Randy, “state of the art” has more to do with controls and ignition than it does with hard parts. As always, the big question will be which manifold to use. I believe there are two readily available Weber manifolds: the Hall Pantera IDA manifold and Australian IDF manifold. Most throttle bodies have an IDA flange but I’m pretty sure they’re available for the IDF manifold from Jenvey in the UK. Once you’ve decided on a manifold, the rest becomes a matter of selecting parts and an ECU. Holley is an excellent choice. 

Thanks David, I thought I heard somewhere that the Borla manifold is a copy of the Hall manifold but has a built in vacuum plenum. Does that sound right? From their website:

"Cast in A356 alloy and machined in precision CNC equipment the manifold has cast-in plenum facilities for the MAP sensor and the Idle Air Control"

Are the Hall manifolds still being produced or are they selling old stock? The pictures on the Borla website and the Inglese website look to be the same manifold. 

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

Redline of Australia is the original manufacturer of the IR manifold with the built-in vacuum box. Its a 2V manifold with enough "flange" around the runners to seal-up around the ports of a 4V head. It uses intermediate adapters allowing it to be configured for either IDA or IDF bolt patterns. For that reason, its a tall manifold.

The Borla manifold below has a similar box, but its not the same manifold.  I'd guess they've designed their own manifold. You can see a corner of the box which has been added in the middle of the valley.

Below is the Aussie Speed of Australia IDF manifold, which like the Redline manifold is a 2V manifold  with enough "flange" around the runners to seal-up around the ports of a 4V head.

Below is the Hall manifold being used for IR fuel injection.

Below is the Hilborn "3 piece" EFI manifold for small block Fords. It provides manifold and throttle bodies all-in-one. Each bank of throttle bodies has a one piece shaft for the butterflies. Only linkage is that connecting one bank to the other. This gets my vote.

I found Jim Inglese to be friendly and knowledgeable. 

I talked to Hilborn about their system. Turns out Ken Lingenfelter has a Pantera now, and has had a Hilborn 8 stack system installed using a Holley ECU.

Jeff

osofast posted:

I talked to Hilborn about their system. Turns out Ken Lingenfelter has a Pantera now, and has had a Hilborn 8 stack system installed using a Holley ECU.

Jeff

That's a nice looking setup, are all those hardlines connecting vacuum? 

Those hard lines are likely all connected to a common plenum for the MAP sensor. Something else to keep in mind; some EFI experts feel the injectors should be aimed directly at the base of the intake valves, if possible. 

http://hilborninjection.com/pr...ronic-fuel-injector/

"Speed Costs Money....  How fast do you want to go, and how cool do you want to look doing it?"

Very nice!

Rocky

Suggestion

My advice is to choose a system that enables individual balance when synchronizing the throttle bodies.

Anders

rocky posted:

"Speed Costs Money....  How fast do you want to go, and how cool do you want to look doing it?"

 

Very nice!

 

Rocky

Not much point in trying to build one of these cars on a budget..."Ya gotta pay to play"

sf posted:

Suggestion

My advice is to choose a system that enables individual balance when synchronizing the throttle bodies.

Anders

What would you look for to distinguish between one that does vs one that doesn't?

4vandproud posted:

http://hilborninjection.com/pr...ronic-fuel-injector/

Hilborn quoted me a price somewhere around $12,000. 

Jeff

I think Anders is suggesting using 8 single barrel throttle bodies as opposed to 4 dual barrel units. 

I´have TWM on a Hall Weber intake on my motor. Them you can balance each bore. A little trickey but it will work.

A drawback for those system that have only one throttle axel.

Anders

FYI: TWM is now Borla Induction.

I have not seen any Borla/Twm throttle bodies that are individual, they all seem to be paired.

I don't think they do. The only source I know of, for a high quality single TB, is Jenvey in the UK (https://store.jenvey.co.uk/thr...s/sf-individual-body). Frankly, I don't see the benefit for a V8 application. 

how does $7,635.00 turn into $12k?

i'd just buy the intake & throttle bodies and use the new Holley Terminator X controller

4vandproud posted:

how does $7,635.00 turn into $12k?

i'd just buy the intake & throttle bodies and use the new Holley Terminator X controller

I was wondering about that myself.

             KINSLER FUEL INJECTION          Date: 02-15-2019

1834 Thunderbird

Troy, Michigan 48084 USA

Tel: (248) 362-1145

Page #1 of 2               Fax: (248) 362-1032

www.kinsler.com

   KINSLER FORD CLEVELAND SMALL BLOCK V8 with EFI FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM

Description                      Dealer Price

Kinsler injection manifold assembly for Ford Cleveland head           4,569.85

on V8 block with 9.2”, or 9.5” deck. 3-piece design aluminum

castings with 2.25” diameter lower angle throttles.

Bronze throttle shaft bushings, throttle shafts, billet spring

screw linkage, butterflies, Kinsler bolt-on TPS boss for

throttle position sensor, and universal boss adapters for EFI injectors.

Manifold assembly stands ~ 10.7” tall with a 3.5” ram tube.

“Swing Set” Linkage kit; for attachment to the valley plate.             588.45         

   Includes billet ‘U’ stand with ball bearing shaft supports

   in each upright leg, throttle shaft, shaft stop, throttle rotational

   stop, throttle arms at each end with (2) hex rod assemblies that

   connect to arms on the manifold end shafts.

(This linkage allows equal opening of counter rotation throttle shafts

   and a linkage pulling point parallel to the crankshaft)

Pair of KFI extruded aluminum fuel rails with mounting stanchions             557.30

With hardware and 6AN adapter fittings.

Manifold Absolute Pressure Reference Log System, (for use on           344.20

individual runner manifolds), consists of: blue/black anodized billet

log, barbed adapter fittings for log and runners of manifold, and

connecting hose. Includes labor to machine manifold for fittings.

Add $ 39.15 for quick release fittings and tubing.

Electronic engine management system, includes: Electronic Control     2,309.20

Unit (ECU) Model: Holley HP with fuel and spark control.

Standard OEM style wiring harness with power relay, and fuel pump relay.

Air temp, coolant temp, TPS for I.R. manifold, 1 Bar MAP sensor, 

Bosch Wide Band O2 sensor, software, and USB PC to ECU interface cable.

Base program EFI system for customer’s engine.                 644.00

The system will require fine tuning when installed.

Dual Hall Effect trigger (Speed/Sync) ignition distributor.            349.95

(8) EFI injectors, #10160, 40 lbs./hr. @ 45 PSI. Injectors will         680.00

support a 600 HP engine when operated at 55-60 PSI fuel rail pressure.

Bosch Fuel pump; 12-volt, in-line model #10211 with 10AN inlet and         357.70

6AN one way outlet adapter fitting. Capable of fueling 725 HP @ 50 PSI.

             Continued on Page #2

                     File: EFI_SB_Ford_Cleveland_Holley_HP_600HP_19.DOC

             KINSLER FUEL INJECTION         Date: 02-15-2019

1834 Thunderbird

Troy, Michigan 48084 USA

Tel: (248) 362-1145

Page #2 of 2           Fax: (248) 362-1032

www.kinsler.com

KINSLER FORD CLEVELAND SMALL BLOCK V8 with EFI FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM

Description               Dealer Price

Adjustable pressure relief valve, K-140 model with vacuum reference     514.25

and 8AN fittings. #12104, ~34-80 PSI adjustment range.

“Monster Mesh” Pump Protector inlet filter, 25 micron stainless mesh     159.70

element, Blue or Black anodized aluminum housing with 8AN MF ends.

Fuel filter, model: “Monster Mesh”, 10-micron disposable paper element,   193.30

Blue or Black anodized aluminum housing with 8AN male flare ends,

stainless steel mounting clamp, and spare element.         

Idle Air Control log system; includes special 3AN x 1/16 pipe          590.65      

fittings, billet aluminum distribution block, GM style stepper

motor, remote high flow housing, K&N air filter, and labor to drill,

tap, and install fitting into manifold runners.

(Custom hose assemblies ordered separately).

Total: $ 11,858.55

OPTIONS:

Add Fuel and Oil Pressure Transducers for EFI system monitoring.          267.90

Upgrade exhaust gas sensor to NTK brand for improved accuracy.          99.00

Optional Imron paint finish, Silver, Red, Blue, or Orange.               130.00

Triple layer screen filters for 180 degree bell ram tubes.          499.20

UPGRADE: to billet aluminum inlet radius plates, replaces ram tubes    938.45

and ram tube adapters. Allow 8-10 weeks for delivery.

Remote thermostat housing, cast aluminum body, accepts GM style stat.     126.95

and has added 3/8 NPT port for coolant temp sensor.

Add $12.00 for painted or polished housing.

*** NOTE ****

Fuel requirements rated at ~.5 Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC)

Polishing of manifold and ram tubes available, also anodizing of ram tubes.

These systems are custom constructed for the customer's engine and application.

DELIVERY TIME WILL VARY!

          PRICES SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE

                    File: EFI_SB_Ford_Cleveland_Holley_HP_600HP_19.DOC

davidnunn posted:

I don't think they do. The only source I know of, for a high quality single TB, is Jenvey in the UK (https://store.jenvey.co.uk/thr...s/sf-individual-body). Frankly, I don't see the benefit for a V8 application. 

http://www.wilsonmanifolds.net...egory&path=79_93

osofast posted:

davidnunn posted:

I don't think they do. The only source I know of, for a high quality single TB, is Jenvey in the UK (https://store.jenvey.co.uk/thr...s/sf-individual-body). Frankly, I don't see the benefit for a V8 application. 

http://www.wilsonmanifolds.net...egory&path=79_93

I couldn't see anything there that's suitable for an 8 stack EFI intake. 

davidnunn posted:

osofast posted:

davidnunn posted:

I don't think they do. The only source I know of, for a high quality single TB, is Jenvey in the UK (https://store.jenvey.co.uk/thr...s/sf-individual-body). Frankly, I don't see the benefit for a V8 application. 

http://www.wilsonmanifolds.net...egory&path=79_93

I couldn't see anything there that's suitable for an 8 stack EFI intake. 

Ok, my bad. I was thinking through this stupid cold!!

Jeff

Randy, 

For your consideration, attached is a picture of a "cross-ram" EFI IR intake that Lance Nist brought to a recent Pantera Club meeting here in So Cal.

Lance also has his own line of "Pantera EFI" ECUs.

Haven't seen many of these intakes on Panteras, but could be an option to have both longer runners *and* visibility out the rear. (Although may not fit w/180 deg headers.)

Dave

Nice! No cutting in the decklid needed

davek posted:

Randy, 

For your consideration, attached is a picture of a "cross-ram" EFI IR intake that Lance Nist brought to a recent Pantera Club meeting here in So Cal.

Lance also has his own line of "Pantera EFI" ECUs.

Haven't seen many of these intakes on Panteras, but could be an option to have both longer runners *and* visibility out the rear. (Although may not fit w/180 deg headers.)

Dave

Is this the Borla/Kaase 351W intake or the infamous Australian intake? Have you actually seen one on a Pantera? 

The "infamous Australian intake" you're referring to is, I presume, the system from Morrison. I spoke w/them and have seen their intakes at various trade-shows over the years. And from what I recall, their intake used shorter runners.

So maybe this is the "Borla/Kaase" intake. Lance Nist would know for sure. Reachable via www.panteraefi.com

I recall seeing at least one Pantera with the Morrison intake. Looks like a great way to potentially fit everything under the standard engine cover.

davek posted:

The "infamous Australian intake" you're referring to is, I presume, the system from Morrison. I spoke w/them and have seen their intakes at various trade-shows over the years. And from what I recall, their intake used shorter runners.

So maybe this is the "Borla/Kaase" intake. Lance Nist would know for sure. Reachable via www.panteraefi.com

I recall seeing at least one Pantera with the Morrison intake. Looks like a great way to potentially fit everything under the standard engine cover.

I tried to buy a Morrison intake years ago but discovered they are made-to-order. The lead time is at least 1 year. Maybe things are different now. 

I think the Borla/Kaase manifold could be made to work but it would likely require modifications or specific cylinder heads. 

Keep in mind, a “stack” intake can be made to fit below the deck lid by the careful selection of components. 

David, 

At least a year!?! That would certainly help explain why I haven't seen more of these on other Panteras!

Certainly you could fit upright "stacks" under the standard engine cover, and I've seen some great examples on this forum where that's been done. May be easiest for a race' application where the shorter runner length is tuned towards higher rpms ... and where the engine can be lowered.

I just did a search on this forum under "IR EFI" and found a bunch of examples of low profile set-ups, including a thread on the Morrison intake. Forgot what a great repository of info this forum provides!! (Thanks George!)

Dave

As an update...I spoke to Borla yesterday and their intake with the built in vacuum plenum is not ready for primetime yet. They were very vague when asked when it might be ready and about any details as to where they were being made. I also spoke to Jim Inglese and he relies on Borla for a lot of his parts (the manifold pictured on his website appears to be the same one that is on Borla's website. It's seams both companies are being very misleading about advertising a working system that isn't really available...very frustrating.

If interested in more details on fitment issues, some great info from Kelly Coffield's work on EFI as shared by Dan Jones here:  https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/351c-crossram-efi

Randy,

That's good info! 

FYI, in the less 'vaporware' category, I've used the Kinsler IR intake with excellent results. Highly recommended.

On the more obscure end of the spectrum, I'm thinking about using this in a Pantera: 

http://www.morrisonoz.com/FordManifolds.html

these look interesting. 

davek posted:

If interested in more details on fitment issues, some great info from Kelly Coffield's work on EFI as shared by Dan Jones here:  https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/351c-crossram-efi

I have one of Kelly's intakes and it's well designed but it's made for a 9.5" tall block and C302B or Brodix heads. He also had a version for 9.2" blocks with the same heads. Kelly's throttle bodies are "low profile" so the system, with air cleaners, will all fit below the rear deck lid. I made some modifications to mine, to lift the TB's about 3" and aim the injectors at the intake valve. This gives me an effectively longer runner but still (barely) fits below the deck lid. I'm using a Holley Dominator ECU and Jenvey drive-by-wire.  

Not only did Morrison tell me it would take a year or more (possibly much more) to manufacture an intake for me, they wanted 50% up front...non-refundable! I suggested putting funds in trust or a "ship-by or provide a refund" deadline but they would have none of it!  

It seems to me, for a 351C, the only readily available IR intake manifold is Hall's. Hilborn and Kinsler have intake systems with the manifold and throttle bodies integrated. They are both great companies and their stuff is awesome but their markets are more race than street. That being said, I seem to see lots of their stuff on street cars; mostly high end hot rods. If you don't mind going overseas, there are the Redline and Aussie Speed manifolds but I'm not sure of availability. 

davidnunn posted:

davek posted:

If interested in more details on fitment issues, some great info from Kelly Coffield's work on EFI as shared by Dan Jones here:  https://pantera.infopop.cc/topic/351c-crossram-efi

I have one of Kelly's intakes and it's well designed but it's made for a 9.5" tall block and C302B or Brodix heads. He also had a version for 9.2" blocks with the same heads. Kelly's throttle bodies are "low profile" so the system, with air cleaners, will all fit below the rear deck lid. I made some modifications to mine, to lift the TB's about 3" and aim the injectors at the intake valve. This gives me an effectively longer runner but still (barely) fits below the deck lid. I'm using a Holley Dominator ECU and Jenvey drive-by-wire.  

Not only did Morrison tell me it would take a year or more (possibly much more) to manufacture an intake for me, they wanted 50% up front...non-refundable! I suggested putting funds in trust or a "ship-by or provide a refund" deadline but they would have none of it!  

It seems to me, for a 351C, the only readily available IR intake manifold is Hall's. Hilborn and Kinsler have intake systems with the manifold and throttle bodies integrated. They are both great companies and their stuff is awesome but their markets are more race than street. That being said, I seem to see lots of their stuff on street cars; mostly high end hot rods. If you don't mind going overseas, there are the Redline and Aussie Speed manifolds but I'm not sure of availability. 

David, your system is just beautiful. If I understand this is a "one off" manifold? I came across another manifold from a company in Australia called EFI Hardware. It also has a built in plenum. What are everyone's thoughts on this one?

https://www.efihardware.com/pr...leveland-4vIDA-2vIDF

My intake manifold was manufactured by Kelly Coffield. He and I were in the same boat: 9.5" tall block and C302B (Brodix BF300 in Kelly's case) heads but no IR manifold for our combination. Lucky for me, Kelly decided to cast his own manifold. He did one run but last time I spoke with him, he wasn't planning to do any more. 

That EFI Hardware manifold looks great but do they really have them on the shelf? Also, don't make a cast-in MAP plenum your primary criteria. There's room in a 351C to hide a plenum below an IR manifold such as Hall's.    

The "EFI Hardware" manifold looks like an identical casting to the manifold in the Borla picture.

You don't need the vacuum box.

There are 8 port "distribution blocks" on the market that are perfect for the PCV plumbing … or MAP sensor . Tack it to the bottom of the manifold, plumb it to all 8 runners from underneath, and one connection for the PCV valve or sensor. The whole assembly is out of view. This one is Edelbrock #76578.

Another neat trick for individual runner induction is a separate electric powered vacuum supply for the brake booster. It eliminates the power brake vacuum plumbing as an eyesore or a plumbing issue.  Providing vacuum to the booster this way is common these days for electric cars, turbo & super charger applications, customs, and drag racing. 

A few OEMs have small, quiet, electric vacuum pumps. Add a small tank for volume & a vacuum switch to turn the pump on & off. I think there are some all-in-one units too; as I remember Audi has one that is popular.

Mount this vacuum "assembly" below the car, immediately under the brake booster. All that is needed is a 12 volt wire for power, and a short vacuum hose to the booster.

George, with the advent of electric cars, vacuum pumps that are designed to supply power brake boosters are common. As they are designed for a power brake booster application, they are usually a self contained unit with the appropriate pressure switches. I use one of these OEM vacuum pumps and stealthily hid it behind the driver's side headlamp.  Hella makes a good one, which I believe is the same as the Audi pump. Summit has them in stock!