Sticky #4: Pantera Exhaust Systems

Must be the difference in where we are located? Those bends are about $30 each to me. At least that's what I was quoted?
I had two 3" to 2-1/2" stainless reducers made for me and they were $35 each.
I figure I would need about $3500 to buy the stainless necessary to build those headers.
When you are in NY, you ream them good?
Is Iowa really part of the US or is it NY is just in a different Universe? No matter. I'm stuck here. Wanna' see expensive? Forget Beverly Hills. Come to NYC. Fireman make $100,000 a year here. Cops retire with $200,000, a year pensions. No matter on which is real and which is screwed up. Effect is the same? Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell: Kelly my friend, you've done well. Can't wait to hear it & see it in person some day. -G


Thanks G.

I think I had one too many glasses of liquid sedative last night. I could have called it a night if I just said I figured I could buy all the stainless from the heads to the VBands for the same price as buying the Hall 180s (even though not available for my combo), having them coated, and shipped twice.

Best,
K
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug: Must be the difference in where we are located? Those bends are about $30 each to me. At least that's what I was quoted? Is Iowa really part of the US or is it NY is just in a different Universe?


It's not Iowa, just e-commerce man! I bought most of the stainless bends from these guys. It was all 3” CL and all US milled Rath-Gibson tube.

http://www.stainlessheaders.com/mandrelbends

I bought a few of the exceptionally tight radius (2” CL) pieces from these guys. It wasn’t quite the quality of the above. I’m not sure it’s a fair comparison given the tight bending radius but the tube just wasn’t the quality form the above source. They carry a lot of Vibrant brand stuff which is usually decent quality. They have lots of related hardware and I found their website quite user friendly and complete with information.

http://www.verociousmotorsport...-Steel-Mandrel-Bends

These guys are also quite reasonable and good quality.

http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/

All of the above are still full of mandrel lube. I bought a long tube brush for $3 and $3 worth of water base degreaser concentrate in a 5 gallon bucket. About 2 minutes in the bucket with the brush was all it took to make the pieces look bright dipped.

I’ve mentioned Burns a couple times. I don’t mean to bag on them in anyway. Their quality is first rate and the stuff comes clean, degreased, and individually wrapped. I just can’t justify 75%-100% more in price for it.

-Your results may vary.

Best,
K
This is just an amazing exhaust system!! Congratulations on the quality of the work.

Has anyone made a tri-Y header system that comes out over the transmission like these 180's do?

quote:
Originally posted by Panterror:
So I'm coming down the home stretch.

I mounted the first and third steps of each primary, pulled them down tight and (re)fitted the second step to each primary. I strapped the entire mock up to a hand truck and along with my son pulled it up the hill from my basement shop on New Years Day. I figure the whole thing was about 400 lbs and it was a bit more than I bargained for. Cherry picked it into the truck and then it was back for welding. -I disassemble it to take it back down to my shop. Wink



After tuning of the pieces a bit, I used the same foil tape to fixture the second step of each primary in place and tacked all the primaries while they were on the mock up. Each primary was then removed and welded. The primaries stayed in place very nicely this time and there is definitely a required order of reassembly for the primaries.













So they’re pretty much done though I’ll need to make a good support bracket at the rear of the mufflers. I may get out the buffing wheel and polish them up too. The tail pipes polished up nicely.

party

Best,
Kelly
Forgive me for asking, probably going to sound like a stupid question. How do you manage to get those on the engine once the engine is in the car? It just does not look like there would be enough room to install them.
BTW huge fan of the work, they look great!!
quote:
Originally posted by Quickitty:
Forgive me for asking, probably going to sound like a stupid question. How do you manage to get those on the engine once the engine is in the car? It just does not look like there would be enough room to install them.
BTW huge fan of the work, they look great!!


Each primary seperates and can be installed individually. Then you install the collectors, then mufflers. It's really not too bad and in some respects easier than conventional 4:1 headers beacuse you are only handling one tube at a time. However there is a specific installation order for the primaries that needs to be followed due to how they nest.

Best,
K
These are really a beautiful set of headers. Really nice job. Great welds.

I saw headers like this on the Holman-Moody Ford Mark IV continuation cars. They were not polished out. They had a nice golden tone to them.

As far as a support bracket remember that these headers move quite a bit when torquing the engine.

The supports will need to be flexible. I think this is why the GT40's use the "screen door" srings wrapped around the exhaust pipes?

I think if you don't do that you will stress the headers out at some point?

How close to equal lengths were you able to get the primaries?
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug: These are really a beautiful set of headers. Really nice job. Great welds.

Thanks Doug. I hadn’t looked at this post in a while.
quote:
As far as a support bracket remember that these headers move quite a bit when torquing the engine…..The supports will need to be flexible. I think this is why the GT40's use the "screen door" springs wrapped around the exhaust pipes? I think if you don't do that you will stress the headers out at some point?

Yup. Mounting must allow for dimensional change at temp.
quote:
How close to equal lengths were you able to get the primaries?

You can take a string or wire and measure the path 180 degrees apart down the length of the primary but it’s hard to do with all the snaking around. I used those orange building blocks for the layout and faithfully reproduced the segments in stainless bends which is probably about as accurate as trying to measure them. I’d say probably +-1/2” over nearly three feet of primary…and if so, that’s +-1%. All of the above only holds true if the exhaust pulse travels the centerline of the primary which is optimistic, what what else would you figure? –Close enough for Rock & Roll. They sound good and and were good for about 25HP over the best set of dyn headers and mufs in the shop. Hard to say how much better they are than PCar stockers but with the solid cam I'm running, I'd say a bunch compared to that.

I’ll have to post some pics of them on the engine on the dyno.

Take care,
K
quote:
Originally posted by Panterror:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug: These are really a beautiful set of headers. Really nice job. Great welds.

Thanks Doug. I hadn’t looked at this post in a while.
quote:
As far as a support bracket remember that these headers move quite a bit when torquing the engine…..The supports will need to be flexible. I think this is why the GT40's use the "screen door" springs wrapped around the exhaust pipes? I think if you don't do that you will stress the headers out at some point?

Yup. Mounting must allow for dimensional change at temp.
quote:
How close to equal lengths were you able to get the primaries?

You can take a string or wire and measure the path 180 degrees apart down the length of the primary but it’s hard to do with all the snaking around. I used those orange building blocks for the layout and faithfully reproduced the segments in stainless bends which is probably about as accurate as trying to measure them. I’d say probably +-1/2” over nearly three feet of primary…and if so, that’s +-1%. All of the above only holds true if the exhaust pulse travels the centerline of the primary which is optimistic, what what else would you figure? –Close enough for Rock & Roll. They sound good and and were good for about 25HP over the best set of dyn headers and mufs in the shop. Hard to say how much better they are than PCar stockers but with the solid cam I'm running, I'd say a bunch compared to that.

I’ll have to post some pics of them on the engine on the dyno.

Take care,
K


One race header builder that I know, "cc's" the tubes! Big Grin

I think if you can get them within 2" AND be able to get them on and off the car, you are an over achiever.

I don't know exactly how close the GT40 tubes were on the race cars but if they were within 2" I'd be shocked?

Nice job.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug: One race header builder that I know, "cc's" the tubes! Big Grin
I think if you can get them within 2" AND be able to get them on and off the car, you are an over achiever.
I don't know exactly how close the GT40 tubes were on the race cars but if they were within 2" I'd be shocked?
Nice job.


Thanks Doug. As far as I know exhaust tune is a function of harmonics which is modeled by wave theory. The operative factor in doing so is length of the primary. I had never thought about cc’ing a primary. I have my doubts whether volume would be a better predictor of length traveled by the wave of the exhaust pulse. The cross sections of even mandrel bent tubes aren't consistent enough and as I previously mentioned, I doubt the pulse feels compelled to travel the centerline of the snaking primary, but to the extent to which volume predicted length more accurately it could be helpful.

I do think the volume can be a predictor of the gas velocity and mechanical efficiency or losses, but the pressure wave is sonic.

If I was racing on TV on Sunday afternoons it might matter. My Pantera will never know the difference even if I did Wink

Take care,
K
I think the consideration in cc'ing the tubes is exactly what you were saying about the "effective length" of the primaries?

The guy who was teaching me head porting was telling me that parts of the intake port have little or no effect in increasing the volume of mixture able to flow within a given time period.

He also thought that the short turn radius into the valve pocket was the most important and used the analogy of a water fall as what he thought was happening there.

He thought that if the radius was correct that the mixture would flow like a liquid would at that point so the radius of the turn was very significant to the flow. The flow should be treated as a liquid would at that point.

Certainly harmonics can be heard in the intakes as well.

Exactly what is happening in the exhaust probably has similarities to those thoughts but if the current thought of modeling is that the harmonics are what is being tuned, who am I to argue?

Certainly the harmonics of the GT40's at Daytonna in '65 in the distance is what I noticed on the "bundle of snakes" exhausts they were running.

The Cobras would run by with an entirely different sound. The sound of the GT40 exhaust in the distance was unmistakable.

It was said at the time that the exhausts on the "40's" was thought to be worth about 100hp over the Cobras.

It's also interesting to me that the length of those primaries tuned the 289 to be all in at about 5,500 rpm? They certainly were being turned much higher then that.

I got "yelled at" by a couple of "vintage guys" that still work for Holmon-Moody, that the engines, at least in the case of the 427's, was strictly limited to 7,000 rpm, because of the limit of valve spring technology at the time. This for an engine that every other component seemed to be built for over 8,000 rpm's?

That certainly isn't the problem these days at all.

There weren't many shops back then with chassis dynos and if you think about it what the head porters were doing was copying "models" that they knew improved performance. The terminology hadn't been coined yet then to explain it.

Now everyone who has a software program that works with this can essentially design a profile that can be cut on a CNC machine and maximize for the criteria desired.

I think though that there will still be debate over whether the engine should be tuned for peak hp or maximum hp increase under the curve?

I tend to think for peak hp?
FWIW, engine builder & author David Vizard has written about headers several times in his various books, and according to his dyno tests, if the individual tube lengths are within about 6" or so, no power gains/losses will be seen. What's more important is the fit of the individual tubes into the weldment. Sloppy tube fits buttered up with weld do not work as well as neat fitting 'fishmouth' tubes, and often crack. Further, mild steel tubes will expand and contract by as much as 0.060", and stainless even more, which is really what cracks poorly made headers.
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
FWIW, engine builder & author David Vizard has written about headers several times in his various books, and according to his dyno tests, if the individual tube lengths are within about 6" or so, no power gains/losses will be seen. What's more important is the fit of the individual tubes into the weldment. Sloppy tube fits buttered up with weld do not work as well as neat fitting 'fishmouth' tubes, and often crack. Further, mild steel tubes will expand and contract by as much as 0.060", and stainless even more, which is really what cracks poorly made headers.


I'm not arguing and actually like that statement.

Putting headers on my Shelby, I wound up with a choice of Hooker Comps or Super Comps.

The Comps are not equal length. The Super Comps are.

Hooker claims the difference is 3% at the top.

In my case the difficulty of installation with the equal length increases exponentially.

Equal length were 34", the unequal short tubes were 32", long 34".

I'll go with Vizard. I like the guy already.

Cool
Hi all, this i my first post, my name is lyle and i'm from Sydney Australia. I don't have a Pantera but my car does have a 351c and this is what attracted me to this forum.

I've often wondered about this "equal length" primaries business with extractors. I know there is a sonic issue with pressure waves moving at the speed of sound and equal lengths are thought to be beneficial with this concern but i wonder if most engines would ever be used at the consistently high rpms to really justify it.

I was thinking that for most engines what you really need rather than equal length or equal volume, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is in fact equal flow.

Looking at a set of extractors with equal flow in mind you would actually not have equal length primaries anyway.

Imagine the pipes from the front cylinders of the engine, they tend to be long and straight with only slight bends, the pipes from the rear cylinders are bent and contorted in every which way like a angry sidewinder just to squeeze in enough tube length so they are as long as the front tubes.

But a bend in a piece of tube creates friction as gas flows through it. So 12 inches of tube with a 90 degree bend in it
may act as if it is 24 inches of straight tube.

This means those rear pipes with a bunch of wild bends in them to get them the same length as the long front pipes in fact could be much shorter and have less radical bends in them. A kind of balance between bend degrees and tube length would need to be found. Ideally rather than check the pipes volume the pipes need putting on a flow bench.

I guess you can theorize for ever over this sort of thing but the bottom line is you've got to have some pipes that will fit into your car. The theoretically perfect pipes are useless if they won't go into your engine bay. Smiler [IMG:left] [/IMG]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aus Ford:
Hi all, this i my first post, my name is lyle and i'm from Sydney Australia. I don't have a Pantera but my car does have a 351c and this is what attracted me to this forum.

I've often wondered about this "equal length" primaries business with extractors. I know there is a sonic issue with pressure waves moving at the speed of sound and equal lengths are thought to be beneficial with this concern but i wonder if most engines would ever be used at the consistently high rpms to really justify it.

I was thinking that for most engines what you really need rather than equal length or equal volume, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is in fact equal flow.

Looking at a set of extractors with equal flow in mind you would actually not have equal length primaries anyway.

Imagine the pipes from the front cylinders of the engine, they tend to be long and straight with only slight bends, the pipes from the rear cylinders are bent and contorted in every which way like a angry sidewinder just to squeeze in enough tube length so they are as long as the front tubes.

But a bend in a piece of tube creates friction as gas flows through it. So 12 inches of tube with a 90 degree bend in it
may act as if it is 24 inches of straight tube.

This means those rear pipes with a bunch of wild bends in them to get them the same length as the long front pipes in fact could be much shorter and have less radical bends in them. A kind of balance between bend degrees and tube length would need to be found. Ideally rather than check the pipes volume the pipes need putting on a flow bench.

I guess you can theorize for ever over this sort of thing but the bottom line is you've got to have some pipes that will fit into your car. The theoretically perfect pipes are useless if they won't go into your engine bay. Smiler [IMG:left][url=http://s1252.photobucket.com/user/Aero_9000/media/shed002s.jpg.html][/QUOTE


One thing I know is that the direction of the first section of tube is important.

If you notice that the first turn on Kellys pipes is up rather then down, this was shown on dyno tests to increase the flow of the exhaust ports.

On the iron 4v heads to accomplish this you really need to do something like was done on modifying the exhaust ports on the Pro Stock engines.

This is one area where the "high port" Cleveland heads is superior to the original Ford iron head exhaust port configuration which turns them down. The 2v ports simply can't be made to flow equal to the 4v ports in any configuration.

The 2v iron head is worse then the iron 4v in that respect.

That's one reason why the 3v heads, 2v intakes with 4v exhausts are popular.



In the Pantera the 180 degree header configuration compliments that flow increase potential by running up and over.

This is also an area where the Windsor port heads can't compete with the Cleveland heads.

So there are two advantages going on here, the first turn up of the exhaust, and the direction of flow up of the exhaust in the aluminum high port head.

When I first put the A3 heads on my engine, it was thought by the engine builder that it was simply about a 30hp advantage over the iron head?

If you notice, there are quite a few C3 head engines that are running around the streets with dynoed engines in the 700hp range vs. the 550hp range of the iron heads?
The head configuration and exhaust combinations are allowing for more then that 30hp initial difference.

Ron McCall just built one (the white Gp4 car) for a customer that shows around 750hp



The size of the tube, and the length of the primaries becomes a tuning device to put the maximum power at one particular rpm or in one power range.

A car with a conventional configuration of exhaust piping, turning down, is going to be at a hp disadvantage.



I suppose you could say that the identical engine in a different chassis then the Pantera is not going to make the same power because of the exhaust limitations of it vs. the exhaust configuration advantages of the Pantera.

I think that was shown years ago when Ford was running the 289 in the Cobra and in the GT40 and the GT40 made 100hp more because of the exhaust configurations available.



The original exhaust configuration of the Pantera of the headers "under" the chassis is because of the desire for the car to have a real rear trunk.

In the case of the original Pantera exhaust, it made less power then in a car like a Mustang because of the size limitations on building a set of headers long enough to have a set of working collectors.



There you have to go back and use the original Ford racing recommendations of a 2" primary tube, 36" long primaries, with a 3-1/2" collector 6 to 9" long (tunable) for maximum power.

The inside diameter of the exhaust primary should be about equal to the outside diameter of the exhaust valve, which is where the 2" primary tube size came from.

That may help compensate for "frictional losses" within the header? I doubt that these 180 headers are suffering much at all?



I have never seen a set of "under" car headers in a Pantera built close to those dimensions. They just won't fit with any kind of a muffler system?

Sure the harmonics are involved in this. You can always hear the difference in the harmonics of the exhausts on the race track. The cars that have noticeable more power have a higher pitched sound to the exhausts.

I think of it as similar to a trombone where the musician operates the slide to achieve the different notes. As a header builder, you are looking for a certain note.


Kelly's headers are a close attempt at maximizing all of these considerations and will no doubt play a mesmerizing concerto.
quote:
This is one area where the "high port" Cleveland heads is superior to the original Ford iron head exhaust port configuration which turns them down. The 2v ports simply can't be made to flow equal to the 4v ports in any configuration.

The 2v iron head is worse then the iron 4v in that respect.

That's one reason why the 3v heads, 2v intakes with 4v exhausts are popular.




I'm a little baffled by this. I've been hearing for years that the 2v exhaust port actually flowed better than the 4v exhaust port. The opposite of what you are saying ??
Not to my knowledge, but I could be wrong.

The 2v heads have a torque advantage at lower engine rpm's due to the smaller port area cross sections.

I've seen them run very well on 302's also.

The 2v heads are also pretty much limited to a .500" lift cam. They simply stop flowing over that.

In order to make 500hp out of 351 inches, you need around a .600" lift with 4v heads too...but this is kinda sidetracking this thread isn't it?
quote:
I'm a little baffled by this. I've been hearing for years that the 2v exhaust port actually flowed better than the 4v exhaust port. The opposite of what you are saying ?

4V heads flow better without a doubt! As Doug pointed out, 2V heads are purported to make more low end torque and offer snappier throttle response and off idle performance in a street driven Cleveland because the smaller intake ports allow for higher air/fuel mixture velocity at lower RPM's. But 2V heads will not outflow 4V heads!

More info on heads from Dan Jones at this link:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...700067562#9700067562
quote:
This is one area where the "high port" Cleveland heads is superior to the original Ford iron head exhaust port configuration which turns them down. The 2v ports simply can't be made to flow equal to the 4v ports in any configuration.

The 2v iron head is worse then the iron 4v in that respect.

That's one reason why the 3v heads, 2v intakes with 4v exhausts are popular.



quote:
I'm a little baffled by this. I've been hearing for years that the 2v exhaust port actually flowed better than the 4v exhaust port. The opposite of what you are saying.


quote:
4V heads flow better without a doubt! As Doug pointed out, 2V heads are purported to make more low end torque and offer snappier throttle response and off idle performance in a street driven Cleveland because the smaller intake ports allow for higher air/fuel mixture velocity at lower RPM's. But 2V heads will not outflow 4V heads!



posted August 30, 2009
quote:
The 4V exhaust port is an oddity of the Cleveland design, something we uninformed masses will scratch our heads about forever. Consider that the 2V head was an afterthought, it was designed by the same engineers who designed the 4V head but it has no gas bounce trickery in the exhaust port. The 2V exhaust port out-flows the 4V exhaust port measured in the conventional manner on a flow bench. But the 2V head does not have the same potential as the 4V head. I think the flow bench is a good tool for measuring the results of porting work, or for comparing one head to another, but it does not measure the head under dynamic conditions, with a piston going up and down in the cylinder, valves opening and closing, and combustion taking place etc etc. The engineers at Ford had dynamic potential in mind when they designed the 4V intake and exhaust ports. I guess the exhaust port design just didn't pan out as well as the intake port in real world use.


So which exhaust port flows better ??
Here's the numbers



That was me you were quoting. My comments weren't 100% accurate were they? The 2V exhaust port flows well on the bench, but it doesn't really out-flow the 4V exhaust port. Comparing ported heads, the numbers are quite equal up to 0.500" lift, then the 2V port predictably flattens out while air flow through the 4V port keeps on increasing.

If you wish to further discuss exhaust port flow, please start a new thread, do not take this thread further off-topic. I'll gladly move these last few posts to the new thread. And please keep it friendly and respectful.

-G
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench: FWIW, engine builder & author David Vizard has written about headers several times in his various books, and according to his dyno tests, if the individual tube lengths are within about 6" or so, no power gains/losses will be seen.

Actually, if you are referring to his writings in his “Building Horsepower” series, when Vizard made this statement it was specifically in reference to dual plane crank V8s and conventional 4-1 headers. This is due to the asymmetry in how the exhaust pulse phasing arrives at the collector in a dual plane V-8. Though dual plane V8s with 4-1s are relatively insensitive to primary length, they can be very sensitive to collector diameter and collector length. In fact, collector length can be a very (if not the most) effective parameter in tuning such a system once the in car constraints and layout is fixed. When you go to 180 degree exhaust in the same V8, equal length primaries certainly does matter. However, this whole discussion must be footnoted with the fact that it is most often the case that it is impossible to achieve the theoretically optimal primary length because you physically cannot make equal length primaries reach the collectors without adding additional length. This is certainly true in Pantera’s and GT40s. The most popular embodiment for dual plane V8s remains the 4-2-1 or the Tri-Y, as most commonly seen in NASCAR. When done properly, they are very long for Pantera fitment though possible. The good news is you can still build a high performing zero-loss exhaust system within the constraints of a Pantera.
quote:
What's more important is the fit of the individual tubes into the weldment. Sloppy tube fits buttered up with weld do not work as well as neat fitting 'fishmouth' tubes, and often crack. Further, mild steel tubes will expand and contract by as much as 0.060", and stainless even more, which is really what cracks poorly made headers.

In the same articles, Vizard also comments that 4-1 Dual Plane V8s are remarkable insensitive to dents in primary tubes, with sometimes no noticeable performance effect with even 60% of the diameter compromised. So all you sledge hammer mechanics rejoice.

Best,
Kelly
I purchased a set of Pat Mical headers and the joining pipe to the rear muffler. 3" collector which tapers down to 2.5" on mine and then v-band clamp to the mufflers. I did have some very noisy twin pipe mufflers that the fiberglass muck just continued to come out of. These are not from Pat or the ones he uses.


Pat Mical has modified a pair of my Hall Pantera euro Ansa mufflers that I had. He had to cut and then drill out where the old pipe came in and he welded a 2.5" stainless pipe in there with a v-band connector. Looks very nice and a lot quieter.


Pat also knocked out the plug that was at the very end of the perforated tube.
For something as coveted as ANSA mufflers, it continues to puzzle me why used, beat up relics continue to sell on Fleabay when Steve offers such a nice set. That said, I have seen literally zero marketing of his setup. Does anybody have any pictures of them installed?
Wilkinson removed the internal restriction. I think it was a 1-3/4" internal ring. I also think that was a sound reduction device on the original Ansa design.

When you increase the id of it, you increase the sound level emitted. There is some type of a graph on that somewhere?

Think of it this way, the additional sound is the 50 additional horses trying to get out.

I feel a sound level comparison coming on now in this thread? Anyone else feeling those vibes?

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