spagetti bender specials. Sorry, it just came over me...I don't understand why?
Both of these sites are listing the manifolds as 302-351 applications.
There aren't a lot of details given or detailed pictures available.
I am suspicious that these are 302 IDF manifolds with adaptor plates added to them and then become 351 intakes.
That isn't what the pictures are showing but I'm suspicious by nature so don't shoot me if I'm wrong. The 302 IDF manifold has been around for more then a couple of years now. That I knew about. This is the first I've heard of a dedicated 351c IDF manifold.
I will say for those of you who insist on running a 351w, Lord knows why, that the Blue Thunder 302 2x4 manifold with spacer plates would be an outrageous set up on your Pantera and it would run two Holleys, not eight of these hungry, tempermental, ungrateful spagetti bender specials. Sorry, it just came over me...I don't understand why?
Mr. Doug we ain't trying to get your goat. We is just bench racing. None of us can actually afford these things, we are just lusting after them. We bench race because we are too poor to do the real thing.
At least speaking for myself, I am just a lot of hot air, who is just greatfull he was able to cough up enough dogh to get a Pantera in the first place.
At least speaking for myself, I am just a lot of hot air, who is just greatfull he was able to cough up enough dogh to get a Pantera in the first place.
Guys,
those 351C IDF kits are using the Redline manifold, the one I earlier explained I had already owned & sold because it sat the IDF carbs too high for my tastes.
I looked into the situation a few years back, the Redline manifold is the ONLY Weber manifold available new at this time that matches the IDF carb to a Cleveland motor.
It believe it to be the only manifold available NEW that matches any Weber carb to the 351C. I believe Inglese refurbishes used Hall manifolds for their Cleveland applications.
I purchased the Redline manifold new from Hardiman in Oz, later sold it at 1/2 price to a fellow Pantera owner. The manifold has a 2V size port, but there is enough excess material around each port to allow it to seal up against a 4V port.
Like I wrote, I'm in the market for the Cain manifold, or the manifold Kjell Iseborn is running. I want to keep everything under the engine screen.
Below is a few more pics of the Redline manifold. I no longer own this manifold, so please don't ask if its for sale.
Doug you're wrong about the spacers, but I won't shoot you. lol..........
George
those 351C IDF kits are using the Redline manifold, the one I earlier explained I had already owned & sold because it sat the IDF carbs too high for my tastes.
I looked into the situation a few years back, the Redline manifold is the ONLY Weber manifold available new at this time that matches the IDF carb to a Cleveland motor.
It believe it to be the only manifold available NEW that matches any Weber carb to the 351C. I believe Inglese refurbishes used Hall manifolds for their Cleveland applications.
I purchased the Redline manifold new from Hardiman in Oz, later sold it at 1/2 price to a fellow Pantera owner. The manifold has a 2V size port, but there is enough excess material around each port to allow it to seal up against a 4V port.
Like I wrote, I'm in the market for the Cain manifold, or the manifold Kjell Iseborn is running. I want to keep everything under the engine screen.
Below is a few more pics of the Redline manifold. I no longer own this manifold, so please don't ask if its for sale.
Doug you're wrong about the spacers, but I won't shoot you. lol..........
George
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George - Kelly Coffield is casting is IR runner manifolds that fir under the deck. Might you consider one of those?
I have a deposit on one for my 9.5 deck Clevor, but I think he can make one for 9.2 deck heights as well.
The whole thing including air filters will fit under the engine screen.
I have a deposit on one for my 9.5 deck Clevor, but I think he can make one for 9.2 deck heights as well.
The whole thing including air filters will fit under the engine screen.
Chris, as far as I know, Kelly's stuff has all been designed for the 48 IDA. I have no interest in running the IDA carbs, or IR fuel injection. (I don't sleep on a bed of nails either! lol....)
Kelly reads the BB, if I'm wrong Kelly, let me know.
George
Kelly reads the BB, if I'm wrong Kelly, let me know.
George
GEORGE,
" I believe Inglese refurbishes used Hall manifolds for their Cleveland applications." Exactly right George !
I pinpointed it today that is exactly what I have..a Hall manifold with Inglese 48IDA's how do I know that...the venturi's, jets ET's have the part #'s grinded off ... you know that old school philosphy of keeping your job / customers .... and my set up has spacers on one side and reverse spacers on the other which, was only mentioned .. I guess it positions the throttle valves to the inside allowing the fuel/air flow smoother .. OK I'm holding back saying this but......here goes !!!!! and stops the flat spot.... OOOOOOOOOOOWWW I did it. dont shoot me its what they told me. Personally I like the flat spot I really doooooooo !! LOL
No really and the carbs being reversed on one side also has a unique linkage where the linkage is pulling to the driver side both together and not oposite like Hall set up. Also the fuel distribution is on the outside.
Who knows all in theory .... I listen and learn. Inglese is what I think the closest professional I can go to for parts. Saturday I have an appointment to discuss this situation. So maybe here we all live and learn.
" I believe Inglese refurbishes used Hall manifolds for their Cleveland applications." Exactly right George !
I pinpointed it today that is exactly what I have..a Hall manifold with Inglese 48IDA's how do I know that...the venturi's, jets ET's have the part #'s grinded off ... you know that old school philosphy of keeping your job / customers .... and my set up has spacers on one side and reverse spacers on the other which, was only mentioned .. I guess it positions the throttle valves to the inside allowing the fuel/air flow smoother .. OK I'm holding back saying this but......here goes !!!!! and stops the flat spot.... OOOOOOOOOOOWWW I did it. dont shoot me its what they told me. Personally I like the flat spot I really doooooooo !! LOL
No really and the carbs being reversed on one side also has a unique linkage where the linkage is pulling to the driver side both together and not oposite like Hall set up. Also the fuel distribution is on the outside.
Who knows all in theory .... I listen and learn. Inglese is what I think the closest professional I can go to for parts. Saturday I have an appointment to discuss this situation. So maybe here we all live and learn.
You need to remember that you need space over the top of these carbs to make them work. I have run shortened IDA's and they ran fine that way. They were shortened to get space above them. Just like on the Cobra Daytonna Coupes. I don't know if you actually can fit an IDF under the rear deck without shortening it. I thought about that with the IDA's but I didn't think that there would be enough room under the deck on the last two stacks.
That short Australian manifold might make that possible on the Pantera. If you find one, don't think it'll be cheap. The Falconer-Dunn manifold is pretty low. It's the one they said they never made. I never seen one of those for sale.
The 427 Fords have an IDA intake which has the carb bases angle milled 10 degrees so that the two banks tilt towards the center. You can conceivably do that on a C. That could give you just enough room on the back two stacks, maybe. You might have more room on a W. Even though they are 9.5 blocks, the carb pads are lower then Halls, a lot lower.
You do realize the one of the benefits to the IDA's is that they are ram tubes as well?
The runners on the Hall manifold I have flow 380 cfm each.
Are you saying that you can't get a Hall manifold any more?
DeTom, do you think you guys could actually piss me off? Who's playing with who? Grasshopper!
Redline is listing the same part number for the 302-351 there George. I don't beleive anyones going to tool up to sell 100 manifolds but lets not be logical about this. All of these head companies tooled up Cleveland heads to sell what, 50 sets? Nobody plays with Clevelands anymore and if they do, they won't pay. They are too cheap. Who's going to pay $2500 for a set of Brodix bare heads? That's aftermarket. Aftermarket is crap. You have to give away factory performance parts and then the guy bitches about IT'S DIRTY. The last set of A3 heads went for $1500 WITH A MANIFOLD on ebay. Common, who's going to race a Pantera? It only gets 10mpg on the street, and you gotta use hightest!
That short Australian manifold might make that possible on the Pantera. If you find one, don't think it'll be cheap. The Falconer-Dunn manifold is pretty low. It's the one they said they never made. I never seen one of those for sale.
The 427 Fords have an IDA intake which has the carb bases angle milled 10 degrees so that the two banks tilt towards the center. You can conceivably do that on a C. That could give you just enough room on the back two stacks, maybe. You might have more room on a W. Even though they are 9.5 blocks, the carb pads are lower then Halls, a lot lower.
You do realize the one of the benefits to the IDA's is that they are ram tubes as well?
The runners on the Hall manifold I have flow 380 cfm each.
Are you saying that you can't get a Hall manifold any more?
DeTom, do you think you guys could actually piss me off? Who's playing with who? Grasshopper!
Redline is listing the same part number for the 302-351 there George. I don't beleive anyones going to tool up to sell 100 manifolds but lets not be logical about this. All of these head companies tooled up Cleveland heads to sell what, 50 sets? Nobody plays with Clevelands anymore and if they do, they won't pay. They are too cheap. Who's going to pay $2500 for a set of Brodix bare heads? That's aftermarket. Aftermarket is crap. You have to give away factory performance parts and then the guy bitches about IT'S DIRTY. The last set of A3 heads went for $1500 WITH A MANIFOLD on ebay. Common, who's going to race a Pantera? It only gets 10mpg on the street, and you gotta use hightest!
Doug, I tried keeping up with you on that one & ran out of breath! lol......
Kava-kava time?
Your friend on the DTBB, George
Kava-kava time?
Your friend on the DTBB, George
I was just showing DeTom how it's done, Ahh, Kava-kava is good.
Kave-kave?? Fruit????
AC, may I call you AC? The spacers are to keep the carbs all facing the same way. It makes the throttle linkage easier to make work correctly.
I added those to my first set. My current set doesn't have those.
My first set wasn't on the Pantera so the linkage worked differently and tended to twist. It couldn't use the center pivot. The reversal kit is Inglese's. For ultimate performance it puts one bank of carbs idle tip in on the wrong side of the port runner.
The center pivot and the Hall set up are the way to go on thePantera I think.
Get youself a set of numered drills. They will help you identify the jets. You will need a metric to English conversion chart also.
You may as well get yourself one of those partitioned boxes so that you can keep the jets sorted.
When Inglese actually owned the business in the early 80's he crried around a box that when you opened it looked like Yankee Stadium. He liked to "impress" people. You won't need anything that large.
I added those to my first set. My current set doesn't have those.
My first set wasn't on the Pantera so the linkage worked differently and tended to twist. It couldn't use the center pivot. The reversal kit is Inglese's. For ultimate performance it puts one bank of carbs idle tip in on the wrong side of the port runner.
The center pivot and the Hall set up are the way to go on thePantera I think.
Get youself a set of numered drills. They will help you identify the jets. You will need a metric to English conversion chart also.
You may as well get yourself one of those partitioned boxes so that you can keep the jets sorted.
When Inglese actually owned the business in the early 80's he crried around a box that when you opened it looked like Yankee Stadium. He liked to "impress" people. You won't need anything that large.
PD - Your right I was mistaken..... mine are both facing the same way with one of the fuel lines in the center.... The manifold puts the opposite which is for better perfromance and not to facilitate the linkage. The spacers on mine are coming off and the center PANTERA linkage will be added. The Hall linkage they say makes it so the stock cable can be used.
I hear you on the jets... I will thanks for the advise... I learned with the race cars... I bought a big HOLLEY kit and used maybe 10% of it... I was thinking to get my baseline lets say starting point then buy a few different items up and down on the scale.
Yes I heard he was a unique individual.
I hear you on the jets... I will thanks for the advise... I learned with the race cars... I bought a big HOLLEY kit and used maybe 10% of it... I was thinking to get my baseline lets say starting point then buy a few different items up and down on the scale.
Yes I heard he was a unique individual.
As far as needing more jetting, that's up to you. I will tell you that the engine will continue to respond powerwise to larger and large mains.
I have tested them all the way up to 195 mains.
I ran out of air corrector sizes at that point. I went no further.
What you will notice as you go larger is that the engine will smoke more and more as you get larger.
I have a set of 170 mains that you can't run in the garage.
I would predict that you will settle on the 140's.
Accellerator jets also can be closed down quite a bit without effecting performance. I had them down to .40. This would reduce the amount of cylinder washing and would reduce the black cloud you get when you nail the throttle.
The problem is it makes it very difficult to start the car cold. That made it easy to foul the plugs starting up from flooding the engine by over pumping. I know that sound contradictory but it isn't if you think about it.
Also, don't look down the stacks when you are cranking the engine unless you like to look surprized. Did you ever notice how when someone has no eyebrows they look surprized?
Start the car at night if you like a light show. My kids used to charge thier friends a quarter to watch me start the car at night. It looks like you are firing up a nitro car.
I have tested them all the way up to 195 mains.
I ran out of air corrector sizes at that point. I went no further.
What you will notice as you go larger is that the engine will smoke more and more as you get larger.
I have a set of 170 mains that you can't run in the garage.
I would predict that you will settle on the 140's.
Accellerator jets also can be closed down quite a bit without effecting performance. I had them down to .40. This would reduce the amount of cylinder washing and would reduce the black cloud you get when you nail the throttle.
The problem is it makes it very difficult to start the car cold. That made it easy to foul the plugs starting up from flooding the engine by over pumping. I know that sound contradictory but it isn't if you think about it.
Also, don't look down the stacks when you are cranking the engine unless you like to look surprized. Did you ever notice how when someone has no eyebrows they look surprized?
Start the car at night if you like a light show. My kids used to charge thier friends a quarter to watch me start the car at night. It looks like you are firing up a nitro car.
SWEEEEEET,
But, I already got one o' them notched/cut out decklids, need somethin' to fill the void.
Best so far is a 2" carb spacer block and one o them 4" tall K&N chrome oval air filters. But it kills all rear vision and ain't nowhere near as nice lookin' or soundin' as Webers.
But, I already got one o' them notched/cut out decklids, need somethin' to fill the void.
Best so far is a 2" carb spacer block and one o them 4" tall K&N chrome oval air filters. But it kills all rear vision and ain't nowhere near as nice lookin' or soundin' as Webers.
Oh, the notched deck lid sounds nice, any one willing to part with one. I would rather not cut mine, I was thinking a fiberglass one or one already cut.
Ron
Ron
I think that few used rear decks are going to be perfect. All of them have type of problem.
I think that can cut out for the Webers and save the pieces so they can be put back in the future.
If you could find a cut lid locally and go an pick it up that would make sense. If you have to buy one and have it shipped to you that's an entire different thing.
There was (is) a Pantera racer near here in CT that made a fiberglass rear deck. It was a while ago but I seem to remember that he would sell me one for around $800. I never did see the quality of the piece or make the deal. It isn't that easy to make just a couple of high quality fiberglass items. They are often porous, fragile and warp easy.
The guy might even be a member. I'll try to remember his name. I can picture his face, so that means there is hope.
I used the proper saber saw blade, cut it out neatly and saved the piece. I know that I can reattach the piece if I need to.
I suspect that if I need to sell the Pantera in the future that the Webers will be a selling point to the car. I don't seriously believe that anyone would be looking at the practicality of the car with or without Webers.
Why don't you guys place a wanted ad on PI.
Also try Crayon47 on ebay. It appears that he is parting out more then one Pantera. He is in RI.
I think that can cut out for the Webers and save the pieces so they can be put back in the future.
If you could find a cut lid locally and go an pick it up that would make sense. If you have to buy one and have it shipped to you that's an entire different thing.
There was (is) a Pantera racer near here in CT that made a fiberglass rear deck. It was a while ago but I seem to remember that he would sell me one for around $800. I never did see the quality of the piece or make the deal. It isn't that easy to make just a couple of high quality fiberglass items. They are often porous, fragile and warp easy.
The guy might even be a member. I'll try to remember his name. I can picture his face, so that means there is hope.
I used the proper saber saw blade, cut it out neatly and saved the piece. I know that I can reattach the piece if I need to.
I suspect that if I need to sell the Pantera in the future that the Webers will be a selling point to the car. I don't seriously believe that anyone would be looking at the practicality of the car with or without Webers.
Why don't you guys place a wanted ad on PI.
Also try Crayon47 on ebay. It appears that he is parting out more then one Pantera. He is in RI.
Doug,
Was away fr a few days ..I was up to my arm pits working on baby P.... stripped down the webers and they are basically exactly how they come from the factory specs. I wrote it down but the paper is out in the barn. have the manifold and body of carbs going to glass bead them and high temp clear them. then gasket kith new specs... oh yea where did we leave off with that....what was the recommended starting point. Should I go back to COMP CAMS and ask them about specs on a weber cam. i called inglese but not crazy about them. sorry smack me if you want but i~m a little confused putting numbers with the names of these 7 parts that are completely adjustable. But i~ll get it and when i do .....LOL
Was away fr a few days ..I was up to my arm pits working on baby P.... stripped down the webers and they are basically exactly how they come from the factory specs. I wrote it down but the paper is out in the barn. have the manifold and body of carbs going to glass bead them and high temp clear them. then gasket kith new specs... oh yea where did we leave off with that....what was the recommended starting point. Should I go back to COMP CAMS and ask them about specs on a weber cam. i called inglese but not crazy about them. sorry smack me if you want but i~m a little confused putting numbers with the names of these 7 parts that are completely adjustable. But i~ll get it and when i do .....LOL
Virtually everything is changeable in the carbs.
If they are stock they should be: chokes 37mm (aka auxilliary venturi), idle jet 70F10 (idle jet holder-there's only one and you got it), main fuel is probably 1.25mm (we call it a 125), air corrector is probalby 1.35, emullsion tube is a F11, pump jet is a .50.
What I recommend you get is the following; leave the chokes alome, leave them at 37mm; get 1.40 fuel jets, 1.60 air correctors, F5 tubes, .80 or even 1.0 pump jets, high pressure fuel inlet valves, asbestos heat insulating base gaskets.
How old are the carbs? Webers aren't like Holleys. They virtually have no gaskets to speak of to leak. The main gasket is paper but rarely needs to be replaced. There are ball bearings on the throttle shafts that have a leather seal on them. If the carbs are not new then you need to remove the shaft nylock nuts, carefully remove the slat washers (use a dental pick), even move carefully peel back the leather seals but don't remove them. Load your little grease gun up and use the needle tip and pack the bearing with grease. Make sure that the throttle shafts work free and easy and snap closed.verify at this point that they open completely, 90 with no binding. I have seen more then a few IDA's with twisted throttle shafts. It's best to find out now if you have one. Put the flat washers back on and snug the nuts on gentally.
Theere is a guy on ebay that I get my jets and emulsion tubes from.
He is in Italy and go by the name of Alfaparts. Do an ebay advanced search for sellers using that name and you will find him. His name is Garielle (like the Angel). He doesn't deal in IDA parts specifically, they are DCOE parts.
He sells the jets for $2.50 each instead of $5 each like here. I think I paid $20 for the set of 8 F5 emulsion tubes. Treat him politely he is a gentlemen.
Chokes are harder to come buy. The only other size you may want to try are 42mm on the street. Of course if you want to seriously go racing 44 or 45mm are what you want. You won't be happy on the street with those.
You can get the gaskets from a vendor on www.the samba.com. It is a VW website. I don't rember his name at the momemt, but he is a California type surfer dude. The are called "glass ball" inlet valves. They are like $30 or $40 for the set.
You really don't need the "rebuild kits" for the carbs. Only buy one at a time as you need them.
If they are stock they should be: chokes 37mm (aka auxilliary venturi), idle jet 70F10 (idle jet holder-there's only one and you got it), main fuel is probably 1.25mm (we call it a 125), air corrector is probalby 1.35, emullsion tube is a F11, pump jet is a .50.
What I recommend you get is the following; leave the chokes alome, leave them at 37mm; get 1.40 fuel jets, 1.60 air correctors, F5 tubes, .80 or even 1.0 pump jets, high pressure fuel inlet valves, asbestos heat insulating base gaskets.
How old are the carbs? Webers aren't like Holleys. They virtually have no gaskets to speak of to leak. The main gasket is paper but rarely needs to be replaced. There are ball bearings on the throttle shafts that have a leather seal on them. If the carbs are not new then you need to remove the shaft nylock nuts, carefully remove the slat washers (use a dental pick), even move carefully peel back the leather seals but don't remove them. Load your little grease gun up and use the needle tip and pack the bearing with grease. Make sure that the throttle shafts work free and easy and snap closed.verify at this point that they open completely, 90 with no binding. I have seen more then a few IDA's with twisted throttle shafts. It's best to find out now if you have one. Put the flat washers back on and snug the nuts on gentally.
Theere is a guy on ebay that I get my jets and emulsion tubes from.
He is in Italy and go by the name of Alfaparts. Do an ebay advanced search for sellers using that name and you will find him. His name is Garielle (like the Angel). He doesn't deal in IDA parts specifically, they are DCOE parts.
He sells the jets for $2.50 each instead of $5 each like here. I think I paid $20 for the set of 8 F5 emulsion tubes. Treat him politely he is a gentlemen.
Chokes are harder to come buy. The only other size you may want to try are 42mm on the street. Of course if you want to seriously go racing 44 or 45mm are what you want. You won't be happy on the street with those.
You can get the gaskets from a vendor on www.the samba.com. It is a VW website. I don't rember his name at the momemt, but he is a California type surfer dude. The are called "glass ball" inlet valves. They are like $30 or $40 for the set.
You really don't need the "rebuild kits" for the carbs. Only buy one at a time as you need them.
Oh, forgot the cam. I doubt that any cam tech guy knows what a Weber cam is. Specifically you are looking for something with around a 246 to 251 duration at .050 with an overlap of roughly 28 to 40 degrees. Lift is the least important factor with a big valve Cleveland. Duration is more important. You don't need to be crazy. A solid lifter cam in the .525 to .550 range is plenty. Anthing more then that I think you are just beating up you valve train for little gain.
You are going to play with everything "a little", i.e., advance, idle screws, linkage, etc, but you are looking at an engine that idles well at 1,000 rpms and is very responsive off of idle. It's the "playing with it" where guys loose patience with it. Yes they change with the weather and yes sometimes it is tough to tell if that's all there is.
This is not a casual set up for people who want to look cool. This is very serious performance stuff run by the some of the best race teams there ever were.
You are going to play with everything "a little", i.e., advance, idle screws, linkage, etc, but you are looking at an engine that idles well at 1,000 rpms and is very responsive off of idle. It's the "playing with it" where guys loose patience with it. Yes they change with the weather and yes sometimes it is tough to tell if that's all there is.
This is not a casual set up for people who want to look cool. This is very serious performance stuff run by the some of the best race teams there ever were.
PD,
correct me if I am wrong, but don't you want to keep the rpm down as low as possible, like mine when the Idle was set at 1000 rpm, it was loading up at idle do to starting to enter the transition holes. when I got the idle down it clear it up.
What do you think.
Dennis
correct me if I am wrong, but don't you want to keep the rpm down as low as possible, like mine when the Idle was set at 1000 rpm, it was loading up at idle do to starting to enter the transition holes. when I got the idle down it clear it up.
What do you think.
Dennis
When you set the carb up on the bench, not on the car, you set the carb throttle plate on the transition slot. It really won't close anymore anyway.
You put them together and then sync the carbs running.
When you get any slack out of the linkage I find that on pump gas they want to idle in the 950 to 1000 rpm area.
People like Inglese will tell you to set the idle screws at 3/4 turn. I find that makes them load up just a little at idle. I try to get them as close to 1/2 turn as I can. They usually, for me wind up at about 5/8 turn. I'm sure that there are production tolerences on all of the IDA's. You will notice that the Unisync can show you two different vacuums on the same carb. You use the throat closest to the "mating linkage".
I run a vacuum advance on the distributor.
This all puts me at 1100 with vacuum idle.
Since all the linkage is "zeroed-in" I turn the distributor down a little to bring the idle rpm down.
I'm not saying that this is the only combination but it works for me with good tip in, reasonable idle, and good top end.
I personally think that the idle jet it "needs" is in between a 65 and a 70.
If you are running high compression, over 10.5:1, if you put in a tank of leaded racing gas, it will idle down a lot.
This is the entire issue with Webers of being "too variable". Everything effects them. In this sense you must consider them a "racing set-up" and be the Chief Mechanic and determine that today, this is the best they are going to run and leave it at that.
I used to have a picture of Jim Inglese hanging on the garage wall. Beneath that picture was a pile of fouled spark plugs. As I would pull the plugs out of the engine I would throw them at the picture and let them pile up. It was better then just drawing Devils horns, and blacking out his teeth, etc.
This was my form of Weber therapy. Now I have some kava-kava, but sometimes I throw darts at the target.
You put them together and then sync the carbs running.
When you get any slack out of the linkage I find that on pump gas they want to idle in the 950 to 1000 rpm area.
People like Inglese will tell you to set the idle screws at 3/4 turn. I find that makes them load up just a little at idle. I try to get them as close to 1/2 turn as I can. They usually, for me wind up at about 5/8 turn. I'm sure that there are production tolerences on all of the IDA's. You will notice that the Unisync can show you two different vacuums on the same carb. You use the throat closest to the "mating linkage".
I run a vacuum advance on the distributor.
This all puts me at 1100 with vacuum idle.
Since all the linkage is "zeroed-in" I turn the distributor down a little to bring the idle rpm down.
I'm not saying that this is the only combination but it works for me with good tip in, reasonable idle, and good top end.
I personally think that the idle jet it "needs" is in between a 65 and a 70.
If you are running high compression, over 10.5:1, if you put in a tank of leaded racing gas, it will idle down a lot.
This is the entire issue with Webers of being "too variable". Everything effects them. In this sense you must consider them a "racing set-up" and be the Chief Mechanic and determine that today, this is the best they are going to run and leave it at that.
I used to have a picture of Jim Inglese hanging on the garage wall. Beneath that picture was a pile of fouled spark plugs. As I would pull the plugs out of the engine I would throw them at the picture and let them pile up. It was better then just drawing Devils horns, and blacking out his teeth, etc.
This was my form of Weber therapy. Now I have some kava-kava, but sometimes I throw darts at the target.
Pd,
That is what I found I have used both 65 and 70 and right now I have the 65 in. I have it idling at about 750 rpm running good, I have 11:1 aditive and av gas. hehe I am HAPPY
Dennis
That is what I found I have used both 65 and 70 and right now I have the 65 in. I have it idling at about 750 rpm running good, I have 11:1 aditive and av gas. hehe I am HAPPY
Dennis
Sounds good. 750 is pretty hard for me to get on just pump gas. What pump jets did you use?
Panteradoug,
Thanks Soo much ..
I'm digesting this just gotta get all my papers together and put name to the real life parts then I will talk and understand, have not had enough time during the week to play with the car. I'm in the HEating business and this is my season to be jolly LOL.
Thanks Soo much ..
I'm digesting this just gotta get all my papers together and put name to the real life parts then I will talk and understand, have not had enough time during the week to play with the car. I'm in the HEating business and this is my season to be jolly LOL.
I'm an out of work lumberjack. I used to work in the Sahara Forest. I get a lot of free time this time of the year. I bought the Pantera 'cause I thought it would make a great little pick-up truck with it's rear deck and all.
Alfa1750 (on ebay)is David Gabrielle, the Italian Weber parts connection.
A Lumber Jack ??? LOL Where did ya learn webers on a Italian wood chipper ?? Like the one in Saprano's ?? LOL Yea I can see you staking wood on the deck lid.
Thanks for the tips... I'll check it out. I found 4 gasket kits for 10.00 each in argentina. it cant hurt to have alt sources.
Ron
Thanks for the tips... I'll check it out. I found 4 gasket kits for 10.00 each in argentina. it cant hurt to have alt sources.
Ron
Well I used to be able to stack wood there. I can't now because of the flames from the Webers.
Oh yeh, I forgot to tell you about Argentina, sorry.
Oh yeh, I forgot to tell you about Argentina, sorry.
PD what is the rpefered material for the thick spacers , seems they come in 4mm not sure of the material just yet. saturday I glass beed the carbs and intake. never got done last weekend, I went crazy with the wire wheel in the engine compartement and under the car.
The 351c I just had freshened up ( I did it becuase the oil pump jambed last year and broke the distr gear and damaged the cam, so I had a local engine builder do the heads and cam bearings. I put a new cam and lifters, HV oil pump with hP spring new oil pump shaft, HV oil pan. timing DR timing gears, alum water pump, Detomaso valve covers, this motor was just done out in Calif, before I bought the car. It had FT pistins with OC 4V heads. No ridge on the cylinder walls. My plan is freshen this up and keep the original motor and build another one. If I dont blow this to china the summer.) I have two new SVO blocks R302 & G351 and not sure what I want to build.
Oh back to the subject the cam that was put back in the motor was an exact replacement of what was taken out. I did this becuase they matched the springs. It was a mild hydralic cam. I think this was a HALL PANTERA replacement motor.
OK OK it takes me a little time to explain !!
COMP CAM FC-268H-10 Pt# 32-221-3 Hydralic
Gross lift 494
Duration @ .006 lift 268
Valve Timing @ .006 int 28 BTDC 60 ABDC
ext 68 BBDC 20 ATDC
These specs are for cam installed @ 106 intake Center line
Duration @.050 Int 219 exh 219
Lode Lift .286 .286
Lobe separation 110
Its not wild at all, the heads are on but I could pull them back off if you think a solid lifter cam is in line here. I would have to get the machine work done for crew in studs.
The reason I went this route is I'm determined to drive this car in the spring.
Ron
The 351c I just had freshened up ( I did it becuase the oil pump jambed last year and broke the distr gear and damaged the cam, so I had a local engine builder do the heads and cam bearings. I put a new cam and lifters, HV oil pump with hP spring new oil pump shaft, HV oil pan. timing DR timing gears, alum water pump, Detomaso valve covers, this motor was just done out in Calif, before I bought the car. It had FT pistins with OC 4V heads. No ridge on the cylinder walls. My plan is freshen this up and keep the original motor and build another one. If I dont blow this to china the summer.) I have two new SVO blocks R302 & G351 and not sure what I want to build.
Oh back to the subject the cam that was put back in the motor was an exact replacement of what was taken out. I did this becuase they matched the springs. It was a mild hydralic cam. I think this was a HALL PANTERA replacement motor.
OK OK it takes me a little time to explain !!
COMP CAM FC-268H-10 Pt# 32-221-3 Hydralic
Gross lift 494
Duration @ .006 lift 268
Valve Timing @ .006 int 28 BTDC 60 ABDC
ext 68 BBDC 20 ATDC
These specs are for cam installed @ 106 intake Center line
Duration @.050 Int 219 exh 219
Lode Lift .286 .286
Lobe separation 110
Its not wild at all, the heads are on but I could pull them back off if you think a solid lifter cam is in line here. I would have to get the machine work done for crew in studs.
The reason I went this route is I'm determined to drive this car in the spring.
Ron
I believe that the gaskets are an asbestos "alloy".
They are hinda hard but they have some crushabilaty to them. They aren't quite 1/4" thick, maybe 3/16".
The Webers will work with just about anything, or can be made to.
I didm't mean to be preaching to anyone about what a Weber engine should be. There are some pretty hot hydraulic cams. I've run them to 7000 with the proper valve springs. I don't like them because you don't get 100% of the lift you are supposed to because they work on oil pressure.
I understand your indecision on an engine. There are a lot of possibilities out there. For every combination you come up with, there seems to be a better one.
Keep in mind that the most expensive component by far to the drive train is the ZF. I don't pretend to be able to tell you how much power it will take. I do know that Ford ran the ZF behind the 289's in the GT40's. They were around 400hp but not a lot of torque. In 68 it was called a Gulf (after the sponser, Gulf Oil). They ran a Boss 302' at about 425hp but still not a lot of torque.
Ford built it's own transaxle for the GT40 427 Mark II's in '65, and it was a 4 speed using the internal components from the "top loader transmission". Those at most were 500hp, but made aa much torque.
I would think that should tell you something about the ZF's durabilaty or doubtabilaty. In other words, look out for a lotta cubes, you will break it.
A broken ZF is a very expensive proposition.
They are hinda hard but they have some crushabilaty to them. They aren't quite 1/4" thick, maybe 3/16".
The Webers will work with just about anything, or can be made to.
I didm't mean to be preaching to anyone about what a Weber engine should be. There are some pretty hot hydraulic cams. I've run them to 7000 with the proper valve springs. I don't like them because you don't get 100% of the lift you are supposed to because they work on oil pressure.
I understand your indecision on an engine. There are a lot of possibilities out there. For every combination you come up with, there seems to be a better one.
Keep in mind that the most expensive component by far to the drive train is the ZF. I don't pretend to be able to tell you how much power it will take. I do know that Ford ran the ZF behind the 289's in the GT40's. They were around 400hp but not a lot of torque. In 68 it was called a Gulf (after the sponser, Gulf Oil). They ran a Boss 302' at about 425hp but still not a lot of torque.
Ford built it's own transaxle for the GT40 427 Mark II's in '65, and it was a 4 speed using the internal components from the "top loader transmission". Those at most were 500hp, but made aa much torque.
I would think that should tell you something about the ZF's durabilaty or doubtabilaty. In other words, look out for a lotta cubes, you will break it.
A broken ZF is a very expensive proposition.
PD,
I have also run a couple Boss 302 in the past and the rev's of a small block and the wieght savings is where its at in the pantera. I hear ya, I have not had much experience with a blown ZF. Not sure where the ZF's breaking point is and not looking to find out. $$$$$$.
I am leaning towards the R302 siameze block I have but not sure whether I will use AFR heads or Cleveland heads. But definately webers on that also.
So what did you think of the cam ... Inlgese wants 65.00 for consultation. I wasnt sure how to determine the over lap you stated should have been between 30 and 35 ??
Ron
I have also run a couple Boss 302 in the past and the rev's of a small block and the wieght savings is where its at in the pantera. I hear ya, I have not had much experience with a blown ZF. Not sure where the ZF's breaking point is and not looking to find out. $$$$$$.
I am leaning towards the R302 siameze block I have but not sure whether I will use AFR heads or Cleveland heads. But definately webers on that also.
So what did you think of the cam ... Inlgese wants 65.00 for consultation. I wasnt sure how to determine the over lap you stated should have been between 30 and 35 ??
Ron
The overlap on that one is 48. It's ok, it will work. The fuel plume from the intake is basically from running flat out likw on a track like Pocono. When you pull in from a hard run it is possible to have accumulated atomized fuel in the engine compartment ( a fuel fog). I would just recommend that you park it where it doesn't immediately have to be moved. The spark would come from the ignition firing through the carburetor. You are probably more at risk if you run air cleaners and you can't see the build up.
You aren't at great risk with that cam. I'm running a lot more overlap then that at the moment. I don't think I'm going to change mine anytime soon.
Inglese would just recommend thier cam to you. It's by Cam Techneques. I've got the specs some where. It's something like .586 lift, 256 duration and 28 overlap. I didn't especially like it. I didn't think it pulled well at all at high rpm. I didn't like the sound of the exhaust (the frequency) either. It was too low and droned.
The exhaust should have a kind of whine/scream to it (higher pitch). That indicates that you are getting scavenging from the exhaust. Especially with the 180 bundle of snakes headers. The cam creates that.
There is probably already a good profile in the Crane Cams archives.
I personally am not to concerned with a cam change at the moment. Mine is at 72 overlap with 246 duration and .520 lift solid now.
I ran this set up before with the Iron heads before I "knew better" with no problems with no screens or air cleaners.
It made the stacks whistle from a distance. The whistle was lounder then the exhaust.
Run what you have.
Also, don't try to install the engine into the Pantera with the induction on. Put the engine in then drop the induction in.
Have fun.
You aren't at great risk with that cam. I'm running a lot more overlap then that at the moment. I don't think I'm going to change mine anytime soon.
Inglese would just recommend thier cam to you. It's by Cam Techneques. I've got the specs some where. It's something like .586 lift, 256 duration and 28 overlap. I didn't especially like it. I didn't think it pulled well at all at high rpm. I didn't like the sound of the exhaust (the frequency) either. It was too low and droned.
The exhaust should have a kind of whine/scream to it (higher pitch). That indicates that you are getting scavenging from the exhaust. Especially with the 180 bundle of snakes headers. The cam creates that.
There is probably already a good profile in the Crane Cams archives.
I personally am not to concerned with a cam change at the moment. Mine is at 72 overlap with 246 duration and .520 lift solid now.
I ran this set up before with the Iron heads before I "knew better" with no problems with no screens or air cleaners.
It made the stacks whistle from a distance. The whistle was lounder then the exhaust.
Run what you have.
Also, don't try to install the engine into the Pantera with the induction on. Put the engine in then drop the induction in.
Have fun.
Panteradoug,
The set I havea brand new, they look like someone couldnt get them to run, they appear they were bolted on out of a box, specs are exactly what the book says they should be, the intake has a slight bit of blakc carbon, almost like they spit up a plume once or twice and someones wife made them rip them off, I dont have to worry I have no wife.LOL The carbs are clean like never used except some dried up gas in the bottom of the fuel bowls.
I dont think its necessary to remove the throttle shafts and throttle valves. I can see as I used to adjust fuel injection, that the valves are all the way closed with the idle screwbacked out all the way. But if I glass bead them I may need to protect the roler bearings. I'm not a big fan of removing throttle shaft screws. I have found them a couple time stuck in the top of pistons on motor I have bought. Luckily these are new and dont need to be removed.
Yes got the thick gaskets from the UK and the gaskets from Alfa Argentina and talking with Garille. All this stuff is a couple bucks there ...inglese was talking 75.00 per carb for gaskets.. what are they smoking.
" high pressure fuel inlet valves. The are called "glass ball" inlet valves. They are like $30 or $40 for the set." Here is where you keep losing me ????? not sure where or what these are ???
Ok I know this is a performance set up and a racing set up... my motor is mild FOR NOW ! But there has to be a place for these Webers. I have to be able to get this mild motor to run at its peak with out blowing it up. Over reving it is whats going to put it in the grave..or some thing stupid like a broken valve or spring or some thing like that. But in the mean time .. I think I can play with this and get experience before I put the new motor in.
A little scared of this PLUME talk not sure I understand what is happenuing witht hat.
Ron
The set I havea brand new, they look like someone couldnt get them to run, they appear they were bolted on out of a box, specs are exactly what the book says they should be, the intake has a slight bit of blakc carbon, almost like they spit up a plume once or twice and someones wife made them rip them off, I dont have to worry I have no wife.LOL The carbs are clean like never used except some dried up gas in the bottom of the fuel bowls.
I dont think its necessary to remove the throttle shafts and throttle valves. I can see as I used to adjust fuel injection, that the valves are all the way closed with the idle screwbacked out all the way. But if I glass bead them I may need to protect the roler bearings. I'm not a big fan of removing throttle shaft screws. I have found them a couple time stuck in the top of pistons on motor I have bought. Luckily these are new and dont need to be removed.
Yes got the thick gaskets from the UK and the gaskets from Alfa Argentina and talking with Garille. All this stuff is a couple bucks there ...inglese was talking 75.00 per carb for gaskets.. what are they smoking.
" high pressure fuel inlet valves. The are called "glass ball" inlet valves. They are like $30 or $40 for the set." Here is where you keep losing me ????? not sure where or what these are ???
Ok I know this is a performance set up and a racing set up... my motor is mild FOR NOW ! But there has to be a place for these Webers. I have to be able to get this mild motor to run at its peak with out blowing it up. Over reving it is whats going to put it in the grave..or some thing stupid like a broken valve or spring or some thing like that. But in the mean time .. I think I can play with this and get experience before I put the new motor in.
A little scared of this PLUME talk not sure I understand what is happenuing witht hat.
Ron
Why bead them? Leave them alone. I'll see if I can find the inlet valves for ya'
AC, the Webers won't break the engine, you're the only one that can do that.
AC, the Webers won't break the engine, you're the only one that can do that.
They are 3.3mm glass ball IDA inlet valves. They are $20.28 each, from Gene Berg. !-714-998-7500. They wnt up a little.
Inglese is in business to make money.
Where would you go if I didn't show you the back alleys of Weberville?
He charges for his knowledge.
Inglese is in business to make money.
Where would you go if I didn't show you the back alleys of Weberville?
He charges for his knowledge.
Ah as I said your the best ... LOL
Yea we are all in it for the money...but thats why we are on this site to help each other keep these cars from fading away. And me included...I'm here if you need anything to return the favor. I have a pretty extensive shop, we are an Industrial Mechanical Contractor.
Inlgese well lets not go there.
Ron
Yea we are all in it for the money...but thats why we are on this site to help each other keep these cars from fading away. And me included...I'm here if you need anything to return the favor. I have a pretty extensive shop, we are an Industrial Mechanical Contractor.
Inlgese well lets not go there.
Ron
PD,
I am planning on running the Silver State ORR and the race is run at 5300' and the finish is at 3000' What suggestions would you make for my jetting changes. at least a starting point. I am a rookie with the webers but I am learning.
Thanks for your help
Dennis D
I am planning on running the Silver State ORR and the race is run at 5300' and the finish is at 3000' What suggestions would you make for my jetting changes. at least a starting point. I am a rookie with the webers but I am learning.
Thanks for your help
Dennis D
I don't know on that one. I would think that the proportion of the fuel to air (140/160) would never change. I suspect that you step down the size of the main fuel jet. I wouldn't think that you would ever go smaller then a 125 fuel main.
You may have to bring sizes from 125 up. I wouldn't go over 140 mains.
I don't know if you have to change the emulsion tubes. You may.
I know that the f7s the carbs come stock with is a leaner tube at higher rpm then the f5.
Count on running 65 idles, bring a set of 60's too.
If you have to change the emulsion tubes also, then you are really screwed.
I never ran at high altitude. This is a shot in the dark for me.
You could talk to Larry at Pantera Connection. He runs Webers in his race car and may have run the Silverstate.
If not get there a week early and start testing.
Sorry, this is the best I can do.
You may have to bring sizes from 125 up. I wouldn't go over 140 mains.
I don't know if you have to change the emulsion tubes. You may.
I know that the f7s the carbs come stock with is a leaner tube at higher rpm then the f5.
Count on running 65 idles, bring a set of 60's too.
If you have to change the emulsion tubes also, then you are really screwed.
I never ran at high altitude. This is a shot in the dark for me.
You could talk to Larry at Pantera Connection. He runs Webers in his race car and may have run the Silverstate.
If not get there a week early and start testing.
Sorry, this is the best I can do.
Panteradoug,
Question ? OK just one more please ! LOL
attached I have a pic of a linkage set up. I was windering if you had a pci of yours. I was wondering how to intergrate the stock throttle cable into this set up. I can buy the parts but need some input.
Ron
Question ? OK just one more please ! LOL
attached I have a pic of a linkage set up. I was windering if you had a pci of yours. I was wondering how to intergrate the stock throttle cable into this set up. I can buy the parts but need some input.
Ron
Where's the pic? I'll post my linkage pic in my photos. It will be too large to fit here.
send me your email its not possible to post the pic. I will send it to you.
R
R
Doug have you ver seen this tool for the webers ???
" THIS IS A SPECIAL TOOL (DRILL JIG) FOR IDA SERIES WEBER CARBURETORS FOUND AS ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT ON PORSCHE AND FERRARI CARS. (ALSO VOLKSWAGEN RACE VEHICLES). IT ALLOWS CORRECT PLACEMENT OF DRILL IN UPPER BODY OF CARBURETOR FOR VENTING THE FLOAT BOWL PROPERLY. IT ELIMINATES HOT START PROBLEMS BY VENTING THE HOT GASSES THAT BUILD UP AFTER SHUT OFF (HOT SOAK HIGH AMBIENT AND ENGINE TEMPERATURES) SO THAT FUEL IS NOT FORCED OUT OF THE MAIN NOZZLES (FLOODING). MADE OF HIGH QUALITY STEEL FORGING, MACHINED TO AIRCRAFT SPECS AND ALSO INCLUDES THE PROPER DRILL BIT. IT CAN BE USED ON HUNDREDS OF CARBS WITHOUT WEARING OUT."
Ron
" THIS IS A SPECIAL TOOL (DRILL JIG) FOR IDA SERIES WEBER CARBURETORS FOUND AS ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT ON PORSCHE AND FERRARI CARS. (ALSO VOLKSWAGEN RACE VEHICLES). IT ALLOWS CORRECT PLACEMENT OF DRILL IN UPPER BODY OF CARBURETOR FOR VENTING THE FLOAT BOWL PROPERLY. IT ELIMINATES HOT START PROBLEMS BY VENTING THE HOT GASSES THAT BUILD UP AFTER SHUT OFF (HOT SOAK HIGH AMBIENT AND ENGINE TEMPERATURES) SO THAT FUEL IS NOT FORCED OUT OF THE MAIN NOZZLES (FLOODING). MADE OF HIGH QUALITY STEEL FORGING, MACHINED TO AIRCRAFT SPECS AND ALSO INCLUDES THE PROPER DRILL BIT. IT CAN BE USED ON HUNDREDS OF CARBS WITHOUT WEARING OUT."
Ron
No, I haven't seen it. Webers are kinda' learned by the emberical method.
It sounds like a logical tool and it might actually work.
The solution I found for the carbs "perculating" was to use the Gene Berg high pressure glass ball valves and the thick heat isolator gaskets.
I remember Inglese telling me how the carbsflooded out of the hood scoop on the Cobra on the fresh paint.
I remember how I discovered it on my car. I didn't realize that they were flooding and when I went to restart the car it turned into a geiser of raw fuel.
Running Webers builds character.
Is this for sale on Ebay?
It sounds like a logical tool and it might actually work.
The solution I found for the carbs "perculating" was to use the Gene Berg high pressure glass ball valves and the thick heat isolator gaskets.
I remember Inglese telling me how the carbsflooded out of the hood scoop on the Cobra on the fresh paint.
I remember how I discovered it on my car. I didn't realize that they were flooding and when I went to restart the car it turned into a geiser of raw fuel.
Running Webers builds character.
Is this for sale on Ebay?
Yes , I asked the guy if it came with instructions. Dosent seem like you need the jig if you cold figure out where they are drilling ??
Ron
Ron
The vent hole is in the top of the carb in between the jets.
Why would one need a jig?
I don't see how even enlarging the vent hole would reduce pressure. It raises the risk of getting debris in the bowl. There is just a screen for protection.
I really think that the perculation is just from the heat of the engine rising from the engine, not from pressure build up.
The manifold gets really hot and the carbs become heat risers.
Heat isolator gaskets are mandatory and all that are really needed.
The Gene Berg valves are just added insurance.
Why would one need a jig?
I don't see how even enlarging the vent hole would reduce pressure. It raises the risk of getting debris in the bowl. There is just a screen for protection.
I really think that the perculation is just from the heat of the engine rising from the engine, not from pressure build up.
The manifold gets really hot and the carbs become heat risers.
Heat isolator gaskets are mandatory and all that are really needed.
The Gene Berg valves are just added insurance.
Doug check it out on ebay ... its not redrilling the old hole its drilling ata a slight angle ... 110027805258 I bid on it so we will see ... I have to say the factory mods are usually correct.
R
R
Yes I saw it.
What makes you think that this is a Factory tool?
I have never seen either of these tools mentioned in any Weber publication.
Most likely they are out of a Weber specialty shop.
What makes you think that this is a Factory tool?
I have never seen either of these tools mentioned in any Weber publication.
Most likely they are out of a Weber specialty shop.
So it states .......... THIS IS A SPECIAL TOOL (DRILL JIG) FOR IDA SERIES WEBER CARBURETORS FOUND AS ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT ON PORSCHE AND FERRARI CARS.
But I have to say the Porches and Ferraris are horizontal mounted IDA's ?????
So maybe it applys to them.
R
But I have to say the Porches and Ferraris are horizontal mounted IDA's ?????
So maybe it applys to them.
R
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
So it states .......... THIS IS A SPECIAL TOOL (DRILL JIG) FOR IDA SERIES WEBER CARBURETORS FOUND AS ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT ON PORSCHE AND FERRARI CARS.
But I have to say the Porches and Ferraris are horizontal mounted IDA's ?????
So maybe it applys to them.
R
Horizontally mounted ida's don't exist. You are thinking of DCOE's.
68-9 911's use 46 or 48IDA-3's. These share partswith the 48IDA's but are three throat castings and have other differences as well. Some VW based 4cy Porsches use 46 or 481da.
I don't know what Ferrari's use 48IDA. I haven't seen any.
The 365 GTB Daytonnas don't. Those look like IDF"s. My Italian Weber authority says the IDa's are strictly Porsche.
(He also refuses even to acknowledge the existance of such cars such as the Ford GT40 and the Shelby Cobra). I have to let that go. His friendly information is worth more then me being correct.
If the IDA's are on the Ferrari's they are certainly just race cars, not street cars.
"I interpret the above ebay quote to saying that the tool is intended for use on Weber Ida carbs.
There are Weber IDA carbs used on some Porsches, Ferrari's, etc."
It in no way states that this is a Weber factory tool or that you need this tool to make you Weber IDA's just like the ones used on the Porsches, Ferrari's, etc.
I also think that the wording of the ad is carefully worded to make you think that it is a factory tool. In other words, it is intentionally misleading the buyer.
The other possabilaty is that it is a factory tool and that it really works.
Knowing Weber, the carbs are supplied to the manufacturers as necessary, i.e., there are no modifications required or recommended from the way that theysupply them. There is "tuning" involved yes, but not "modifications".
Unfortunately on this auction Ron you need to find a lawyer highly experienced in tuning Weber IDA's to understand what the seller is saying or implying. But for $26 who's getting hurt?
Just a minor correction. The Eearly 911 Porsches used 40-IDA 3C carbs. The 46 IDA-3C's were used on the Carrera -6 and some RSR engines. The 46IDA was way too big a carb for the 2.0 and 2.4 litre six cylinder motors.If my fading memory does not fail me....about the only common part between the 46-IDA and the 48-IDA are the fuel floats and needle and seats.As far as I know WEBER never made a 48IDA-3 series carb.
I have a set of te 46-IDA 3C's on my factory 916-6 ( an ex-IMSA racer running a twin plug RSR spec motor)...... a really quick car! !
I have a set of te 46-IDA 3C's on my factory 916-6 ( an ex-IMSA racer running a twin plug RSR spec motor)...... a really quick car! !
I stand corrected. I am not a Porsche expert.
The point is that this tool could be a Porsche racing tool and not necessarily for the 48IDA's two throat castings which are different enough from the 3 throat.
The point is that this tool could be a Porsche racing tool and not necessarily for the 48IDA's two throat castings which are different enough from the 3 throat.
Guitar Man can you take a look at the tool on ebay .. I listed the item # ... can you explain the use ???
Ron
Ron
Just got in the door and read this message. Give me an hour or so and I'll pull the top off of one of my 46-IDA3-C carbs and compare the profile for fittment. I'm guessing the "fixture" will rest in the carb top plate (inverted) and aligns with some casting cavity for the vent hole drilling if needed.
It has been a while since I have been into these carbs but I never experienced any high temp - vapor/pressure build up in the 46's. Possibly only a 48-IDA issue??? I'll take a look - see.
It has been a while since I have been into these carbs but I never experienced any high temp - vapor/pressure build up in the 46's. Possibly only a 48-IDA issue??? I'll take a look - see.
Are the 46IDA 3 horizontal or vertical ..
Ron
Ron
The 46-IDA carbs are down draft( verticle) three barrel units.( 3 seperate venturi throats)
Doug / Guitarman anyone have the air horn fix tabs that hold the stacks on I need 16 and my luck they dont make them any more .. or I have no choice but to fab 16 of them and waste a saturday afternoon perfomong this tedious task.
I also need a throttle stop screw.
Ron
I also need a throttle stop screw.
Ron
Did you try Gabrielle David (Alfa17) in Italy?
I think they are the same as for th DCOE which he has parts for.
I think they are the same as for th DCOE which he has parts for.
He responded
Hi,
i am sorry but all my stock of IDA parts has been sold to a local porsche/VW shop.i have very few parts left.
Kind Regards,
Gabriele D.
The USA vendors want like 24.00 for a gauze cover ... but EUROCARB is the best but dosent have the tabs. You say the DCOE tabs are the same. Thanks ! LOL
Ron
Hi,
i am sorry but all my stock of IDA parts has been sold to a local porsche/VW shop.i have very few parts left.
Kind Regards,
Gabriele D.
The USA vendors want like 24.00 for a gauze cover ... but EUROCARB is the best but dosent have the tabs. You say the DCOE tabs are the same. Thanks ! LOL
Ron
I hate Porschies.
I think they use the tabs too, can't swear to it, Ask Gabrielle.
I'm sure that Gene Berg would have them too. I think they were $1 each.
I think they use the tabs too, can't swear to it, Ask Gabrielle.
I'm sure that Gene Berg would have them too. I think they were $1 each.
Ok I found everything at Inglese ... I was fooled and forgot the British pound takes 2 to equal one dollar and I rather buy American. So inglese worked out to be the same price and less shipping cost.
I dont like PORCHES either. But I have to say Pantera day at Pocono I got a ride in a 930 Turbo in race trim and I felt like I was in a real fast VW Bug. Like a tin can.
What are you using for linkage .. I had hardware to connect on on top of the throttle stop and one under by rotating the throttle stop 180 degrees. Not with a bell crank in the center. But used the bell crank on the side to connect the Pantera cable linkage.
Did you get all that >>>> LOL
Ron
I dont like PORCHES either. But I have to say Pantera day at Pocono I got a ride in a 930 Turbo in race trim and I felt like I was in a real fast VW Bug. Like a tin can.
What are you using for linkage .. I had hardware to connect on on top of the throttle stop and one under by rotating the throttle stop 180 degrees. Not with a bell crank in the center. But used the bell crank on the side to connect the Pantera cable linkage.
Did you get all that >>>> LOL
Ron
It depends on if your carbs all face the same way or if one side is reversed of the other.
Simplest thing to do is buy a complete Pantera set up from Inglese for $150 and be done with it.
Simplest thing to do is buy a complete Pantera set up from Inglese for $150 and be done with it.
they face opposite thats why one throttle stop has to be down and one up. But I think your right the bell crank both pulling toward the center or pushing is the best. I'll check it out. How far are they to drive ??
Ron
Ron
They are off of 95 past New Haven. North Branford I believe. About 2 hrs from you.
Take the entire set up with you and match up what you need.
They pretty much have everything that you need.
You can buy a "plain brown wrapper jet kit" from him too, but he'll give you 135/160/F5's with all the numbers ground off.
Take the entire set up with you and match up what you need.
They pretty much have everything that you need.
You can buy a "plain brown wrapper jet kit" from him too, but he'll give you 135/160/F5's with all the numbers ground off.
I have a set of Webbers on my FE Manifold. Where can I buy a Cleveland Manifold for Webbers? N How much?
quote:Originally posted by webbers:
I have a set of Webbers on my FE Manifold. Where can I buy a Cleveland Manifold for Webbers? N How much?
Try Hall Pantera. They are $600 for the iron head big port or $650 for the A3 small port.
I have a set complete since I just ordered a manifold to fit my 351W w/ C302B heads I may not be needing these.
Ron
Ron