New Heavy Duty 351C Block, by Tod Buttermore

More info would be great. I am a Pantera purist who feels only a Cleveland block should be in a Pantera. Someday there will be a new engine in 2511, and a stout brand-new 351C block for a starting point would be great.

Larry

What is your email?
W

Tod, we are all looking forward to the results of your test blocks. Please post your email address or send it to me at
richard@hitecheng.on.ca
Thank you
RichardT.

my email is tlb427@sbcglobal.net

The interest is growing and i plan to make a form spec sheet to respond to all of th questions.

tod

Tod it may help just to post the specs on this site 351C is the motor of choice so your in good company here.

Ron

Todd. I've been asked by others on the realbig board about cost and improvement details . Can you post these so I can forward it to the members?
Thanks, Will

this is copied & pasted from the Cleveland Forum:

Specifications of Tod Buttermore's new Cleveland block.

Siamesed bores. Cylinder O.D. is 4.550". Bores allow 4.125" overbore while retaining 0.212" walls. 4.185" bore will have 0.182" walls.

Priority Main oiling system. Sump, oil filter, crossover in front, up to main oil galley along side of the cam, from main oil galley to criss-crossed oil connection in rear of valley, through lifter oil galleys that are currently set to be 0.3125" diameter like Tod's FE block.

4 bolt mains.
Solid pan rails.
Billet caps. (Splaying will come later)
9.200" decks. (Possible 9.500" special order)
0.630" Deck thickness.
Screw-in freeze plugs.
Round water outlets at the decks for those who wish to tap and plug the holes.

External: Same bolt bosses as a stock Cleveland block, including the clutch pivot.

Finish: Bores unfinished. Will need to be honed to your pistons. Cam and crank bores unfinished. Hone to size. Decks squared to 0.002"-0.003".

Price Estimate: Iron will be $2200-$2300 and aluminum will be $2800-$2900.

Thanks George.

Hey Todd,I like what I see so far.I'd like to be kept up to date.

I am posting this info at Tod's request:

So far, here is a list of those interested in at least one block.

Tim Halstead
George Pence, cowboy from hell
Dave Wharan
Bruce (fomoco)
Randy (sellracing)
Travis
Shaneus
Jim Foster
Mark Skwarek
Canada Kaz
Ron Hammer
Vince Shanahan
Lyle Gilmore
Scott Popham
Chuck Engles
Jim Petersen
JF Jim
Bernhard Goldbach (Berlin, the Old Country!)
Rob Wehrli
David Thompson
Brenden Will
Jim Goodman
Ron Lombardo

Those who have expressed interest in dealing blocks:

AFD Dave
CHI John
Survival Motorsports (the great Barry Rabotnik)
Steven Toth
Paul Tattersall
Ty Lofstrom/TLI Racing
Mark McKeown/MME Racing

I haven't discussed anything with Kaase yet.

If you want on the list or taken off, please respond.

I meet with the bank on Wednesday and need as complete a list as possible for the initial wave of sales.

Thanks,

Tod

If you want to commit to the purchase of a block, you must contact Tod directly at:

tlb427 at sbcglobal dot net

Tod may not get your message if you only post it here

Me ... Ron Lombardo ..count me in for the Aluminum Version.

Tod has posted a quick blurb on the Cleveland Forum:

Quote:
"by the end of next week we will cast one"

Are you telling me that soon we will be able to buy an all aluminum engine from Mark McKeown, that will make 600 horsepower and all you gotta do is bolt it in??? Are you serious?? Do you know what this could lead to?? Have you no sense of social resposibility??? My God man, think of the ramifications on the social fabric of our poor belegured nation. This could be the straw that breaks the camels back!! A bunch of killer Panteras running amok??? I shudder to think!!!!

DT? An aluminum block C? I guess about $12,000. Your wife said you can get one? Great. I like her.

DT I think 600hp is conservative .. have we heard the projection of what HP this block is capable of ? Is it comparable to the DART Block.

quote:

An aluminum block C? I guess about $12,000.

Now, if the block is about $2900 - as posted above, I doubt you would NEED to spend another $9000 to get a complete engine - if you shop wisely and wrench yourself.

If you just write a check to MME, then $12K may be close.

Now where can I find $12K??

HINT: who needs GRP 4 tail lights?

Great, Doug, Ron and Larry you prove my point. Every Pantera owner will want one. They will have two and a half times the power they were designed to handle. You guys will go out and become public menaces and Nancy Pelosi will ban Panteras as being too dangerous to allow ordicnary citizens to own. Only Police and military should be allowed to have assault Panteras. You mark my words, you hot rodders will screw it up for the rest of us.
Man those grapes are sour. :P

Maybe this has already been discussed, but is this block machined, bored, and squared ready to go. Most race block I have seen require thousands of dollars in additional machining just to the block.

quote:

Finish: Bores unfinished. Will need to be honed to your pistons. Cam and crank bores unfinished. Hone to size. Decks squared to 0.002"-0.003".

I think that is about $500 right there.
I don't like the idea of line honing but that's what they do. Hone everything till it fits.
Since it is always on a go, no-go basis, I'm alsways afraid of the mains being just a little to loose.
I think that I'm a wory wart.

I'm not sure you can determine whether the deck is .002-.003" until the mains are finished, but I do like that number.

I know it is a "Cleveland" but is it cut for 9.2"?

quote:

9.200" decks. (Possible 9.500" special order)

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Mensen:
...is this block machined, bored, and squared ready to go. Most race block I have seen require thousands of dollars in additional machining ...

Engine builders like to perform the machining work themselves, or have their preferred machine shop do the work. They don't trust the block manufacturer to get everything as "square" as they would like it. and they're probably right. So block manufacturers leave the block partially unmachined to satisfy the engine builders, it gives the engine builder more block material to work with.

I am building a 351W SVO block. in some places in the bores there is evidence of slight casting texture. This is going to require a little more then a HONE ... cost ??? I estimate if I was doing the work ?? it may need a slight hit with a boring bar then a hone ... the deck will need to be checked if its square ?? then the main caps need to be milled and block line bored and or maybe a slight hone ... can should also be honed ... in my guestimation ?? this is time and money. Buying a block could mean 1000.00 in machining ... money well spent ....

BUT AND I SAY BUT ... Tod has been involved in the manufacturing of a few other very successful FE blocks. So expect this C block to be of high quality ..which probably reduce that 1000 figure.

R

I must be a really spoiled old timer. Maybe just plane lucky.
I was looking to reduce compression on my Clevelands and FE's.
I never had to aligh bore, or deck any of them.

$2900 plus the shipping and another $1200 to $1500 is a lot for an engine that doesn't need a full race prep.

What happens on the first rebore with new pistons and a new pin height? You have to do it all again?

It doesn't make sense to spend that kind of money on the block. What you are tring to do is equalize the compression stokes on each cylinder.

A production block won't even care about that until 8000rpm.

Does this block have more in it then 8000rpm?
You are into titanium everything with that you know?

That's the territory where the NASCAR "hot shots" put a Hank the Crank recip assembly in the LeManns Pantera and it blew up because the welds couldn't hold the Mallory metal in the crank at that rpms.

I wouldn't trust anyone with a NASCAR background. They can't even make a bobsled go fast without blowing up.

Doug,

This is by no means intended to debate you. BUT !

Any new Amunium Block for 2900.00 with Ductile Iron sleeves and the heritage that this block has ( GENESIS, POND and 460 TRICKFLOW ) my guess and hope is it will need minimual machining less then 1000 ..but when I build a motor costing 2900 for a block totaling 12k complete I have my engine builder check everything.

MME just built CL's motor with low compression and 700hp ... not full race prep ...but close.

On the first rebore the block has already been squared up ..but I would check it again. Remember years ago .. the drag racers used to use a new block in the tow vehicle to season it prior to machining it for race prep ..thats why I would check is again.

It brand new block I would spend the money for this block for high HP other wise purchase a 1500 SVO block for the street ..NO? At this price I dont think your buying it to compare to a production block .... I think this block is for excess of 8000 rpm ..the only man who can answer that is TOD.

Titanium ?? I;m into that now on the motor I;m building anyway.


" welds couldn't hold the Mallory metal in the crank at that rpms." ..... sorry bro but I;m a certified welder in Stick and Tig and that dont sound right ..

NASCAR is another story and a subject for another day .. you got big money, big sponsors, a lot of fans, hot shot drivers,

Ron

I wouldn't trust anyone with a NASCAR background. They can't even make a bobsled go fast without blowing up.

I will say one thing. I think $2900 for an aluminum block is a really good deal, and very tempting for me.

You are right. If you are going to "invest" in a real high performance engine, you have to spend what is necessary to give it the best odds of lasting.

I suppose that there is sufficient technology to make these blocks good investments. That is as long as you don't switch over to a Chevy.

These new blocks seem like a good ideal to me. If you are shooting for 500 plus HP why gamble on a production block that will only probably be able to be bored (Rebuilt) once before tossed in the trash because the cylinder wall thickness is to thin.

Not only that it will save you money if the bottom end doesn't fly apart and bend rods, break your crank and crack your high dollar heads.

I might be interested in the aluminum block myself as I'm sure the weight savings in the rear of my car would help me go around the corners a little faster. But I sure like the longer stroke in the 9.5" blocks

You can build a 427 Clevo with this block Mark:

4.125" bore x 4.00" stroke.

Even at a bore of 4.125" the cylinder walls are nominally 0.212" thick, plus you have a Windsor-like priority-mains oil system. Screw in freeze plugs and other little goodies.

George, my whole life I have wanted a car with an all aluminum 427. This is something I want to have very badly but I will never be able to have. You talking about it just makes it worse. I have wantitis so bad it is causing me bouts of depresion. Please don't keep rubbing it in what I can't have. It is making me bitter.

Ok sorry not to burst your bubbles, but has anyone thought (maybe I missed this topic/forum) about a World Man O'War 460 Ford "small block" aluminum block and heads??? see links below:

http://www.worldcastings.com/prods_pages/102075.htm

http://www.theengineshop.com/clevor.htm

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles...allblock/0510em_war/

http://www.worldcastings.com/ManOWarAluminumHomepage.htm

THIS IS A SMALL BLOCK FORD CRATE MOTOR THAT I GATHER IS PRETTY MUCH A BOLT IN MOTOR/HEAD COMBO WITH A 24 MONTH WARRANTY AND 600+ HP!!!

No bubble to burst, this one is a Cleveland block.
Some people feel that is what is supposed to be in the Pantera.
Go figure?

Dart, World Products and Ford Racing all sell WINDSOR blocks in alloy. If a 100% Windsor or a Clevor is your bag, then that's a good way to proceed.

The one difference you'll notice, with it's 9.2" deck height, the Clevo is limited to a 4.00" stroke. The Windsor is available in either 9.2" OR 9.5" decks, that extra 0.3" of deck allows the Windsor to fit a crankshaft with a longer stroke, up to 4.25".

However, when installing a non-Cleveland motor in a Pantera, you have to ask what exhaust systems are available. In this case, a 460 cubic inch CHI headed Clevor has no off the shelf exhaust systems available for installing it in a Pantera. All of the exhausts available for 9.5" deck motors are designed for Windsor style heads. Exhausts designed for Cleveland heads are designed for 9.2" deck blocks.

I hope that clears up some of the issues involved.

cowboy from hell

DeTom had just mentioned that he'd been dreaming of an aluminum 427....so an aluminum 460 is even better...The amazing thing is how much weight you lose and the inches you get without going to a big block. Yeah there may be some draw backs, but what a blast to drive, less weight (only 375 lbs) and a bunch more power.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom@Seal Beach:
DeTom had just mentioned that he'd been dreaming of an aluminum 427....so an aluminum 460 is even better...The amazing thing is how much weight you lose and the inches you get without going to a big block. Yeah there may be some draw backs, but what a blast to drive, less weight (only 375 lbs) and a bunch more power.

Detom is a fool with champain dreams on a beer budget. Don't listen to him. He is just jealous because everyone else is getting cool stuff for their cars that he can't afford. Detom is just a Pantera "cool guy" wantabe. Just ignore him and he will go away.

Latest news from Tod Buttermore, Tuesday May 22, 2007 ....

Quote:
"The mold is assembled, I am set to cast Wednesday morning. Despite some set-backs today outside of the foundry I was able to assemble a mold for the first sample casting. The molder is on vacation this week so I had to do alot of the work myself. The mold went together very well. I did spot some areas I want to increase metal thickness in, but over-all I am very pleased. One of the foundry guys watching and helping said he thought the set-up went together better than my FE mold does. Hopefully I will have the casting shaken out by tomorrow afternoon. Stay tuned.....Tod"

ONE STEP CLOSER TO REALIZING A DREAM

Latest news from Tod Buttermore, Wednesday May 23, 2007 ....

Quote
"We poured the first block this morning at 8:30 and shook it out this afternoon at 1:00. Not bad. Had one mis run flaw that was welded while the metal was still warm. Once it is heat treated and cleaned up I will put the old yardstick to it and see if it needs any dimensional attention. I may have to use a tape measure for more accurate readings.....Tod"

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