Mike!, Mike!, Mike!....QUIT trying to reinvent the wheel!!!
NO NEED to JB weld or weld ANY magnet/s INSIDE the pan!
Just do as I & others have so correctly suggested & place as I suggested a sheet magnet on the OUTSIDE of the pan! or as others suggested various configurations of magnets, ALL on the OUTSIDE of the pan!
You can lead a horse to water, but CAN'T make him drink!, DON'T be that horse!!!...Mark
The pan is all cleaned and buttoned up.
I stuck the magnets on the outside of the pan, where they still have quite a bit of power to attract any magnetic particles.
The engine was running perfectly, quiet as a mouse actually for a solid lifter motor.
The valvetrain all checks out. It is all perfect.
I believe all the pieces found are from the previous rocker failure.
The design of the pan is such that debris can be captured in areas of the pan, and unless disturbed, can live down there without ever getting to the pickup.
There's a 1/4" lip at each of the 4 flaps that the offending piece had to jump to make it into the "kill box" and be sucked into the pump.
I believe Roger cleaned things up, the stuff went down and lived in one of the sections of the pan for who knows how long.
Only after I added the oil, did it either wash something down, or whooshed something over one of the flap lips into the pickup box.
There was no other real damage to the pump, and anything that made it through the pump went into the filter. The pump showed that very little "bad stuff" had gone through the pump, mainly just the one chunk that stopped it when I changed the oil.
The motor never even made a full revolution before the piece stopped the oil pump.
Given the situation, I've taken measures to make sure anything the size of the pins found in the pan either get caught by magnets, or cannot get through the screen. Even if more pieces get washed down, they shouldn't be able to cause this issue again.
I've cleaned the pan, I know the engine runs, no damage has happened on my watch except for the oil pump which I've replaced.
SO, the plan is to put the motor back together and run it.
Next year I'll have enough saved to go through the engine (and the gearbox while it's all out), and I think/hope things should be OK until then.
It's all I can do in this situation, short of parking the car for a year. If the motor blows holes through the sides then I'll build a new motor next year.
I stuck the magnets on the outside of the pan, where they still have quite a bit of power to attract any magnetic particles.
The engine was running perfectly, quiet as a mouse actually for a solid lifter motor.
The valvetrain all checks out. It is all perfect.
I believe all the pieces found are from the previous rocker failure.
The design of the pan is such that debris can be captured in areas of the pan, and unless disturbed, can live down there without ever getting to the pickup.
There's a 1/4" lip at each of the 4 flaps that the offending piece had to jump to make it into the "kill box" and be sucked into the pump.
I believe Roger cleaned things up, the stuff went down and lived in one of the sections of the pan for who knows how long.
Only after I added the oil, did it either wash something down, or whooshed something over one of the flap lips into the pickup box.
There was no other real damage to the pump, and anything that made it through the pump went into the filter. The pump showed that very little "bad stuff" had gone through the pump, mainly just the one chunk that stopped it when I changed the oil.
The motor never even made a full revolution before the piece stopped the oil pump.
Given the situation, I've taken measures to make sure anything the size of the pins found in the pan either get caught by magnets, or cannot get through the screen. Even if more pieces get washed down, they shouldn't be able to cause this issue again.
I've cleaned the pan, I know the engine runs, no damage has happened on my watch except for the oil pump which I've replaced.
SO, the plan is to put the motor back together and run it.
Next year I'll have enough saved to go through the engine (and the gearbox while it's all out), and I think/hope things should be OK until then.
It's all I can do in this situation, short of parking the car for a year. If the motor blows holes through the sides then I'll build a new motor next year.
I have heard that if a trip starts out bad, it will be a great adventure!
I hope that holds true in this case!
I'll feel better, and I'm looking forward to getting her back running.
I'll feel better, and I'm looking forward to getting her back running.
Must have been a relief to hear it fire up and run smoothly!
Hope your chest heals fast as well, Mike
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:quote:posted February 23, 2015 12:11 PM Hide Post
I am affraid to answer.
Yes! It finally happened! PanteraDoug stopped
She hasn't fired up yet. I still have a butt-load of more work to do to put the car all back together.
It will be sweet when it fires up again.
It will be sweet when it fires up again.
quote:Originally posted by sjdennis:
Must have been a relief to hear it fire up and run smoothly!
Hope your chest heals fast as well, Mike
Sorry Mike, one more link to think about. I've been using these and have had no issues since my rebuild. I have not cut one apart to see what was trapped so I can't really say if they work. Good luck and I can't wait for you to hear it roar again, post a youtube vid of the start up.
Jomar No by-pass Oil Filter
Jomar No by-pass Oil Filter
The pump has a bypass on it as well.
Do the bypasses get used every time you cold-start the engine?
Or are they there for when you over-rev the engine with too cold of oil?
Do the bypasses get used every time you cold-start the engine?
Or are they there for when you over-rev the engine with too cold of oil?
The pump is bypassing oil most of the time. That's why your hot oil pressure stabilizes at whatever it stays at (80 psi?) and doesn't fluctuate with RPM.
Rocky
Rocky
quote:Originally posted by Rocky:
The pump is bypassing oil most of the time....
Does the relief dump/spray the oil back in the area near the suction screen? or is it ported farther back in the pan? or is it just recirced directly back in to inlet flow?
Nyneighbor said he had a few hours this afternoon to help me.
I am in severe pan from my injury (injuries always seem to hurt worse a couple days after the incident), BUT,,,,
I got the oil pump ready, converted the pickup over to the new pump, got the pan cleaned and ready for install.
Today if I can I'll get under and clean the engine block if there's any silicone left, and prep the block for the pan install.
Then it's on to buttoning the car up.
I have a few new rubber hoses to replace, and still have to fix the distributor pin as well.
It all should be ready tonight when Chuck comes to help me, so progress can be made.
Snow White is in her deep sleep, poisoned by the apple she ate. Now the Prince will come and give her that kiss that wakes her up, and the dwarfs and all the animals of the forest rejoice.
Hopefully the story ends like the movie, and Snow White and the Prince go off to live happily ever after.
Measures are in place to prevent the same thing from happening again, no guarantees something else may happen (as suggested, it's a race motor, expect race breakage) but hopefully this will be the end of any issues and the motor should run fine until I get to doing a proper rebuild next year.
I am in severe pan from my injury (injuries always seem to hurt worse a couple days after the incident), BUT,,,,
I got the oil pump ready, converted the pickup over to the new pump, got the pan cleaned and ready for install.
Today if I can I'll get under and clean the engine block if there's any silicone left, and prep the block for the pan install.
Then it's on to buttoning the car up.
I have a few new rubber hoses to replace, and still have to fix the distributor pin as well.
It all should be ready tonight when Chuck comes to help me, so progress can be made.
Snow White is in her deep sleep, poisoned by the apple she ate. Now the Prince will come and give her that kiss that wakes her up, and the dwarfs and all the animals of the forest rejoice.
Hopefully the story ends like the movie, and Snow White and the Prince go off to live happily ever after.
Measures are in place to prevent the same thing from happening again, no guarantees something else may happen (as suggested, it's a race motor, expect race breakage) but hopefully this will be the end of any issues and the motor should run fine until I get to doing a proper rebuild next year.
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
Does the relief dump/spray the oil back in the area near the suction screen? or is it ported farther back in the pan? or is it just recirced directly back in to inlet flow?
I believe it just ports it back to the inteke of the gearrotor. Whereveer it squirts it back out at, it is very close to the pump suction, but I thought it was an internal bypass.
Rocky
All oil pumps have internal bypasses in a very short loop inside the pump body. A std 351-C gearotor pump can develop well over 150 psi with a blocked bypass piston or a sufficiently stiff relief spring. In a Pantera with an engine similar to yours that I was driving in competition, the engine builder had put in a high-pressure relief spring, and the car owner added 20W50-wt oil. The combination (plus 7000 rpms- I LOVE the sound of 180 headers!) blew the oil filter can right off the block! Dumping 10 qts of oil on track, I was not elected 'most popular driver' at that event...
Note- in Aviaid pans, the embossed ribs in the pan floor are open below the trap-door box. The errant needles likely washed under the box thru one of those at some point. Your magnetic sheet will freeze any more in place until you can pressure-wash the pan, block & heads at really high pressure. This is the kind of stuff that often happens with welded oil coolers- it's just very difficult to clean out metal debris from a blow-up (or in your case, simple breakage) from oil-soaked parts. Sonic cleaning sometimes helps.
Note- in Aviaid pans, the embossed ribs in the pan floor are open below the trap-door box. The errant needles likely washed under the box thru one of those at some point. Your magnetic sheet will freeze any more in place until you can pressure-wash the pan, block & heads at really high pressure. This is the kind of stuff that often happens with welded oil coolers- it's just very difficult to clean out metal debris from a blow-up (or in your case, simple breakage) from oil-soaked parts. Sonic cleaning sometimes helps.
I agree about the pan being difficult to clean, and holding onto parts stuck in the nooks and crannies. When I used high pressure water and soap to initially clean the pan, it knocked 3 or 4 more bearing pins out from hiding. I found a couple more after running a magnet around every crevice.
That is why the new finer pickup screen is going into place and staying there. There's just too much at risk. The drawback is I'll have to be careful when the engine is cold, and warm it up REAL good before driving.
Pulled the distributor to fix the sheared pin, and found the advance mechanism is not functioning, sticking badly.
This might explain the erratic idle the car had that I attributed to linkage being affected by heat (expansion and contraction). Idle would stick high, and take a throttle blip to get it to drop. Now though, after seeing how sticky the advance mechanism is (it doesn't spring back) I either need to send the diz off for service or just buy a new one, just another $450 is all.
If I have to buy a new distributor, I can replace with the same Unilite exact replacement, or I could get something else I suppose. I don't want to deal with rewiring, I just want my car back running. Tomorrow I'll call Mallory and see what their turnaround time is on service.
I'd love to go distributorless, or coil-on-plug, but that's another day.
That is why the new finer pickup screen is going into place and staying there. There's just too much at risk. The drawback is I'll have to be careful when the engine is cold, and warm it up REAL good before driving.
Pulled the distributor to fix the sheared pin, and found the advance mechanism is not functioning, sticking badly.
This might explain the erratic idle the car had that I attributed to linkage being affected by heat (expansion and contraction). Idle would stick high, and take a throttle blip to get it to drop. Now though, after seeing how sticky the advance mechanism is (it doesn't spring back) I either need to send the diz off for service or just buy a new one, just another $450 is all.
If I have to buy a new distributor, I can replace with the same Unilite exact replacement, or I could get something else I suppose. I don't want to deal with rewiring, I just want my car back running. Tomorrow I'll call Mallory and see what their turnaround time is on service.
I'd love to go distributorless, or coil-on-plug, but that's another day.
Remove the springs FIRST to determine whether or not you have a fatigued spring/s, might just be in need of a cleaning/oiling/new springs...a few bucks for a set of springs, some oil & labour & you are working...Mark
Yeah, it's a little more sticky/stuck than that. I can advance the mechanism, and it stays advanced. Then, with force, it can be twisted back to no advance.
It's either shot, or I damaged it when trying to tap the distributor gear on and off.
I was very careful to not freely whack on the shaft when trying to install/uninstall the gear, but I fear my tapping with the hammer may have pushed the advance mechanism up or down to where it's now rubbing against to part of the diz below it.
It's going to need servicing or replacing unfortunately.
It's either shot, or I damaged it when trying to tap the distributor gear on and off.
I was very careful to not freely whack on the shaft when trying to install/uninstall the gear, but I fear my tapping with the hammer may have pushed the advance mechanism up or down to where it's now rubbing against to part of the diz below it.
It's going to need servicing or replacing unfortunately.
quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Remove the springs FIRST to determine whether or not you have a fatigued spring/s, might just be in need of a cleaning/oiling/new springs...a few bucks for a set of springs, some oil & labour & you are working...Mark
OK, we are close to installing the pan. I have a little more scraping of old RTV off the block, some rubber undercoating to spray, and the pan should be ready to go back on.
Tomorrow morning early I'm either arranging to have me distributor serviced, and overnighted back and forth, or I'm ordering a new distributor and just be done with that part.
Either way, I'm not sure if they drill the hole in the shaft or not. Even if I order a new one, I may overnight my old one so they can match the gear position on the shaft. Otherwise I'll have to find a machine shop to drill the holes in the shaft and gear, and make sure the adjustment is perfect.
In any case, Snow White is a few days away from running again.
Tomorrow morning early I'm either arranging to have me distributor serviced, and overnighted back and forth, or I'm ordering a new distributor and just be done with that part.
Either way, I'm not sure if they drill the hole in the shaft or not. Even if I order a new one, I may overnight my old one so they can match the gear position on the shaft. Otherwise I'll have to find a machine shop to drill the holes in the shaft and gear, and make sure the adjustment is perfect.
In any case, Snow White is a few days away from running again.
Mike, remember that even more important than keeping your Pantera running is keeping yourself running. I also hate when a project is on hold, but make sure you don't re-hurt yourself. It can wait. It can...
Don't you have EFI with a CPU? Shouldn't the distributor be locked?
Will
Will
I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,
I think it only controls fuel.
It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.
II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.
Not monstrous, but very big.
I think it only controls fuel.
It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.
II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.
Not monstrous, but very big.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,
I think it only controls fuel.
It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.
II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.
Not monstrous, but very big.
The point of the Haltech is to control EVERYTHING. You can even control the on/off points of the radiator fans.
If the ignition is not involved in the CPU then it is a waste of potential.
The reason that the engine is so docile at idle is likely attributable to the Haltech.
Your description of the engines characteristics are indications that Hal is right there controlling everything.
Considering everything you have gone through with this engine, if it were me, I would install a new distributor. Maybe send the existing one out to MSD to have them look at it and rebuild it but I don't see a lot of point to that?
If the new one fails at some point, which I hope it DOES NOT, you will have an ignition history pattern to follow and an extrapolation would tend to indicate to go in a different direction.
What is the compression ration of this engine? Do you know it?
I would try to download and save a copy of what is currently programmed into the CPU.
When you pull up all of the overlapping graphs it will explain to a large extent what is going on with the engine management.
You might want to ask Roger what he did with that? I doubt he was running on the "standard" program.
There had to have been a laptop computer involved in this. Those finalized tuning points for this engine were saved somewhere?
Roger told me about some secret sauce program program his buddy had given him for the Haltech, and not to mess with it. He said that was why it ran so good.
I just ordered a new disributor, not taking any chances.
I hope I don't have to change the distributor drive gear again though, that was a PITA.
Of course I'll measure things, but I hope it's a drop-in affair.
I just ordered a new disributor, not taking any chances.
I hope I don't have to change the distributor drive gear again though, that was a PITA.
Of course I'll measure things, but I hope it's a drop-in affair.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,
I think it only controls fuel.
It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.
II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.
Not monstrous, but very big.
The point of the Haltech is to control EVERYTHING. You can even control the on/off points of the radiator fans.
If the ignition is not involved in the CPU then it is a waste of potential.
The reason that the engine is so docile at idle is likely attributable to the Haltech.
Your description of the engines characteristics are indications that Hal is right there controlling everything.
Considering everything you have gone through with this engine, if it were me, I would install a new distributor. Maybe send the existing one out to MSD to have them look at it and rebuild it but I don't see a lot of point to that?
If the new one fails at some point, which I hope it DOES NOT, you will have an ignition history pattern to follow and an extrapolation would tend to indicate to go in a different direction.
What is the compression ration of this engine? Do you know it?
I would try to download and save a copy of what is currently programmed into the CPU.
When you pull up all of the overlapping graphs it will explain to a large extent what is going on with the engine management.
You might want to ask Roger what he did with that? I doubt he was running on the "standard" program.
There had to have been a laptop computer involved in this. Those finalized tuning points for this engine were saved somewhere?
It's probably a copy of an extensive custom made program from another very similar spec engine.
I would say leave it alone, sure, but at some point in the future you are going to need a copy of the original in there now.
If it was me, I'd want a copy of it.
Even if you are looking at it and have some experience with these programs it will take a while to understand what you are looking at.
Having it as it is now is similar to having a restore point in your pc.
You have something to fall back on.
I would say leave it alone, sure, but at some point in the future you are going to need a copy of the original in there now.
If it was me, I'd want a copy of it.
Even if you are looking at it and have some experience with these programs it will take a while to understand what you are looking at.
Having it as it is now is similar to having a restore point in your pc.
You have something to fall back on.
The program as I said Roger told me was a custom one his friend made for him, and that's why the engine ran so well.
He has told me he's now busy and won't be available as a resource, so I'm on my own at this point.
I don't know enough about the Haltech, but the Haltech and ignition systems looked to me to be separate, but it could be a simple wire that mkes that true or not. I haven't checked.
I just keep finding more and more stuff about this car that needs service/replacing, I'm trying to get it back into running condition. Then I can work on fine tuning (although it ran sweet) and I have a good tuner who knows Haltech, so when that time comes I can have him take a look at things.
To add to everything that's going on right now, (car, injury, finances, being disabled from surgery) I just was told this morning my Father has cancer, no details yet, but it's serious.
When it rains, it pours, right?
It will be really good to get the car back running so I can at least get that behind me. I'm on the verge of a breakdown.
He has told me he's now busy and won't be available as a resource, so I'm on my own at this point.
I don't know enough about the Haltech, but the Haltech and ignition systems looked to me to be separate, but it could be a simple wire that mkes that true or not. I haven't checked.
I just keep finding more and more stuff about this car that needs service/replacing, I'm trying to get it back into running condition. Then I can work on fine tuning (although it ran sweet) and I have a good tuner who knows Haltech, so when that time comes I can have him take a look at things.
To add to everything that's going on right now, (car, injury, finances, being disabled from surgery) I just was told this morning my Father has cancer, no details yet, but it's serious.
When it rains, it pours, right?
It will be really good to get the car back running so I can at least get that behind me. I'm on the verge of a breakdown.
If it is a Haltech, most systems give you the ability to connect a laptop and upload from the Haltech EMC the current tune. That current tune is likely what roger is calling the secret sauce.
I highly doubt he has custom software in a factory Haltech EMC.
This is simple to figure out.
1. Find the model of Haltech EMC.
2. Download the software for that model.
3. Load software on laptop.
4. Connect laptop to Haltech EMC.
5. Upload current EMC mapping (ie:"the secret sauce")
For someone to tell you it is custom and to leave it alone is, IMO, stupid. You should know how everything in your car works. There is NO MAGIC in there. Sounds like Roger has been less than helpful and continues to be that way. Sorry for friends of Roger but he is not someone I would have wanted to buy a car from.
Not to worry, it is no magic. Haltech EMC's have been around a long time and are typically very easy to work with.
To Doug's point, you NEED to save the tune so that if anything goes wrong with the EMC in the future, you can get another one and reload the tune and then you are back on the road, with the same tune!
Scott
I highly doubt he has custom software in a factory Haltech EMC.
This is simple to figure out.
1. Find the model of Haltech EMC.
2. Download the software for that model.
3. Load software on laptop.
4. Connect laptop to Haltech EMC.
5. Upload current EMC mapping (ie:"the secret sauce")
For someone to tell you it is custom and to leave it alone is, IMO, stupid. You should know how everything in your car works. There is NO MAGIC in there. Sounds like Roger has been less than helpful and continues to be that way. Sorry for friends of Roger but he is not someone I would have wanted to buy a car from.
Not to worry, it is no magic. Haltech EMC's have been around a long time and are typically very easy to work with.
To Doug's point, you NEED to save the tune so that if anything goes wrong with the EMC in the future, you can get another one and reload the tune and then you are back on the road, with the same tune!
Scott
It's actually ironic in a sense that the correct program is so critical to IR FI and the Webers don't care.
Chris I think it is the ignition curve that is in the engine now and an electronic distributor that are calming this beast.
The fuel curve is just going to keep the a/f ration optimized.
I remember the days of just two parameters for FI. Oxygen sensor and throttle position.
I personally would not presume that someone did not tweak the program for that cam and compression ratio on pump gas...although I would NOT argue vehemently against that comment that it is the current standard default.
It's true that the "default" settings on everything have become more sophisticated and you can always pick up last years ECU on ebay as soon as the new models are available.
I wouldn't be good enough to write the ignition curve anyway. I would be trying to fix points in the curve that are not fixable necessarily.
Chris I think it is the ignition curve that is in the engine now and an electronic distributor that are calming this beast.
The fuel curve is just going to keep the a/f ration optimized.
I remember the days of just two parameters for FI. Oxygen sensor and throttle position.
I personally would not presume that someone did not tweak the program for that cam and compression ratio on pump gas...although I would NOT argue vehemently against that comment that it is the current standard default.
It's true that the "default" settings on everything have become more sophisticated and you can always pick up last years ECU on ebay as soon as the new models are available.
I wouldn't be good enough to write the ignition curve anyway. I would be trying to fix points in the curve that are not fixable necessarily.
Your Haltech ECU program is (or was) a highly customized version from Kirby Schrader in TX, off his street/roadrace Pantera. Over 10 yrs, it may have been further modified by someone in CA. Call Kirby for details- he's still running the same setup.
The Haltech EMC have 2 software components.
The program that makes them work... IE: Like the OS of your computer.
And the programed TUNE. The TUNE is what most people customize.
Also, you can buy Haltech EMC's that control ignition, fuel delivery or both. It would not be unusual if you had a unit that only controls fuel delivery.
Again, not hard to figure out. So again, is the customization the program that runs in the Haltech or the TUNE that is customer programmable?
The program that makes them work... IE: Like the OS of your computer.
And the programed TUNE. The TUNE is what most people customize.
Also, you can buy Haltech EMC's that control ignition, fuel delivery or both. It would not be unusual if you had a unit that only controls fuel delivery.
Again, not hard to figure out. So again, is the customization the program that runs in the Haltech or the TUNE that is customer programmable?
I agree with you on a number of points.
I was told many things about the car that just were not true, or important facts were omitted, important things.
I've kept my personal feelings out of this discussion because right now, I have a LOT of personal feelings that I'd like to express, but instead, I'm stuck with what I have, so I'm just going to move forward, fix the car, and next year I'll go through everything myself. Then nothing will be based on what I've been told, it will be fact, and true.
By chronicling what has happened to the car, I've devalued it now that everything is known about the condition the car was sold to me in. I plan to make everything like new, so I can enjoy the car with confidence, and if I ever decide to sell the car, I'll be able to give them a true, honest history of the condition of the engine and gearbox.
The gearbox shifts and feels great, although I did find bits stuck to the magnetic fill plug (neither the engine, nor the gearbox had magnetic drain plugs. The box had a magnetic filler plug only), but I suspect those aren't anything that affects the performance of the gearbox at this time. Small bits I think are to be expected in a gearbox, especially one that's been driven hard.
Next year, both engine and box will have been gone through, the rest of the car is sweeter than sweet, so I'll have what I originally wanted. It's just when I bought the car, it was insinuated that none of that needed to be done, and all was fine. "ticking time bomb" is a good description of what I bought.
I know, "race motor-expect race breakage", so that's where things sit right now.
The car will be back running very soon.
I've ordered a new distributor, and if the car runs as it did before, I plan to run and enjoy it.
I have a tuner who is familiar with Haltech and can make changes if necessary. I will definitely save the existing program.
I personally don't know enough about "tuning" with the laptop to understand, or make changes, so my plan is to leave things alone as long as the car runs well.
My plan WAS to learn everything about my car as I went along, owning and maintaining it. I did not expect or plan on getting this deep into "knowing" everything about my car in this manner.
I was told many things about the car that just were not true, or important facts were omitted, important things.
I've kept my personal feelings out of this discussion because right now, I have a LOT of personal feelings that I'd like to express, but instead, I'm stuck with what I have, so I'm just going to move forward, fix the car, and next year I'll go through everything myself. Then nothing will be based on what I've been told, it will be fact, and true.
By chronicling what has happened to the car, I've devalued it now that everything is known about the condition the car was sold to me in. I plan to make everything like new, so I can enjoy the car with confidence, and if I ever decide to sell the car, I'll be able to give them a true, honest history of the condition of the engine and gearbox.
The gearbox shifts and feels great, although I did find bits stuck to the magnetic fill plug (neither the engine, nor the gearbox had magnetic drain plugs. The box had a magnetic filler plug only), but I suspect those aren't anything that affects the performance of the gearbox at this time. Small bits I think are to be expected in a gearbox, especially one that's been driven hard.
Next year, both engine and box will have been gone through, the rest of the car is sweeter than sweet, so I'll have what I originally wanted. It's just when I bought the car, it was insinuated that none of that needed to be done, and all was fine. "ticking time bomb" is a good description of what I bought.
I know, "race motor-expect race breakage", so that's where things sit right now.
The car will be back running very soon.
I've ordered a new distributor, and if the car runs as it did before, I plan to run and enjoy it.
I have a tuner who is familiar with Haltech and can make changes if necessary. I will definitely save the existing program.
I personally don't know enough about "tuning" with the laptop to understand, or make changes, so my plan is to leave things alone as long as the car runs well.
My plan WAS to learn everything about my car as I went along, owning and maintaining it. I did not expect or plan on getting this deep into "knowing" everything about my car in this manner.
quote:Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:
If it is a Haltech, most systems give you the ability to connect a laptop and upload from the Haltech EMC the current tune. That current tune is likely what roger is calling the secret sauce.
I highly doubt he has custom software in a factory Haltech EMC.
This is simple to figure out.
1. Find the model of Haltech EMC.
2. Download the software for that model.
3. Load software on laptop.
4. Connect laptop to Haltech EMC.
5. Upload current EMC mapping (ie:"the secret sauce")
For someone to tell you it is custom and to leave it alone is, IMO, stupid. You should know how everything in your car works. There is NO MAGIC in there. Sounds like Roger has been less than helpful and continues to be that way. Sorry for friends of Roger but he is not someone I would have wanted to buy a car from.
Not to worry, it is no magic. Haltech EMC's have been around a long time and are typically very easy to work with.
To Doug's point, you NEED to save the tune so that if anything goes wrong with the EMC in the future, you can get another one and reload the tune and then you are back on the road, with the same tune!
Scott
Im not sure if it has been said but if the ignition is in fact controlled by the Haltech (there is a good chance of this) it is IMPERATIVE that the ignition timing be reset properly which requires connecting a laptop to the Haltech and turning on some settings. The distributor will also have the vacuum advance locked out as the Haltech controls this. These are great systems and is what I was running on my car with the old motor.
The distributor is mechanical advance. No vacum advance.
Mike I think you said you had 80psi oil pressure at idle. That sounds too high and could cause problems with cold starts where a lot of engine wear occurs + oil pump drag. Thicker oil is not necessarily better, it depends on tolerances used during the engine build and its age.
For example.. http://www.onallcylinders.com/...-myths-theyre-false/
For example.. http://www.onallcylinders.com/...-myths-theyre-false/
I agree, 80lbs cold idle pressure sounds pretty high to me.
That's what the car has though.
Here's the oil pressure rundown, when I had the car running at oil temps above 200.
Cold idle pressure 80lbs
Idle pressure 30lbs at 200 degrees
Pressure at 200-2500rpms 70-80lbs
Cold idle pressure 80lbs.
This why I thought maybe dropping a weight to 10-40 from 20-50 might be OK.
I've always gone by the 10 lbs per 1000 rpm rule, and my engine was definitely running higher than that.
That's what the car has though.
Here's the oil pressure rundown, when I had the car running at oil temps above 200.
Cold idle pressure 80lbs
Idle pressure 30lbs at 200 degrees
Pressure at 200-2500rpms 70-80lbs
Cold idle pressure 80lbs.
This why I thought maybe dropping a weight to 10-40 from 20-50 might be OK.
I've always gone by the 10 lbs per 1000 rpm rule, and my engine was definitely running higher than that.
If the Haltech controls the timing all advance will be locked out at the distributor including mechanical. The Haltech can not directly control the coil either. It will have to have some sort of ignitor (msd box or similar) so removing the MSD could cause failure in the ECU if you do not replace it with another ignitor.
quote:By chronicling what has happened to the car, I've devalued it now that everything is known about the condition the car was sold to me in.
On the contrary, you've increased the car's value because everyone now knows the complete state of the engine with certainty and confidence, and things look good. A well documented sorted car is always worth more.
quote:neither the engine, nor the gearbox had magnetic drain plugs. The box had a magnetic filler plug only
Swap the fill and drain plugs to put the magnetic plug in the bottom of the ZF case. If I recall correctly, they're the same thread size and interchangeable.
quote:The car will be back running very soon.
It will, and then you'll drive the wheels off it! Most likely, there will be no need to pull anything apart next year for rebuild. Get it back on the road and DRIVE IT! If or when something breaks, pull it apart, but otherwise keep driving it!
quote:My plan WAS to learn everything about my car as I went along, owning and maintaining it. I did not expect or plan on getting this deep into "knowing" everything about my car in this manner.
Yup! I had hoped to drive the wheels off of my car for 5 years before getting into the engine. Almost made it to 5 years, but spun a rod bearing. There were other fixes along the way, but it's part of the adventure of owning and driving a 40 year old car. Snow White is like a smoking hot divorced 43 year old MILF - she come's with baggage... But she's worth it!
Very soon you'll be back in the saddle and the last couple weeks will just seem like a bad dream. Hang in there Mike.
quote:I agree, 80lbs cold idle pressure sounds pretty high to me.
That's what the car has though.
Was that with the old high volume oil pump, or the new standard volume pump?
The old pump was a stock pump just like the one I am installing. I'm replacing with the exact same part.
Not high volume, Not high pressure. Bone stock pump
Not high volume, Not high pressure. Bone stock pump
In MY EXPERIENCE 80 # cold is normal with oiling modifications to the block. As the oil warms up it will drop down to something like 25 to 30.
With an engine like this that's what you want. You have all sorts of valve train components that require oiling for any kind of longevity.
If that breaks the drive pin in the distributor then declare it a piece of junk and find a distributor that is made for this OR completely get out of any kind of a performance car and take up roller blading.
You guys sound like a bunch of old ladies and sound like you are affraid of your own shaddows?
Grow a pair?
With an engine like this that's what you want. You have all sorts of valve train components that require oiling for any kind of longevity.
If that breaks the drive pin in the distributor then declare it a piece of junk and find a distributor that is made for this OR completely get out of any kind of a performance car and take up roller blading.
You guys sound like a bunch of old ladies and sound like you are affraid of your own shaddows?
Grow a pair?
My Subaru had 120-plus pounds cold idle pressure.
My engine, with 80 lbs cold idle pressure and 30+ at idle I was fine with. At crising speeds on freeway (2000-2500 rpm) the gauge showed 70-plus lbs, and I had no problems with those numbers at all.
My drive pin is extra beefy and doesn't twist, it shears pins.
Since I have installed the finer mesh screen on my pickup though, I was considering dropping a weight (from 20-50 to 10-40) and that seemed like an OK thing to do since my pressures were as high as they were when I had the 20-50 in it.
Granted, I have maybe a couple hours of experience driving this engine before the pump failure.
To start with though, I'm going to put the 20-50 back in, just the way it was before, and I think my screen mesh mod to the pickup should work just fine.
The guy I talked with at Aviad said IF there were to be any problems,it would be when the engine is cold, not hot, which indicates to me it is just very important to warm the engine oil up before running the engine hard at higher rpm's.
My engine, with 80 lbs cold idle pressure and 30+ at idle I was fine with. At crising speeds on freeway (2000-2500 rpm) the gauge showed 70-plus lbs, and I had no problems with those numbers at all.
My drive pin is extra beefy and doesn't twist, it shears pins.
Since I have installed the finer mesh screen on my pickup though, I was considering dropping a weight (from 20-50 to 10-40) and that seemed like an OK thing to do since my pressures were as high as they were when I had the 20-50 in it.
Granted, I have maybe a couple hours of experience driving this engine before the pump failure.
To start with though, I'm going to put the 20-50 back in, just the way it was before, and I think my screen mesh mod to the pickup should work just fine.
The guy I talked with at Aviad said IF there were to be any problems,it would be when the engine is cold, not hot, which indicates to me it is just very important to warm the engine oil up before running the engine hard at higher rpm's.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Since I have installed the finer mesh screen on my pickup though, I was considering dropping a weight (from 20-50 to 10-40) and that seemed like an OK thing to do since my pressures were as high as they were when I had the 20-50 in it.
The guy I talked with at Aviad said IF there were to be any problems,it would be when the engine is cold, not hot, which indicates to me it is just very important to warm the engine oil up before running the engine hard at higher rpm's.
First off the NEED for any engine NEEDING a 50 weight oil is BS. All any of them need is 30.
The final weight of any engine is going to be determined by the bearing clearances on the crankshaft.
50 weight would be for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 and use 40 weight?
EXACTLY WHERE that 20-50 number came from out of Ford engineering, no one seems to know but likely it was some sort of a "panic attack" that one of the Ford Engineers had when he saw a couple of bearing failures on the Phoenix test cars just before production started of the Boss 351.
Oil temps: exactly right. ANY "performance engine" should be at "operating temperatures" and that is THE OIL TEMPERATURE.
For oil, try 210 to 220 would be just about right. Everyone over cools the Hell out of their oil.
With the 10 quart Aviad pan alone it takes some doing to get this thing hot. With an oil cooler you had better have at least a 200 degree thermostat in there for the oil. 210 would be better.
I can't believe how many people are using the old "standard" Mocals that open at 180. Needless to say that is WAY too low.
They aren't even boiling out the moisture in the oil that is creating the sludge they see in their oil changes.
Many NASCAR cars and Pro Stock drag cars as well as others are using oil HEATERS.
In a car like yours AND mine, I would expect a couple of warm up laps on the track to get the car to operating temps.
In a cold winter climate like I am here in NY, I just park the car until May usually, sometimes April. Getting the engine to "operating temps" (oil temps) is hopeless under these winter conditions. I would need a heater to do that.
In searching to get a PCV valve system operating correctly with the individual runner manifold and Weber carbs, I purely by accident discovered that I pick up around 2 to 2.5 inches of vacuum at about 200 degrees oil temps.
I did not expect to see that and am wonder if I knew that but had just forgotten it?
The 427 Fords ran 100 psi for "performance" back in the day. 10 psi in those at idle means you need a rebuild.
The 289-302 Fords run the same roll pin and about 85 psi cold. I am sure people have broken those pins but I've never heard of one in that engine series personally, and the ONLY ones I have heard of in the Cleveland are either a Ford distributor that is not original and has been "rebuilt" by someone after Ford OR AFTERMARKET.
The other thing people are seeing with oil pressure variations is that high performance engines kill the actual viscosity of the oil.
I have only experience with one BB Chevy Pro Stock car but it would leave the line with 100 psi and come back into the pits with 10 psi. Reason. It just beat the heck out of the oil in only 1/4 mile.
The adage about 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm is a good guide. I personally though get VERY nervous at anything under 15psi. There are just so many things that could have gone wrong in the engine that created that.
Hallucinations? Maybe? I try to hallucinate about the Playmate of the Year though. It's more of a rewarding "trip".
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
Inches. They are so small that you need to measure them with Plastic-gauge.
You place the plastic-gauge under the bearing, torque the cap, then take it off and compare the squashed material to a paper chart that the stuff comes wrapped in.
If you read some old (1970 +/-) magazine articles about building race engines, you might see recommendations of .035" clearances on the main bearings.
There you need a thick single grade oil. Maybe a 50 weight?
Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy"quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
...Markquote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy"quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
Not so, on "loose and sloppy" but when you said MM I immediately thought of Marilyn. I'll make an exception every time there and hope that she will be the ghost of Christmas Future that visits me?
Oh a great fantasy there.
Tall, tight and leggy with that great high rpm "whine" is my preference.
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
If it's referencing journal to bearing clearances in inches there's another (forgotten?) zero needed to the right of the decimal. K
Because your "My Pal"...This is just for you Doug!...make sure to have the Jergens & Tissues READY!...Photo number "2" gets the "lead in my pencil"!!!...NO phone calls for the next hour, as I'll be "busy"!...Markquote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy"quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
Not so, on "loose and sloppy" but when you said MM I immediately thought of Marilyn. I'll make an exception every time there and hope that she will be the ghost of Christmas Future that visits me?
Oh a great fantasy there.
Tall, tight and leggy with that great high rpm "whine" is my preference.
http://www.ranker.com/list/hot...mat=SLIDESHOW&page=2
quote:Originally posted by Panterror:quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
If it's referencing journal to bearing clearances in inches there's another (forgotten?) zero needed to the right of the decimal. K
OOPS! MM makes it difficult to concentrate on.
I have assembled bearings that required 0.035" vertical clearance and even greater, but the journel diameters were 24" (and greater). they do make plastic gauge that size, but NAPA thinks you are crazy and don't carry it. for 0.035" clearance checks, I would prefer 6 amp fuse wire or three twist of 1 amp
funny story about plastic guage. checking small drive bearings that should have been 0.003". I noticed the new guy with the wrapper referance was going "its not 0.002, and its not 0.004" over and over. So I asked him why he didn't call it 0.003". he replied the plastic gauge was still red and to be 0.003" it needs to turn white.
funny story about plastic guage. checking small drive bearings that should have been 0.003". I noticed the new guy with the wrapper referance was going "its not 0.002, and its not 0.004" over and over. So I asked him why he didn't call it 0.003". he replied the plastic gauge was still red and to be 0.003" it needs to turn white.
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
I have assembled bearings that required 0.035" vertical clearance and even greater, but the journel diameters were 24" (and greater). they do make plastic gauge that size, but NAPA thinks you are crazy and don't carry it. for 0.035" clearance checks, I would prefer 6 amp fuse wire or three twist of 1 amp
funny story about plastic guage. checking small drive bearings that should have been 0.003". I noticed the new guy with the wrapper referance was going "its not 0.002, and its not 0.004" over and over. So I asked him why he didn't call it 0.003". he replied the plastic gauge was still red and to be 0.003" it needs to turn white.
Yes, Kerry is correct, the decimal point is off by 10 in my post. .0035" is a lot of clearance on a main bearing but used for a time in competition engines.
I'd have to look at my assembly notes but the last two engines I did were .0015" (347) and .0020 (351c).
That is the thickness of the film of oil that the crankshaft is running on. Viscosity would be determined from those clearances for a specific film strength (not MM film strength Mark
)
I do not use plastigauge. I measure the inside diameter with a bore indicator and the journal with a micrometer then subtract one from the other. This is done for each journal in at least two places. The seam of the bearings are always a little bigger. Measure twice cut once so to speak.
quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:
I do not use plastigauge. I measure the inside diameter with a bore indicator and the journal with a micrometer then subtract one from the other. This is done for each journal in at least two places. The seam of the bearings are always a little bigger. Measure twice cut once so to speak.
Good God, you and i must be the last of the Mohicans.
I have a machinist friend that works in the aerospace industry he taught me how. When I first told him that I was going to use plastigauge he laughed and then went on to explain that plastigauge is not as accurate.
Ah that explains it, i'm a machinist also...
I'm hoping to not sue either of those tools on my engine until next year when I go through everything.
Until then, I'm hoping it all holds together and runs fine until then.
I've taken every precaution I can think of.
Until then, I'm hoping it all holds together and runs fine until then.
I've taken every precaution I can think of.
Mike, Please don't take offense but I simply must say this.
I do not understand what your obsession is with tearing down the engine and ZF "next year" for a complete rebuild? Your current engine has very low miles on it. If you dodged this bullet and the the engine runs well and the ZF shifts like butter forget about it. Enjoy driving the car.
If the engine starts making funny noises (rod knock etc) smokes or refuses to run then yes yank it out. Until then DON'T WORRY....
I do not understand what your obsession is with tearing down the engine and ZF "next year" for a complete rebuild? Your current engine has very low miles on it. If you dodged this bullet and the the engine runs well and the ZF shifts like butter forget about it. Enjoy driving the car.
If the engine starts making funny noises (rod knock etc) smokes or refuses to run then yes yank it out. Until then DON'T WORRY....
right !
try it and maybe rebuild it
try it and maybe rebuild it
Agree with ItalFord 100%!, especially in regards to the ZF!.quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:
Mike, Please don't take offense but I simply must say this.
I do not understand what your obsession is with tearing down the engine and ZF "next year" for a complete rebuild? Your current engine has very low miles on it. If you dodged this bullet and the the engine runs well and the ZF shifts like butter forget about it. Enjoy driving the car.
If the engine starts making funny noises (rod knock etc) smokes or refuses to run then yes yank it out. Until then DON'T WORRY....
There are many parts in a V8, you Mike had the misfortune of a previous mishap leaving metal particles floating in the engine.
NOW you have corrected that problem!, your engine & transmission should operate to the same level of performance & satisfaction you ENJOYED, prior to the oil pump seizure.
Follow the time tested adage..."Leave Well Enough Alone"!....DAMN!...I feel like Dr.Phil!...I need a shower & some M.M. pictures!...Mark
You gentlemen are correct.
It's just for me, in my head, I bought what was supposed to be something that it wasn't.
I DO plan on enjoying the car and driving it once it's back together.
It's just that I now know these things about the car, and I'll feel better when I've gone through the engine and box, and have a "fresh start" if you want to call it that.
Believe me, when this engine starts,I'm going to go out and put it through it's paces, make sure it's still a solid runner, and then I'll drive and enjoy the car.
I bought a jewel of a car, and a jewel of an engine. I need to know that these both are as they should be. Since I was sold an engine that has had previous failures, with lots of steel bits runing through it, I think the right thing to do is to eventually go through the engine and confirm all is well.
The gearbox works fine, so I'll probably leave it alone unless I have an issue with it.
But when it comes time to go through everything, I'll be going through the box as well, so it's all new and fresh.
Then, if I decide to ever sell the car, I won't have to disclose anything, I'll be able to look the buyer straight in the face, and say "it's a low miles engine, never had any problems, should last a long time, runs perfect", just as I was told when I bought the car.
It's just for me, in my head, I bought what was supposed to be something that it wasn't.
I DO plan on enjoying the car and driving it once it's back together.
It's just that I now know these things about the car, and I'll feel better when I've gone through the engine and box, and have a "fresh start" if you want to call it that.
Believe me, when this engine starts,I'm going to go out and put it through it's paces, make sure it's still a solid runner, and then I'll drive and enjoy the car.
I bought a jewel of a car, and a jewel of an engine. I need to know that these both are as they should be. Since I was sold an engine that has had previous failures, with lots of steel bits runing through it, I think the right thing to do is to eventually go through the engine and confirm all is well.
The gearbox works fine, so I'll probably leave it alone unless I have an issue with it.
But when it comes time to go through everything, I'll be going through the box as well, so it's all new and fresh.
Then, if I decide to ever sell the car, I won't have to disclose anything, I'll be able to look the buyer straight in the face, and say "it's a low miles engine, never had any problems, should last a long time, runs perfect", just as I was told when I bought the car.
Wait until you get your bill for rebuilding the ZF LOL that will change your mind in a hurry. BTW the engine is no cheap fix either. I believe I have $8,000 in the engine and I did all the work besides the actual machine work.
Sounds like you are a bit obsessed with it right now. Lets some time pass and maybe some of the OCD will wear off.
Good Luck Dr. Phil LMAO
Sounds like you are a bit obsessed with it right now. Lets some time pass and maybe some of the OCD will wear off.
Good Luck Dr. Phil LMAO
There isn't really anything to disclose. It was a minor mishap and if I was buying the car and you told me what happened, I'd be satisfied with that.
It isn't just you at all. There seems to be this prevailing societal mentality that nothing is any good unless it is virginal?
I don't know where that comes from? Mid-evil times? Certainly not from me.
Warm up Snow White really well, hold on tight, take her for a ride. Drive it like you hate it and never look back. What happened is just water under the bridge, a few drops of oil on your face and just another chapter in your book. So what?
Your grand kids will love it. They probably would never have realized you were such a colorful character AND THEY have your genes too?
It isn't just you at all. There seems to be this prevailing societal mentality that nothing is any good unless it is virginal?
I don't know where that comes from? Mid-evil times? Certainly not from me.
Warm up Snow White really well, hold on tight, take her for a ride. Drive it like you hate it and never look back. What happened is just water under the bridge, a few drops of oil on your face and just another chapter in your book. So what?
Your grand kids will love it. They probably would never have realized you were such a colorful character AND THEY have your genes too?
You guys are right.
Once I hear her run again, get some miles on her, slap her ass a few times, I'll feel better about it all.
Thhis is still a big F78ked up ordeal that I didn't sign up for when I bought the car though.
IMO I have good reason to be upset.
She's close to being back together, there's a few things I still can't do due to my injury. I pretty much can't do much under the car on my back, it torques my chest too much.
All that's left is plug install, diz install, starter install, crossmember install, air cleaners (which need work, they were short for some reason and covering half of the 4 corner stacks) install, new water hose sections installed, interior install, and a few other things.
We got the pan on last night, so the main work is done.
I'm hoping my neighbor can help a little more with a few of the last things I can't do myself.
Tomorrow I'm tackling the water hoses, everything on this car is a pain in the a$$ to work on.
Once I hear her run again, get some miles on her, slap her ass a few times, I'll feel better about it all.
Thhis is still a big F78ked up ordeal that I didn't sign up for when I bought the car though.
IMO I have good reason to be upset.
She's close to being back together, there's a few things I still can't do due to my injury. I pretty much can't do much under the car on my back, it torques my chest too much.
All that's left is plug install, diz install, starter install, crossmember install, air cleaners (which need work, they were short for some reason and covering half of the 4 corner stacks) install, new water hose sections installed, interior install, and a few other things.
We got the pan on last night, so the main work is done.
I'm hoping my neighbor can help a little more with a few of the last things I can't do myself.
Tomorrow I'm tackling the water hoses, everything on this car is a pain in the a$$ to work on.
I pulled the plugs out a while ago so I could build some oil pressure before putting any loads on the motor since we'd been dry cranking it for so long.
I bagged the plugs. Just went to replace them with new plugs, and found that Roger was running 3 different plugs in the engine.
I have no idea which plug to install now at this point.
This car is chock full of surprises.
I bagged the plugs. Just went to replace them with new plugs, and found that Roger was running 3 different plugs in the engine.
I have no idea which plug to install now at this point.
This car is chock full of surprises.
That's a first.
I'll research the different plugs, and probably run the hotter plug out of the bunch, since this car will see 99% street use.
It will also probably be tuned, or at least the tune will be checked by my tuner.
I'd like to say a special thanks to Chuck Banks and Ron Southern, who have both come and helped me with working on my car.
It's a very uncomfortable position for me to be in need of help. I'm always the one pulling someone out of a ditch, or lending money to a friend, or using my AAA card to help an old ex who locked her keys in her car.
I am truly stuck here now, I injusred myself trying to deal with this muself, and Ron and Chuck have come to my aid, and we are close to getting the car back together.
There's still a thoudand things to do, most of which I can do myself, but then there's the things I just can't do because I either can'y physically, or haven't done it before, and would prefer an expert to help me (like with the pan install), I kow it's not rocket science, but Ron and Chuck have come to my aid and really saved me.
This whole ordeal has me depressed, I just found out my father has cancer and we don't know if he's going to make it, the shit is piled on thick right now, so Chuck and Ron, THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP!
I'm hoping if we make staedy progress, the car should be running here shortly.
It will also probably be tuned, or at least the tune will be checked by my tuner.
I'd like to say a special thanks to Chuck Banks and Ron Southern, who have both come and helped me with working on my car.
It's a very uncomfortable position for me to be in need of help. I'm always the one pulling someone out of a ditch, or lending money to a friend, or using my AAA card to help an old ex who locked her keys in her car.
I am truly stuck here now, I injusred myself trying to deal with this muself, and Ron and Chuck have come to my aid, and we are close to getting the car back together.
There's still a thoudand things to do, most of which I can do myself, but then there's the things I just can't do because I either can'y physically, or haven't done it before, and would prefer an expert to help me (like with the pan install), I kow it's not rocket science, but Ron and Chuck have come to my aid and really saved me.
This whole ordeal has me depressed, I just found out my father has cancer and we don't know if he's going to make it, the shit is piled on thick right now, so Chuck and Ron, THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP!
I'm hoping if we make staedy progress, the car should be running here shortly.
I don't know who Roger is, he may have had his reasons,
but leaving rocker bearing pins in the engine and being too cheap to buy 8 new spark plugs, twice, that's not good. I always buy spark plugs in sets of 10, measure them all for resistance after gapping them. The least varying 8 go in. Changing a few at a time? Never
but leaving rocker bearing pins in the engine and being too cheap to buy 8 new spark plugs, twice, that's not good. I always buy spark plugs in sets of 10, measure them all for resistance after gapping them. The least varying 8 go in. Changing a few at a time? Never
Mike, you may want to buy my book, now that you're forced to attend to this engine. Regardless, if you buy a new set of plugs and you're not sure how hot to get them, start COLD! Too cold will soot themselves, too hot will kill your engine. Just like fuel, start rich. And ignition, start retarded. Because hot plugs, lean
air fuel ratio and preignition can kill any engine
air fuel ratio and preignition can kill any engine
Well I can think of several reasons that this engine would have three different types of spark plugs in it. None are any good?
By saying three types, I presume that you mean three different heat ranges, not just brands?
In any case, that is an "interesting" discovery since going to EFI IR induction is because using Weber 48IDA carbs is not accurate enough for most.
Fouling plugs is one of the "notorious" fallacies that "Webers" have and this here spark plug thing is a very clear indication to ME that there are issues with the fuel injections inability to NOT foul plugs?
VERY interesting indeed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qf6Sv3A9zs
By saying three types, I presume that you mean three different heat ranges, not just brands?
In any case, that is an "interesting" discovery since going to EFI IR induction is because using Weber 48IDA carbs is not accurate enough for most.
Fouling plugs is one of the "notorious" fallacies that "Webers" have and this here spark plug thing is a very clear indication to ME that there are issues with the fuel injections inability to NOT foul plugs?
VERY interesting indeed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qf6Sv3A9zs
Thanks for the info on the plugs.
I'll go with the colder of the ones I found in the car.
I assumed since the car would be 90% driven on the street, that the hotter plugs would be the better option.
The car has the MSD ignition with the big square Mallory power coil as well..
There's been a number of engines run in this car, so some of the componenets may be remnants of previous engines, still in use.
The different plug thing, I don'r know what to say about that. The plugs, the distributor being bad, metal in the engine, the entire electrical system needing work, all these are surprises I was not ready to deal with.
Normal maintenance, valve adjustment, oil changes, brakes, wheel bearings, those were the things I had expected to do myself, and as everyone knows it's turned into much, much more than that.
My plan was also to replace older parts before they failed, like the water hoses and hard lines, fan belt, just in general take good care of the car, work on it and enjoy it.
I'll go with the colder of the ones I found in the car.
I assumed since the car would be 90% driven on the street, that the hotter plugs would be the better option.
The car has the MSD ignition with the big square Mallory power coil as well..
There's been a number of engines run in this car, so some of the componenets may be remnants of previous engines, still in use.
The different plug thing, I don'r know what to say about that. The plugs, the distributor being bad, metal in the engine, the entire electrical system needing work, all these are surprises I was not ready to deal with.
Normal maintenance, valve adjustment, oil changes, brakes, wheel bearings, those were the things I had expected to do myself, and as everyone knows it's turned into much, much more than that.
My plan was also to replace older parts before they failed, like the water hoses and hard lines, fan belt, just in general take good care of the car, work on it and enjoy it.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Thanks for the info on the plugs.
I'll go with the colder of the ones I found in the car.
I assumed since the car would be 90% driven on the street, that the hotter plugs would be the better option.
The car has the MSD ignition with the big square Mallory power coil as well..
There's been a number of engines run in this car, so some of the componenets may be remnants of previous engines, still in use.
The different plug thing, I don'r know what to say about that. The plugs, the distributor being bad, metal in the engine, the entire electrical system needing work, all these are surprises I was not ready to deal with.
Normal maintenance, valve adjustment, oil changes, brakes, wheel bearings, those were the things I had expected to do myself, and as everyone knows it's turned into much, much more than that.
My plan was also to replace older parts before they failed, like the water hoses and hard lines, fan belt, just in general take good care of the car, work on it and enjoy it.
In MY experience you will be happier with the hotter plug every time.
I use the Champion chart to cross reference heat ranges in this engine. I find their chart the most accurate.
By Champions numbers the COLDEST heat range for be the f9y (in a Windsor with the bigger base diameter plug) and the HOTTEST an F11y.
With the Webers I am running just 1/2 heat range under the f11y but even the f11y would be ok as long as the fuel ration is running lean anywhere.
Ultimately if you went a little hotter to like a 12, it would essentially work as an rpm limiting device somewhere in the 5500+ rpm range. You might even hear pinging there and the caution would be that if you did, that would not be good for the longevity of the engine.
By the same token with this much "induction" in the car you MIGHT see indications of the 9 fouling, then being cleaned up. That would be some glazing on the electrodes. That would be caused by the carbon (fouling) that was remelted as you rev'd the engine and deposited on the porcelins.
I am very sure that if you went to an 8, the car would be just unmanageable with fouling plugs.
If the former "mechanic" mixed 8's and 9' or some combination because of this, then he is either very very tricky and bright OR is very dumb.
Just like the shark in Jaws, "which is he Chief?" Caution should prevail.
...oh, aluminum heads like the hotter plug rather than the colder. Has to do with a more rapid heat transfer and loss than iron heads. Don't fight that. Nothing you can do about it.
I think it is actually a drawback to aluminum heads. They are harder to tune as a result.
Hey...listen. I do not get commission for selling Jon Haas' Pantera-Electronics Ignigition BUT and this is a VERY SIGNIFICANT BUT, it fires fouled plugs and cleans them up while the engine is running. The MSD DOES NOT.
If you are going to mess with ANY KIND of carburation or fuel injection OTHER than a box stock engine, you NEED the P-E.
Just trying to save EVERYONE some self imposed bumps of knowledge and lots of waisted time.
Mike, this is a defining moment in your Pantera ownership. You receive a lot of advice on this forum, but now you have to decide: who will you listen to? I've kept my fingers of the keyboard for a long time, and but I can't no more. There are people posting on this forum that clearly claims to know more than they really do. And they state their opinions as facts, not just opinions. You may decide I'm one of them, if you do, fine. But since I know you're going through hard times on more than one front, I have to say this.
Our good friend PanteraDoug is probably the most active on this forum, and his postings are indeed long and sometimes very detailed. He contributes a lot. Thanks for that. However, some of his opinions, stated as irrefutable facts, are at best questionable. His posting on plugs above is such an example. He knows for a fact that this and this heat range will foul your plugs, not true, every engine is different, the plug heat recommended should be a starting point. And PanteraDoug states that "you will be happier with the hotter plug every time", yes, but only until it's too hot, then it'll quickly melt your pistons, and then you won't be very happy... And you can't buy plugs based on "99% on the street" if that day on the track will kill your engine, right? You have to get plugs that are not too hot when the engine is really used hard.
PanteraDoug also states that a hot plug will be a rev limiter. It won't, and pinging usually starts at middle rpm uphill in high gear. And while pinging in a classic Mustang can be heard, in a noisy Pantera with the engine behind you, it can be hard to hear. I know that from my boat, I suddenly had a 502 cu in anchor instead of a supercharged marine engine, didn't hear a thing.
PanteraDoug also talks about glazed plugs, if you see that, then you have a serious heat problem in your cylinders. PanteraDoug talks about it as if it's something trivial, it's not.
I agree fully with PanteraDoug on this one:"If the former mechanic mixed 8's and 9' or some combination because of this, then he is either very very tricky and bright OR is very dumb."
PanteraDoug then states that Jon Haas' ignition will fix the problem, and MSD will not. Black and white like that. One system will, the other won't. That's just not reality. I know Jon makes great products, I use a few of them, and he's a super guy, so don't be afraid to buy something from him at any time, but stating as a fact that buying a Pantera-Electronics ignition will fix this, is simply a disservice to Mike, he has enough on his plate right now.
Here's my advice:
Find the physical size of the plug you need, thread, length, conical or not etc. For heat range, look in some charts, buy perhaps the 3 most likely sets. Install the coldest and run the car, idling, driving, flooring it. Remember that with modern unleaded fuels, coloring takes some time, use at least an hour. Read the plugs, all 8 (later when you know that there are no major differences between the 8 cylinders, you can just read 1). If too fouled, one heat range hotter. Repeat. Etc., you get the picture. That's the safe way.
Now I won't tell you what plugs to use, but I can tell you what I've been happy with in my 600HP CHI head'ed engine. The engine builder put in NGK Racing Plugs, and I didn't dare using anything else. Currently I use 5238 and similar with different heat ranges to experiment with. I'm told they give a good protection against overheating and fouling at the same time, which is also my experience, but whether they're better than other brands, I don't know.
If you need more info from me, I'd be happy to skype with you about it. Or you can send me a PM. I'd even fly over and help if you pay the airfare
PanteraDoug, sorry if I put you on the spot, you're not the only one, but some of the advice seen on this forum, can be a disservice to a new owner/inexperienced engine tuner. Let's try to not state our opinions as facts, they're only opinions.
Our good friend PanteraDoug is probably the most active on this forum, and his postings are indeed long and sometimes very detailed. He contributes a lot. Thanks for that. However, some of his opinions, stated as irrefutable facts, are at best questionable. His posting on plugs above is such an example. He knows for a fact that this and this heat range will foul your plugs, not true, every engine is different, the plug heat recommended should be a starting point. And PanteraDoug states that "you will be happier with the hotter plug every time", yes, but only until it's too hot, then it'll quickly melt your pistons, and then you won't be very happy... And you can't buy plugs based on "99% on the street" if that day on the track will kill your engine, right? You have to get plugs that are not too hot when the engine is really used hard.
PanteraDoug also states that a hot plug will be a rev limiter. It won't, and pinging usually starts at middle rpm uphill in high gear. And while pinging in a classic Mustang can be heard, in a noisy Pantera with the engine behind you, it can be hard to hear. I know that from my boat, I suddenly had a 502 cu in anchor instead of a supercharged marine engine, didn't hear a thing.
PanteraDoug also talks about glazed plugs, if you see that, then you have a serious heat problem in your cylinders. PanteraDoug talks about it as if it's something trivial, it's not.
I agree fully with PanteraDoug on this one:"If the former mechanic mixed 8's and 9' or some combination because of this, then he is either very very tricky and bright OR is very dumb."
PanteraDoug then states that Jon Haas' ignition will fix the problem, and MSD will not. Black and white like that. One system will, the other won't. That's just not reality. I know Jon makes great products, I use a few of them, and he's a super guy, so don't be afraid to buy something from him at any time, but stating as a fact that buying a Pantera-Electronics ignition will fix this, is simply a disservice to Mike, he has enough on his plate right now.
Here's my advice:
Find the physical size of the plug you need, thread, length, conical or not etc. For heat range, look in some charts, buy perhaps the 3 most likely sets. Install the coldest and run the car, idling, driving, flooring it. Remember that with modern unleaded fuels, coloring takes some time, use at least an hour. Read the plugs, all 8 (later when you know that there are no major differences between the 8 cylinders, you can just read 1). If too fouled, one heat range hotter. Repeat. Etc., you get the picture. That's the safe way.
Now I won't tell you what plugs to use, but I can tell you what I've been happy with in my 600HP CHI head'ed engine. The engine builder put in NGK Racing Plugs, and I didn't dare using anything else. Currently I use 5238 and similar with different heat ranges to experiment with. I'm told they give a good protection against overheating and fouling at the same time, which is also my experience, but whether they're better than other brands, I don't know.
If you need more info from me, I'd be happy to skype with you about it. Or you can send me a PM. I'd even fly over and help if you pay the airfare
PanteraDoug, sorry if I put you on the spot, you're not the only one, but some of the advice seen on this forum, can be a disservice to a new owner/inexperienced engine tuner. Let's try to not state our opinions as facts, they're only opinions.
I looked up the plugs, and they are all the same plugs basically, just renamed, some plugs were probably older, but they are all equivalent. So, I'll be putting the same plugs back in.
The fuel system is controlled by Haltech.
Again, i was told by Roger not to touch that because it had some program that his friend had loaded and that's why it ran so well.
The old distributor was sticking, and needed throttle blips at idle to get the idle to drop to normal. Now I have a new diz, new plugs, hopefully it will all work in concert and the engine will run as well or better than before.
The air cleaners were all shrunk, and literally covered half of four of the stacks. I'm either going to cut them, and add a spacer so they fit the air cleaner mounts, and don't interfere with the stacks, or find larger, porper sized air cleaners that fit the air cleaner bases better.
All these things should help with making the engine run as well or better than before.
The fuel system is controlled by Haltech.
Again, i was told by Roger not to touch that because it had some program that his friend had loaded and that's why it ran so well.
The old distributor was sticking, and needed throttle blips at idle to get the idle to drop to normal. Now I have a new diz, new plugs, hopefully it will all work in concert and the engine will run as well or better than before.
The air cleaners were all shrunk, and literally covered half of four of the stacks. I'm either going to cut them, and add a spacer so they fit the air cleaner mounts, and don't interfere with the stacks, or find larger, porper sized air cleaners that fit the air cleaner bases better.
All these things should help with making the engine run as well or better than before.
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
PanteraDoug, sorry if I put you on the spot, you're not the only one, but some of the advice seen on this forum, can be a disservice to a new owner/inexperienced engine tuner. Let's try to not state our opinions as facts, they're only opinions.
You haven't at all. There must be something lost in translation?
I don't speak in ultimates.
The plug temperature range has already been determined.
This is only a question of going one step up or one step down.
If you or anyone realize how close an 8 is to 9 and the total range to an 11 you would never bring this up.
The difference between a 9 and an 11 is small. It's the difference between a 2v engine that is a station wagon and a 4v in a Boss 351.
As I said, I'm not here to sell Pantera-Electronics equipment. I mention them because they aid in fixing some of the reoccurring issues with these cars like ignitions that get brought up time and time again on these forums.
But I do understand that yes you are here to sell your book. I think everyone here does right?
Unfortunately, I've only driven the car for an hour or 2. So I can't get a reading or gauge which plugs might be best.
I looked them up, and they all seem to be equivalent plugs from different eras, same plug, new name.
The air cleaners fit horribly, literally covering halh of the outer four stacks.
Reading the plugs, #1 was the blackest, oiliest, the front four were all blackish, and the rear four were all golden brown, like you want them to look.
This I cannot explain, except maybe the air cleaners were shoved forward or back, and caused irregular airflow.
Maybe the air cleaner fitting had something to do with this, but I plan to have proper fitting air cleaners when the things go back together.
I'm sure, if anything, performance was hurt.
In any case, I have the baseline of what the car had when I bought it, so that's where I'm going to start.
As I go along, I'm finding more and more things that are just plain wrong, or things I should have been notified of before buying, and I'll probably find more as I go.
So far I've had to go through the electrical almost completely, for the last month I've been dealing with this engine issue, my hopes are to just get the car back to being a solid running car (it seemed to run solid for Roger) and then go/fine tune from there.
I have a good tuner who knows Haltech well.
I looked them up, and they all seem to be equivalent plugs from different eras, same plug, new name.
The air cleaners fit horribly, literally covering halh of the outer four stacks.
Reading the plugs, #1 was the blackest, oiliest, the front four were all blackish, and the rear four were all golden brown, like you want them to look.
This I cannot explain, except maybe the air cleaners were shoved forward or back, and caused irregular airflow.
Maybe the air cleaner fitting had something to do with this, but I plan to have proper fitting air cleaners when the things go back together.
I'm sure, if anything, performance was hurt.
In any case, I have the baseline of what the car had when I bought it, so that's where I'm going to start.
As I go along, I'm finding more and more things that are just plain wrong, or things I should have been notified of before buying, and I'll probably find more as I go.
So far I've had to go through the electrical almost completely, for the last month I've been dealing with this engine issue, my hopes are to just get the car back to being a solid running car (it seemed to run solid for Roger) and then go/fine tune from there.
I have a good tuner who knows Haltech well.
quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
Mike, this is a defining moment in your Pantera ownership. You receive a lot of advice on this forum, but now you have to decide: who will you listen to? I've kept my fingers of the keyboard for a long time, and but I can't no more. There are people posting on this forum that clearly claims to know more than they really do. And they state their opinions as facts, not just opinions. You may decide I'm one of them, if you do, fine. But since I know you're going through hard times on more than one front, I have to say this.
Our good friend PanteraDoug is probably the most active on this forum, and his postings are indeed long and sometimes very detailed. He contributes a lot. Thanks for that. However, some of his opinions, stated as irrefutable facts, are at best questionable. His posting on plugs above is such an example. He knows for a fact that this and this heat range will foul your plugs, not true, every engine is different, the plug heat recommended should be a starting point. And PanteraDoug states that "you will be happier with the hotter plug every time", yes, but only until it's too hot, then it'll quickly melt your pistons, and then you won't be very happy... And you can't buy plugs based on "99% on the street" if that day on the track will kill your engine, right? You have to get plugs that are not too hot when the engine is really used hard.
PanteraDoug also states that a hot plug will be a rev limiter. It won't, and pinging usually starts at middle rpm uphill in high gear. And while pinging in a classic Mustang can be heard, in a noisy Pantera with the engine behind you, it can be hard to hear. I know that from my boat, I suddenly had a 502 cu in anchor instead of a supercharged marine engine, didn't hear a thing.
PanteraDoug also talks about glazed plugs, if you see that, then you have a serious heat problem in your cylinders. PanteraDoug talks about it as if it's something trivial, it's not.
I agree fully with PanteraDoug on this one:"If the former mechanic mixed 8's and 9' or some combination because of this, then he is either very very tricky and bright OR is very dumb."
PanteraDoug then states that Jon Haas' ignition will fix the problem, and MSD will not. Black and white like that. One system will, the other won't. That's just not reality. I know Jon makes great products, I use a few of them, and he's a super guy, so don't be afraid to buy something from him at any time, but stating as a fact that buying a Pantera-Electronics ignition will fix this, is simply a disservice to Mike, he has enough on his plate right now.
Here's my advice:
Find the physical size of the plug you need, thread, length, conical or not etc. For heat range, look in some charts, buy perhaps the 3 most likely sets. Install the coldest and run the car, idling, driving, flooring it. Remember that with modern unleaded fuels, coloring takes some time, use at least an hour. Read the plugs, all 8 (later when you know that there are no major differences between the 8 cylinders, you can just read 1). If too fouled, one heat range hotter. Repeat. Etc., you get the picture. That's the safe way.
Now I won't tell you what plugs to use, but I can tell you what I've been happy with in my 600HP CHI head'ed engine. The engine builder put in NGK Racing Plugs, and I didn't dare using anything else. Currently I use 5238 and similar with different heat ranges to experiment with. I'm told they give a good protection against overheating and fouling at the same time, which is also my experience, but whether they're better than other brands, I don't know.
If you need more info from me, I'd be happy to skype with you about it. Or you can send me a PM. I'd even fly over and help if you pay the airfare
PanteraDoug, sorry if I put you on the spot, you're not the only one, but some of the advice seen on this forum, can be a disservice to a new owner/inexperienced engine tuner. Let's try to not state our opinions as facts, they're only opinions.
On the Webered car, just the SCREEN on one and no screen on another will change the reading of those plugs. Fact, not an opinion.
If I might suggest (not stating right and wrong ) tune the car with no screens or air filters first.
When you get it to where you like the results (not saying at all what is and what is not right, you determine that, ), then you put on your screens or air filters and do it again.
See what effect that has on the plugs?
If I am not mistaken (and yes I can be and more often than I would like) the best flowing screens I have seen for the velocity stacks only flow around 80% of open stacks.
With Webers that's around 80 to 100 hp loss on this engine.
If I might suggest (not stating right and wrong
) tune the car with no screens or air filters first.When you get it to where you like the results (not saying at all what is and what is not right, you determine that,
), then you put on your screens or air filters and do it again.See what effect that has on the plugs?
If I am not mistaken (and yes I can be and more often than I would like) the best flowing screens I have seen for the velocity stacks only flow around 80% of open stacks.
With Webers that's around 80 to 100 hp loss on this engine.
I researched the plugs, and all were equivalent plugs from different eras, same plugs, different numbers, so that mystery is solved.
The air filter thing is serious IMO. If you saw how they fit, you'd laugh.
I was planning on cutting them and inserting (wiring inmaybe) a spacer so the cleaners fit around the edge of their mounts, and stayed out of the way of the stacks.
I asked Roger why he never ran the car without cleaners, because it looks just SO TOTALLY cool with no air cleaners, and he pointed to a bunch of dirt and rocks on top of the transaxle and said that those were just from our test drive, so I knew then I'd be running the car with the cleaners installed.
Now, when I get the cleaners to fit properly, and not cross across the middle of 4 of the stacks, things will probably be even better!
The air filter thing is serious IMO. If you saw how they fit, you'd laugh.
I was planning on cutting them and inserting (wiring inmaybe) a spacer so the cleaners fit around the edge of their mounts, and stayed out of the way of the stacks.
I asked Roger why he never ran the car without cleaners, because it looks just SO TOTALLY cool with no air cleaners, and he pointed to a bunch of dirt and rocks on top of the transaxle and said that those were just from our test drive, so I knew then I'd be running the car with the cleaners installed.
Now, when I get the cleaners to fit properly, and not cross across the middle of 4 of the stacks, things will probably be even better!
Hello Mikael; In your experience of pre-testing spark plugs prior to installation for resistance...Have you ever encountered/tested a Brand New spark plug the FAILED the resistance test?!quote:Originally posted by No Quarter:
I don't know who Roger is, he may have had his reasons,
but leaving rocker bearing pins in the engine and being too cheap to buy 8 new spark plugs, twice, that's not good. I always buy spark plugs in sets of 10, measure them all for resistance after gapping them. The least varying 8 go in. Changing a few at a time? Never
I would fine myself LESS than satisfied to purchase a Brand New FAULTY plug!!!...Mark
I'm happy to report that due to Chuck and Ron's help, we made serious progress today.
We picked up all new rubber hoses and clamps, and I got a set of plugs at the parts store.
Chuck got the starter in and also got the crossmember installed.
Next is to get the coolant hoses (hard lines and rubber) hooked up. There's some secret order in which the pieces all go together, of which I am trying to figure out.
There's a just one or 2 more things that I need help with after I get the hoses installed.
Still have to install the frame brace, well, there's a hundred more things to do, but we made good progress today.
I'll have to research to see if they make air cleaners that are a little bigger, otherwise the ones I have will need to be altered to fit without covering parts of the stacks.
In short time, all these things will be addressed, it's all be correct, and proper, hopefully running sweet, and I'll be back riding Snow White like she needs to be ridden.
We picked up all new rubber hoses and clamps, and I got a set of plugs at the parts store.
Chuck got the starter in and also got the crossmember installed.
Next is to get the coolant hoses (hard lines and rubber) hooked up. There's some secret order in which the pieces all go together, of which I am trying to figure out.
There's a just one or 2 more things that I need help with after I get the hoses installed.
Still have to install the frame brace, well, there's a hundred more things to do, but we made good progress today.
I'll have to research to see if they make air cleaners that are a little bigger, otherwise the ones I have will need to be altered to fit without covering parts of the stacks.
In short time, all these things will be addressed, it's all be correct, and proper, hopefully running sweet, and I'll be back riding Snow White like she needs to be ridden.
quote:Hello Mikael; In your experience of pre-testing spark plugs prior to installation for resistance...Have you ever encountered/tested a Brand New spark plug the FAILED the resistance test?!
Mark, testing for resistance in resistor plugs have often revealed a single plug with more than double built in resistance compared to the rest. I don't know how much that means, but in an attempt to secure even cylinder performance I discard it. A plug that didn't fire at all, that I can't remember.
A set of ten also makes indexing them easier if you want to go to that length
quote:But I do understand that yes you are here to sell your book. I think everyone here does right?
Of course. It's that 1-2 books I sell per month that keep me in luxury and Pantera ownership. Maybe you should buy a copy. I'll sign it for you...
What should a plug test, resistance-wise?
I have an ohm meter.
Can't say I've ever checked my plugs though, just gapped them and run them
I have an ohm meter.
Can't say I've ever checked my plugs though, just gapped them and run them
Just put one end on center electrode, other end on plug cable end. Use the 8 plugs that are closest in value. The absolute number is not important.
Well, I only bought 8 plugs, so it's moot unless I go buy more to compare against, unless I compare against some of the good looking used ones.
Anyways, today's goal is to get the water hoses connected.
I have to puzzle figured out, just no helper to help with squirming the tubes together from both ends.
Gonna give it a try by myself.
Anyways, today's goal is to get the water hoses connected.
I have to puzzle figured out, just no helper to help with squirming the tubes together from both ends.
Gonna give it a try by myself.
Today was a good day!
I worked all morning, found a friend to help me, and I got the entire water hose system back together! Everything! Every clamp! Every Hose! Every hard, steel, "s" shaped hard line that needed snaking around and over the frame from nowhere near where it actually ended up being, I got it all.
New clamps everywhere, even double clamped a couple of the points for good measure.
The water system is DONE! Ready for filling.
Yesterday we got the crossmember, starter, and parts for the cooling system, today I installed all the cooling system, there's just a few more things to do.
I have the motor set at TDC on #1, ready for the distributor to drop in.
I removed the gear from the old distributor so if I wanted to I could crank it by hand and prime the oil pump.
The plugs are removed, and new plugs will be installed after I've gotten oil pressure and oil throughout the engine again.
We are very close to finishing. There's still a hundred things to do, but I'm happy to have gotten some things done myself today without anyone's aid, my chest bone is feeling better. It feels good to have made progress.
I'll still need help, or at least someone who knows what's going on help me with the distributor install, and the frame brace install.
I'll be plugging the MSD box and everything ignition related back in place before the "incident" because those all were functioning, and the problem turned out to not be related to any of that stuff, so I expect it all to work as it's supposed to. Got me a new distributor too! Snow White is gonna be Pimpin!
Since I've been through almost every aspect of the car, she'll get a good detailing as well once she's well.
I worked all morning, found a friend to help me, and I got the entire water hose system back together! Everything! Every clamp! Every Hose! Every hard, steel, "s" shaped hard line that needed snaking around and over the frame from nowhere near where it actually ended up being, I got it all.
New clamps everywhere, even double clamped a couple of the points for good measure.
The water system is DONE! Ready for filling.
Yesterday we got the crossmember, starter, and parts for the cooling system, today I installed all the cooling system, there's just a few more things to do.
I have the motor set at TDC on #1, ready for the distributor to drop in.
I removed the gear from the old distributor so if I wanted to I could crank it by hand and prime the oil pump.
The plugs are removed, and new plugs will be installed after I've gotten oil pressure and oil throughout the engine again.
We are very close to finishing. There's still a hundred things to do, but I'm happy to have gotten some things done myself today without anyone's aid, my chest bone is feeling better. It feels good to have made progress.
I'll still need help, or at least someone who knows what's going on help me with the distributor install, and the frame brace install.
I'll be plugging the MSD box and everything ignition related back in place before the "incident" because those all were functioning, and the problem turned out to not be related to any of that stuff, so I expect it all to work as it's supposed to. Got me a new distributor too! Snow White is gonna be Pimpin!
Since I've been through almost every aspect of the car, she'll get a good detailing as well once she's well.
It's oil decision day again!
Roger ran 20-50 (I think Castrol) non-synthetic.
I had previously chosen Joe Gibbs 15-50, which if I choose again, will help a little with the finer mesh screen compared to 20-50.
Brad Penn (the old "Kendall, green oil") is another option I'm considering.
I had considered dropping an oil weight to 10-40, but was warned about the engine and what it was built for, clearances and such, so I'm probably going to run the Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs oils.
Both have high levels of zinc and ZDDP
Roger ran 20-50 (I think Castrol) non-synthetic.
I had previously chosen Joe Gibbs 15-50, which if I choose again, will help a little with the finer mesh screen compared to 20-50.
Brad Penn (the old "Kendall, green oil") is another option I'm considering.
I had considered dropping an oil weight to 10-40, but was warned about the engine and what it was built for, clearances and such, so I'm probably going to run the Brad Penn or Joe Gibbs oils.
Both have high levels of zinc and ZDDP
Mike do you know what camshaft you are running?
Flat tappet or roller?
You said you liked Joe Gibbs or Driven motor oil, but I do not understand your reluctance to use synthetic.
The Driven website has lots of information about oil, viscosity, ZDDP etc. For example this page..
http://www.drivenracingoil.com...er/guides/viscosity/
"Choosing a motor oil with a higher base oil viscosity index provides the benefit of improved flow when it is cold while maintaining oil film thickness at high temperatures. Conventional mineral base oils have a viscosity index in the range of 100, while synthetic base oils typically have a viscosity index in the range of 150."
"If you are running a conventional 20W-50, just by changing to an mPAO based 10W-40, you can reduce start-up wear without sacrificing high temperature durability or oil pressure."
Give Driven a call and maybe call Royal Purple and a few others. They will be able to inform you how oil has improved or changed.
Flat tappet or roller?
You said you liked Joe Gibbs or Driven motor oil, but I do not understand your reluctance to use synthetic.
The Driven website has lots of information about oil, viscosity, ZDDP etc. For example this page..
http://www.drivenracingoil.com...er/guides/viscosity/
"Choosing a motor oil with a higher base oil viscosity index provides the benefit of improved flow when it is cold while maintaining oil film thickness at high temperatures. Conventional mineral base oils have a viscosity index in the range of 100, while synthetic base oils typically have a viscosity index in the range of 150."
"If you are running a conventional 20W-50, just by changing to an mPAO based 10W-40, you can reduce start-up wear without sacrificing high temperature durability or oil pressure."
Give Driven a call and maybe call Royal Purple and a few others. They will be able to inform you how oil has improved or changed.
Thanks for the tips.
When I mentioned dropping a weight to 10-40 because of the finer mesh screen, people commented on the fact that the engine may have been built to run on 20-50 (bearing clearances and such) and so I just decided to run what Roger ran, weight-wise.
I got the Joe Gibbs Hotrod 15-50, so it should be a little easier on things on cold starts.
My reluctance to run synthetic is, every time I had a leak-free vehicle, when I switched to synthetic, I miraculously sprung leaks that just didn't exist before.
I know the Joe Gibbs oil is good, it was recommended by a couple top engine builders I talked to, but I may try synthetic sometime in the future.
When I mentioned dropping a weight to 10-40 because of the finer mesh screen, people commented on the fact that the engine may have been built to run on 20-50 (bearing clearances and such) and so I just decided to run what Roger ran, weight-wise.
I got the Joe Gibbs Hotrod 15-50, so it should be a little easier on things on cold starts.
My reluctance to run synthetic is, every time I had a leak-free vehicle, when I switched to synthetic, I miraculously sprung leaks that just didn't exist before.
I know the Joe Gibbs oil is good, it was recommended by a couple top engine builders I talked to, but I may try synthetic sometime in the future.
quote:Originally posted by bdud:
Mike do you know what camshaft you are running?
Flat tappet or roller?
You said you liked Joe Gibbs or Driven motor oil, but I do not understand your reluctance to use synthetic.
The Driven website has lots of information about oil, viscosity, ZDDP etc. For example this page..
http://www.drivenracingoil.com...er/guides/viscosity/
"Choosing a motor oil with a higher base oil viscosity index provides the benefit of improved flow when it is cold while maintaining oil film thickness at high temperatures. Conventional mineral base oils have a viscosity index in the range of 100, while synthetic base oils typically have a viscosity index in the range of 150."
"If you are running a conventional 20W-50, just by changing to an mPAO based 10W-40, you can reduce start-up wear without sacrificing high temperature durability or oil pressure."
Give Driven a call and maybe call Royal Purple and a few others. They will be able to inform you how oil has improved or changed.
OK, oil is in, car is ready for coolant.
The condition of the insides of the tubing didn't look too great, all a bit rusty, but still all useable, so I just hooked it all back up with new sections of rubber hose everywhere.
What's the best thing to run in my car?
I live an hour north of SanFracisco. It occasionally frosts, with a cold spell every couple years were it gets down to 15-17 degrees, where we usually get a cracked pipe or 2 on the house.
The garage is not heated, so it gets pretty cold in there, not sure if it gets cold enough to freeze water in my car though.
When I raced motorcycles, coolant wasn't allowed, so I used water and "Water Wetter" but I was always careful to run a heater in the garage to keep things from freezing.
On my car, it's time to fill it up with coolant.
I'd be fine with water and "Water Wetter", or running antifreeze and water.
What's the best water to use? I have an aluminum radiator that already has a pinhole leak that I fixed with "Stops Leaks" (I hope now that it's been empty for a while that it still works), but I want to put the correct water in the car.
I have an RO system I can dig out of storage, I can buy the different waters sold at the store, I can buy the pre-mixed 1/2&1/2 stuff, or I can buy antifreeze and add water.
I'd prefer to put whatever would cause the least amount of further damage to my already degrading radiator.
The condition of the insides of the tubing didn't look too great, all a bit rusty, but still all useable, so I just hooked it all back up with new sections of rubber hose everywhere.
What's the best thing to run in my car?
I live an hour north of SanFracisco. It occasionally frosts, with a cold spell every couple years were it gets down to 15-17 degrees, where we usually get a cracked pipe or 2 on the house.
The garage is not heated, so it gets pretty cold in there, not sure if it gets cold enough to freeze water in my car though.
When I raced motorcycles, coolant wasn't allowed, so I used water and "Water Wetter" but I was always careful to run a heater in the garage to keep things from freezing.
On my car, it's time to fill it up with coolant.
I'd be fine with water and "Water Wetter", or running antifreeze and water.
What's the best water to use? I have an aluminum radiator that already has a pinhole leak that I fixed with "Stops Leaks" (I hope now that it's been empty for a while that it still works), but I want to put the correct water in the car.
I have an RO system I can dig out of storage, I can buy the different waters sold at the store, I can buy the pre-mixed 1/2&1/2 stuff, or I can buy antifreeze and add water.
I'd prefer to put whatever would cause the least amount of further damage to my already degrading radiator.
There is no rocket science required here. Use pre-mixed "aluminum" compatible 50/50 anti-freeze.
If you freeze up and have threaded in "freeze plugs" then you WILL CRACK THE BLOCK. Some engine builders install them over the pressed in freeze plugs because they feel they stiffen and strengthen the block.
It's easy to tell what you have. Stick your head up in there and check the freeze plugs. If you see something that looks like a big Allen socket plug (which it is) then the block has been modified by the builder.
If you have the pressed in cad plated steel plugs then that is stock. Theoretically they are supposed to pop out if the engine freezes to reduce the likeliness that the expanding frozen coolant will expand to the extent that it cracks the block.
SOMETIMES that works.
Why chance that. Use 50/50 anti freeze.
The more expensive GM qualification stuff theoretically is better for aluminum.
If you read your 50/50 Prestone information, it will say it is safe for aluminum as well. I use that. No problems with it.
I do have WaterWetter in the mix but that is really for additional cooling consideration.
Since you are running the steel radiator pipes put in some "rust inhibitor". That should help some.
What I have done as well as many others is install the stainless pipes. That way you should never have to worry anything about them any more. There is already enough to stress anyone out on worrying about what can happen in this car.
Just make sure you have tow insurance. Then go drive the thing.
This car IS as reliable as any car ever made. The negatives are largely hype by the "Chicken Littles" of the World.
If you freeze up and have threaded in "freeze plugs" then you WILL CRACK THE BLOCK. Some engine builders install them over the pressed in freeze plugs because they feel they stiffen and strengthen the block.
It's easy to tell what you have. Stick your head up in there and check the freeze plugs. If you see something that looks like a big Allen socket plug (which it is) then the block has been modified by the builder.
If you have the pressed in cad plated steel plugs then that is stock. Theoretically they are supposed to pop out if the engine freezes to reduce the likeliness that the expanding frozen coolant will expand to the extent that it cracks the block.
SOMETIMES that works.
Why chance that. Use 50/50 anti freeze.
The more expensive GM qualification stuff theoretically is better for aluminum.
If you read your 50/50 Prestone information, it will say it is safe for aluminum as well. I use that. No problems with it.
I do have WaterWetter in the mix but that is really for additional cooling consideration.
Since you are running the steel radiator pipes put in some "rust inhibitor". That should help some.
What I have done as well as many others is install the stainless pipes. That way you should never have to worry anything about them any more. There is already enough to stress anyone out on worrying about what can happen in this car.
Just make sure you have tow insurance. Then go drive the thing.
This car IS as reliable as any car ever made. The negatives are largely hype by the "Chicken Littles" of the World.
Well,
The sky has already fallen on me, so Chicken Little is already squished.
My thoughts were like you've said, 50/50 antifreeze and water, but my main question was What Water?
I can go to the store and buy purified water, I have an RO system and make some RO water up for the car.
The radiator already has a pinhole leak that I fixed with Stops-Leaks, but I expect I'll be replacing the radiator sometime in the future.
The tubes rear of the firewall all looked pretty good, the long straight pipes under the car could have looked better, but everything was still functional, rusty, but functional.
Eventually I'll probably slowly replace everything, either as it konks out, or as I maintain the car.
Fluidyne just called back and said "purified water" from the store, and antifreeze, 50-50.
How much water sould I buy?
The sky has already fallen on me, so Chicken Little is already squished.
My thoughts were like you've said, 50/50 antifreeze and water, but my main question was What Water?
I can go to the store and buy purified water, I have an RO system and make some RO water up for the car.
The radiator already has a pinhole leak that I fixed with Stops-Leaks, but I expect I'll be replacing the radiator sometime in the future.
The tubes rear of the firewall all looked pretty good, the long straight pipes under the car could have looked better, but everything was still functional, rusty, but functional.
Eventually I'll probably slowly replace everything, either as it konks out, or as I maintain the car.
Fluidyne just called back and said "purified water" from the store, and antifreeze, 50-50.
How much water sould I buy?
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
There is no rocket science required here. Use pre-mixed "aluminum" compatible 50/50 anti-freeze.
If you freeze up and have threaded in "freeze plugs" then you WILL CRACK THE BLOCK. Some engine builders install them over the pressed in freeze plugs because they feel they stiffen and strengthen the block.
It's easy to tell what you have. Stick your head up in there and check the freeze plugs. If you see something that looks like a big Allen socket plug (which it is) then the block has been modified by the builder.
If you have the pressed in cad plated steel plugs then that is stock. Theoretically they are supposed to pop out if the engine freezes to reduce the likeliness that the expanding frozen coolant will expand to the extent that it cracks the block.
SOMETIMES that works.
Why chance that. Use 50/50 anti freeze.
The more expensive GM qualification stuff theoretically is better for aluminum.
If you read your 50/50 Prestone information, it will say it is safe for aluminum as well. I use that. No problems with it.
I do have WaterWetter in the mix but that is really for additional cooling consideration.
Since you are running the steel radiator pipes put in some "rust inhibitor". That should help some.
What I have done as well as many others is install the stainless pipes. That way you should never have to worry anything about them any more. There is already enough to stress anyone out on worrying about what can happen in this car.
Just make sure you have tow insurance. Then go drive the thing.
This car IS as reliable as any car ever made. The negatives are largely hype by the "Chicken Littles" of the World.
50/50 is premixed with the water already mixed with the anti-freeze.
It means it is 50% anti-freeze and 50% water (distilled).
You put it in just the way you buy it.
It is already mixed with distilled water with theoretically no impurities in it.
It means it is 50% anti-freeze and 50% water (distilled).
You put it in just the way you buy it.
It is already mixed with distilled water with theoretically no impurities in it.
quote:How much water should I buy?
The Pantera cooling system holds 24 liters (6 3/8 US Gallons) of coolant. So pick up 3 gallons of your purified (not RO) water and 3 gallons of anti-freeze. Or, just buy 6 gallons of 50/50 anti-freeze which is pre-mixed with water.
For what its worth, I think that Stops Leaks probably degrades your overall cooling ability on a car that likely has marginal cooling capacity when equipped with a big motor like yours (and yes, even with an upgraded cooling system). A leak is a leak is a leak. As soon as you get that running right the first thing on your to-do list should be to get that radiator fixed and the system purged of Stops Leaks. You can go online and read some horror stories of the use of Stops Leaks.
I researched about the Stops-Leaks stuff before using it.
I asked my friend who IS Korbel's racing program, he does it all, builds the cars, drives the transports, races the cars, everything. He said he drops a thing of Stops Leaks into his new engines and runs it in everything, just good insurance. If he runs, I'll run it.
The radiator will be being replaced sometime soon I suspect anyways. It's already sprung one leak on me.
I just redid the whole back half of the water pipe system, so when the radiator craps out, I'll replace it, and the other front tubes, and I'll have a completely new coolant system in the car.
I asked my friend who IS Korbel's racing program, he does it all, builds the cars, drives the transports, races the cars, everything. He said he drops a thing of Stops Leaks into his new engines and runs it in everything, just good insurance. If he runs, I'll run it.
The radiator will be being replaced sometime soon I suspect anyways. It's already sprung one leak on me.
I just redid the whole back half of the water pipe system, so when the radiator craps out, I'll replace it, and the other front tubes, and I'll have a completely new coolant system in the car.
I've heard of this before too, i.e., the race teams using stop leak as a precaution.
Iron heads had (still do) have the reputation of developing leaks int the valve ports because they have been maxed out by porting and the walls left thin as a result.
It's ok to use as long as the leaks are small and you aren't clogging up the flow tubes in the radiators with the stuff.
I'd use it for now, do a major flush job when you do the cooling system?
The only thing left to worry about then would be the engine and the heater core.
You are going to change everything else out anyway with majority of the material getting cleaned out.
Iron heads had (still do) have the reputation of developing leaks int the valve ports because they have been maxed out by porting and the walls left thin as a result.
It's ok to use as long as the leaks are small and you aren't clogging up the flow tubes in the radiators with the stuff.
I'd use it for now, do a major flush job when you do the cooling system?
The only thing left to worry about then would be the engine and the heater core.
You are going to change everything else out anyway with majority of the material getting cleaned out.
There are heater lines under the car with valves on them. I assume they're turned off.
I don't plan on using the heater anyways
I don't plan on using the heater anyways
Happy to report lots of progress.
Everything under the car is done. Crossmember, frame brace, actually, I still need to zip-tie my E-brake cables up and out of the way, but that's 2 minutes of work.
Today I got the distributor in myself, plug wires plugged in, hopefully worked out my air cleaner situation, (I'll know in a couple days).
All that's really left to do is confirm oil pressure with no plugs, install plugs after oil pressure is confirmed, add coolant, put the air cleaners back on, and probably a couple other things I've forgotten, but it's as close as I'm going with this alone.
I'm gaining confidence as I work on this car, shit, after working on this car I should be able to fix anything!
Still though, there's just a lot of stuff going on, even the air cleaners take a bit of time to R&R. It is CLOSE to running again though.
I hope tomorrow, if I can get some supervision, and a timing light, we should have the car running at least well enough for me to take things from that point without need of anyone's help.
I also plan on forming a relationship with a shop that Chuck recommended that DOES do work on our cars (Every other shop I called in town won't work on Panteras, just won't even take the job on-kind of understandably) but life is good.
Progress is being made, the car will run in the next day or so, I'll then be spending a few more days buttoning up the rest of the car, cleaning, checking, and hopefully begin my new relationship with my new love.
Everything under the car is done. Crossmember, frame brace, actually, I still need to zip-tie my E-brake cables up and out of the way, but that's 2 minutes of work.
Today I got the distributor in myself, plug wires plugged in, hopefully worked out my air cleaner situation, (I'll know in a couple days).
All that's really left to do is confirm oil pressure with no plugs, install plugs after oil pressure is confirmed, add coolant, put the air cleaners back on, and probably a couple other things I've forgotten, but it's as close as I'm going with this alone.
I'm gaining confidence as I work on this car, shit, after working on this car I should be able to fix anything!
Still though, there's just a lot of stuff going on, even the air cleaners take a bit of time to R&R. It is CLOSE to running again though.
I hope tomorrow, if I can get some supervision, and a timing light, we should have the car running at least well enough for me to take things from that point without need of anyone's help.
I also plan on forming a relationship with a shop that Chuck recommended that DOES do work on our cars (Every other shop I called in town won't work on Panteras, just won't even take the job on-kind of understandably) but life is good.
Progress is being made, the car will run in the next day or so, I'll then be spending a few more days buttoning up the rest of the car, cleaning, checking, and hopefully begin my new relationship with my new love.
If I can get a helper, experienced or not, I'm going to fire the car up today.
I have the manual, so I can at least just read it and go through what it says about filling the coolant (although Chuck said he had his own way that worked well), but today my goal is to get someone to help me with cranking the car over (confirm oil pressure), double checking for TDC, filling the coolant, and she's ready to fire up.
I'm hoping someone is free today to help me for a bit to finish these last things.
I'm going to cut and install the air cleaners so they fit but with a 2" gap, which I'll temporoarily tape over with duct tape.
I have the manual, so I can at least just read it and go through what it says about filling the coolant (although Chuck said he had his own way that worked well), but today my goal is to get someone to help me with cranking the car over (confirm oil pressure), double checking for TDC, filling the coolant, and she's ready to fire up.
I'm hoping someone is free today to help me for a bit to finish these last things.
I'm going to cut and install the air cleaners so they fit but with a 2" gap, which I'll temporoarily tape over with duct tape.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
...I have the manual, so I can at least just read it and go through what it says about filling the coolant...
I would recomend searching this site especially the this sticky
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...50045562/m/346105744
If Snow White's coolant has be modified, it would be interesting if you could describe
Got her cranked over with no plugs until the oil pressure gauge moved. Once it moved it quickly went right to 20lbs, so I'm happy I now have oil pressure.
I actually have the rest of the car buttoned up as well, but I'm going to take the extra couple hours to remove the air cleaners, and double/triple check the rotor direction and plug wire positions.
I double checked them when I installed everything, but there's that little bit of doubt i still have (the last time I did this was 30 years ago) that I'm going to go back and triple check it all.
Then, with plugs and coolant, she should be ready to fire up.
I'm going to go buy a timing light tomorrow too.
I actually have the rest of the car buttoned up as well, but I'm going to take the extra couple hours to remove the air cleaners, and double/triple check the rotor direction and plug wire positions.
I double checked them when I installed everything, but there's that little bit of doubt i still have (the last time I did this was 30 years ago) that I'm going to go back and triple check it all.
Then, with plugs and coolant, she should be ready to fire up.
I'm going to go buy a timing light tomorrow too.
Any tips on timing the car with the timing light?
There's white marks all over the harmonic balancer, as well as marks on the flywheel and bellhousing.
It's a mechanical advance distributor, no vacum chamber, no vacum line.
SO, at idle I should look for what, maybe 10 degrees advance?
Then at 3000 I should be at full advance which should be somewhere around what, 26-30?
Roger told me to tune the car by ear, throw away the timing light, (I actually am off to BUY a timing light right now) but he may aalso have been "ear timing" the car with the stuck advance mechanism on the old diz, so this time I'm going with the timing light and see if i can't get some data.
There's white marks all over the harmonic balancer, as well as marks on the flywheel and bellhousing.
It's a mechanical advance distributor, no vacum chamber, no vacum line.
SO, at idle I should look for what, maybe 10 degrees advance?
Then at 3000 I should be at full advance which should be somewhere around what, 26-30?
Roger told me to tune the car by ear, throw away the timing light, (I actually am off to BUY a timing light right now) but he may aalso have been "ear timing" the car with the stuck advance mechanism on the old diz, so this time I'm going with the timing light and see if i can't get some data.