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172 replies

Erica needs to get hosed.....

mangustamangustaMember
All,

New 1974 car to us, been sittin' for a couple of years with minimal use. Pump was replaced but few miles since. No more than about 10-12K. I want to refit the heater hoses and such. Keeping this out of the engine "fluids" section cuz we can just talk rubber parts replacements. She's been a bad car so far....hopefully can resolve her issues and change her name to Susan soon!*(days of our lives ref...) Smiler

Radiator replaced/rebuilt by Hall by second to last owner...again 10-12K on it, 10 years back. Front Pipes look to have been repainted at that time also.

If you know me, you know I tell good-n-long stories and type the same....so bear with me.....!

To get this all started, ...started last week when wife and I tried to bring the car home from our shop about 53 miles away. (for the first time out since rebuilding the brakes after purchasing the car) We made it a mile or so....belt had been squealing on and off....hoped for more off....until finally heard a little "thump" near my elbow and I watched my AMP gauge register a large discharge....."Crap...blew a belt"..... So back to the shop....but not before the car started to overheat.....that last 1/4 mile had pucker factor on high......!!!!

Cooled it down, called a local member about what tank is what.....of course my shop manual is at home....and I'm not! Filled up with water and put it away in the shop.

Retrieved car with trailer last Sat. No incidents to report until after about an hour of sitting in the driveway, wife called me (I was returning trailer) to tell me that the emergency lights were flashing! CRAP! Blew the E-flasher switch.....and I wasn't even near the car. Advised to use "toothpick fix"...only to hear "we have no toothpicks!" Ugh. I have some in the truck.... She tried taping it etc....didn't work. Tooth pick worked, popped out later..... still in driveway.
I will admit that I touched the switch when I was in the car the couple nights before, in the shop, before I started it....and it took a couple of stabs with the finger before they shut off. I guess the heat from the sun took care of it......
Will need to look at switch yet......not now.
Have spent the last couple of days reading stickies, looking for this and that in the car, but can't find out some important bits.
Ordered two new belts, one for spare. Don't make Greenstripe belts small enuf.... Frowner (needed 11AV1030 or 40 but all the parts store had was longer..or way shorter..and their belt stretcher was broken...)
Pulleys are all in alignment, alternator turns over well, water pump not funky. Probably neglect led to this failure. Gatorback belts should be here by weeks end. Ordered two.

I have determined that the heater water shut off valve is stuck. Needs the Mike Daily overhaul! On the list... (Thanks to Mike for this info!!!) He spec'd 5/8" ID hoses for replacement! Mine in car are 3/4")

I want to replace most if not all of the rubber heater hoses. Most of the large 1-3/8 hoses appear to be Greenstripe already except for the one hose piece connecting the lower pipe to the pump inlet pipe. Looks like 1.5" hose smashed down to fit 1-3/8 pipe!!! What's up with that!? Deal with that later too....I have more greenstripe hose to use....left over from Goose adventures!

So the heater hoses look to be Motorcraft brand hose, but with a 092793 date stamped into them... I see notes in the owner records about replacing heater hoses, but now wonder "which heater hoses"? The ones up at the console? or the engine hoses????? 1993 is ......24 years back...... Still nice and supple, BUT if you pinch them, you can hear cracking....from whatever is coating the hoses internally....sounds like time for new clean hose!

BUT.....what size hose do I need? I appear to have 5/8" hose in some places and 3/4" in others!?? I checked the hose tubes coming up out of the console and found that they measured just larger than 11/16" (18mm) but not yet a full 3/4" but the heater valve fittings and the heater core fitting look to be more like 5/8".

At the lower section of the engine the pipes would/could/should be the same 11/16-ish (18mm) as observed in the cabin...but the engine water pump fitting is certainly 5/8".....not so sure about the vertical block fitting! I hope it is 5/8".

OK, pause for some math.... 18mm=.710" 3/4=.750" or a mere spark plug gap .040" larger...to squish down to 18mm BUT .125" (1/8") to squash down to 5/8=.625" which is .085" smaller than 18mm....so need to stretch the 5/8" a tad over 1/16" (.625") to fit the 18mm parts.

So far I have the following fittings:
Two engine- 5/8" hopefully on both
Four heater pipe tubes- 18mm
Water valve-one connection- .600" (unknown size in orig post)
Heater core end- one connection- .625" (unknown size in orig post)

*** 2-4 fittings unknown- Expansion tank to radiator????
I have no idea how this hose gets to the front or back.....all one long piece of hose, or more intermediate metal piping and two pieces of hose????? Size of ends?

I'm thinking better to stretch a little bit than it is to try and crush a hose to get smaller......

Anyone have a heater valve and or heater core fitting handy to check sizes? (edit 9/21 OK, did this today....recorded above.)

I haven't popped my system open yet to drain it.....keep in mind that wife has never ridden in car yet....so as soon as belts arrive, I would like to take her for a good spin!!!! She needs to get her "zoom zoom" on......then she'll be happy for a while.......while I dismantle the entire car....!

Has anyone used the whiz bang blue "5/8" ID SILICONE 4-PLY HIGH-TEMP MIL-SPEC COOLANT HEATER HOSE PUROSIL SAE J20 R1" hose in their cars? This crap is expensive (About $40 for 12'shipped) but looks like it would handle bends well just no sharp burs on your pipes or fittings!!!! Sand them down.....if in doubt! Would probably outlast me....!

Years ago, one could purchase the cast iron water pump rotor with the solid vanes ala Boss 302 and such. Has anyone seen where these are available anywhere?
I also used to see round discs that one could DIY this same effect by pop riveting the disc to the rear of the steel vanes of a standard rotor... anyone seen these? Would be easy enuf to fab....next time the water pump goes out! I was gonna take it out thinking that the timing chain surely needs to be replaced...but with less than 2 degrees of crank movement, me thinks that someone put in a dual roller chain somewhere along the way!!!! Now no reason to disturb it!

Ok, enuf for now! Will post other issues in other posts....
Thank-you for reading along!
Steve
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mangustamangustaMember
OK, a good day in the garage!

Spent mostly upside down under the dash getting the heater core switch out!!! I can't believe they really need a 23mm nut on that flare fitting......

My valve was locked up solid. In removing hoses I got some amount of water out...disconnected the hoses at the engine and water pump.

Discovered that the fitting into the block is pretty ugly. Gonna see if I can get a new one and somehow get it into the block....providing I can get the old one out! There is nothing but rust holding a new hose onto the hose bib!

Used paper towels to sop up fluids...tried shop vac on the heater hoses.....not sure if it worked properly....acting like hoses are plugged!.....need to search for shut off valves!!!!

Left hose connection under dash looks reasonable. Right connection that goes up to heater valve looks ugly..... about 50% eaten away. Could benefit from new end.....probably need to trim off some of the scarfy section and double hose clamp it!

Heater valve was locked up. Was able to get it apart using article on Pantera Place. Messed up and didn't mark the parts as specified....but this thing either goes together with the passage 180 degrees out.....or partially open at full open or partially closed at closed.

I'm voting for partially open at full open....the copper hose into the heater core isn't all that large.......and I know that we want the valve to shut off the water since it shares the same spot as the evaporator for the AC....so if the valve was open, it would be working against the AC!!


Here is a question for the experts! When the heater hoses are shut off with valves, the Clevelands and Windsors tend to capture water in the water pump and start to cavitate! ...leading to overheating!

How does this setup in the Pantera allow for "some" water flow thru the system to remove the air bubbles!????

In Ford cars, there is an "H" in the hoses just prior to the shut off valve in front of the heater core. Sometimes there is an 1/8" hole in the valve to allow some water to circulate.

This valve does have a tiny slot in it....but when fully closed, this slot looks to be covered....but I did not reconnect to the cable yet to see just how much "on" or "off" I get.


Any ideas????

Steve
mangustamangustaMember
OK, here is a new question.

We know that water pumps' external hose connections all suck....they don't pump outwards...... The block mating castings/holes are for "pumping water into the block". Our radiator supplies water to the pump via suction caused by the pump and that water is then forced into the block casting.

Same for the heater core! Water is sucked into the water pump from the core....and the core is supplied via the block fitting near the alternator adjusting bracket's anchor bolt.

I cannot for the life of me find any complete drawings of the heater core circuit to be certain that the circuit is properly hosed...

My water pump hose (main suction for core) connects to the left under car pipe, which connects to the copper (open) line to the heater core.

The block fitting (supply of hot water to core) goes up the right under floor pipe to the water valve and then into the heater core.

Can anyone confirm that this is connected properly? Thanks!!!

OK, off to the parts store in the morning for a new o-ring for the water valve, and a couple of small hoses to reconnect the heater core to the under car pipes.

I would love to put shut-off valves up behind the console face....but I can't see where anyone could get to them easily...those black side panels seal access up too well!!!

Cheers!
Steve
jfb05177jfb05177Member
Thanks for sharing the detail writeup of your work.


quote:
Originally posted by Mangusta:...
Here is a question for the experts! When the heater hoses are shut off with valves, the Clevelands and Windsors tend to capture water in the water pump and start to cavitate! ...leading to overheating!

How does this setup in the Pantera allow for "some" water flow thru the system to remove the air bubbles!????

....


I thought that was the function of the skirted thermostat and "restrictor", to allow a large flow through the block when cold and thermostat "closed"?




IF
you are really determined to remove as much air from the coolant as possible, then making a revision to the coolant system might be your answer
the first is as built
the second is converting to true swirl and pressure tank design
third and forth replaces the in cabin heater shutoff with an "H" type heater valve that provides recirculation

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mangustamangustaMember
OK, I guess I was too vanilla in my question.

How does the 351C get rid of bubbles in the water pump? I know Bosswrench preaches that certain pumps must be drilled for this or that...and that some are better dealing with cavitation than others....and that if you disconnect your heater on a stock pump, that you should loop the block outlet to the pump inlet to cure this condition.

SO, when you shut the water valve OR turn off the inline valves you installed.....how does the stock pump deal with air bubbles and potential cavitation issue????


As for the rest of the system.....all I can say is one pile of poo at a time please! Smiler Smiler Smiler

I can deal with the main cooling system later....I don't think it is broken.....at least too badly..... I like the thought behind turning the pressure tank into a swirl...and feeding into the overflow tank, like a more modern system. BUT, not today.

Right now, I want to get the heater system sorted out.....everyone seems to just gloss over it......it is simple....until it dorks up!...... or you close your water valves and then next thing you have is "Old Faithful" out of every orifice in your engine compartment! Don't ask how I know about this......! Smiler

Off for hoses and an o-ring!
Thanks all!
Steve
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Steve, constant, persistent bleeding from the top of the radiator is my current recourse. I've tried all the trick jack-up-one-end of the car methods, and IMHO, NOTHING works as well as simply bleeding a refilled radiator over the course of several days. I do use a special plastic filler funnel made by Lisle that literally clamps onto the surge tank neck and holds 1/2 gallon of water for the initial fill & start-up.

I once replaced our rad, filled it, got a massive air lock in the pump when the engine was started, so I bled it twice more that day. Next day, I bled it again (more air) & we left for 'Vegas. That night after an uneventful 450-mile drive at highway speeds, I found yet MORE air so I bled it a third time in the hotel parking lot. Checking a 4th time before we left 'Vegas to come home, I finally found no air.

I believe 'some' air is partially soluble in tap water; think of burping a water bed- the same phenomenon shows up over months as micro-bubbles of air slowly condense into bigger ones that can cause trouble with marginal cooling systems.
mangustamangustaMember
OK, back on track here....heater hoses.....

I call this my "Oh am I glad that I got this out of my system...." ....or "I can't believe there was this much sh*t in there..." or "Not exactly panning for gold...but it felt a lot like it!"

I rehab'd my heater water valve with the Napa O-ring suggested in the article on Pantara place about rebuilding said valve.

I deviated on the hose thing...... 18mm is only .060 larger than a 5/8" hose....and the 5/8" hose will stretch if warmed up a bit and lubed with either some silicone grease (ONLY IF YOUR HOSE BARBS ARE STILL GOOD!!!) or water if the barbs are not so good.....

I have one kinda good and one that isn't there any more.

I bought a single NAPA 9808 hose, about $13 and made the two hoses for under the heater out of it.

I cut the 90 degree portion about 1-1/2" off of the short side to attach to the heater valve (which is undersized at .600"...) and then cut the length as needed to hit the LH heater pipe.

The remaining straight piece of hose is a trim to fit the RH heater pipe to the belled section of the heater core sticking out of the LH side of the heater box. Belled section is 5/8" and is about 2" long, then reduces to about 3/8" and goes up and right turns into the heater box.

So, fast forward to today.... when I was removing the old hose sections, I found LOTS of chunk-o-rust in them....making me question to things...1) previous maintenance by owners, 2) what is still in the various parts of the heater system, and 3) I know, I said two....how can I clean this out!!?

Today, I hooked up a garden hose to one of those universal "engine flush" "T" fittings that was in one of the water hoses from the engine. I plugged the other portion of that hose, and also the end of the other hose. (One hose to water pump...one hose to block.) I left them connected to the under car tubes....in hopes of flushing out the tubes AND perhaps some of the garp that may have reached the heater core...fingers crossed.

I pressurized the whole affair by carefully turning the water on....keep in mind that some community water systems can have some SERIOUS PSI pressures.....and the LAST THING I WANT is to blow the snot out of the heater core!

So, water turned on.....I get a dribble of crap out of the other hose...dark black water....ugh. But a dribble...some coughs and spits...then nothing much but the hose started to swell...not good. Water off.

I had a second one of those water flush parts (actually an unused complete set that I found somewhere) that gave me the female to female adapter to fit my garden hose to this mess, and another "T" fitting.

I reversed the garden hose to the other hose, plugged/unplugged the two hoses accordingly and proceeded to push water back into the system via the hose that was previously was the drain.

More dribble, coughing, spitting, dark garpy water and chunks...big chunks...then the flow became less than a dribble and the hoses started swelling.

Water off..release pressure, mop up mess on floor, swap hoses again....and again and again and again... Occasionally I could hear water gurgling in different sections below the console..... At one point when there was still little flow, I squeezed the rubber hose right where it attaches to the under car tube...and I felt LOTS of crunching...but I heard stuff moving....well it plugged up the "T" now. Removed the "T" hit the pressure again and started squeezing....got LOTS of crap!!!! Yea!.....

Proceed to swap pressured water back and forth several times more until water was running clean into my drain pan!

I double checked how much flow my hose was putting out for opening the on/off valve on the house for about a third of a turn....well it wasn't much flow. SO...I upped it to about a turn and a half to two turns....and got a good flow, but not full blast....about what I would expect out of a heater hose...good solid flow.

Ran this level of water back and forth a few times and got more garp, but it cleaned up quickly!

Below is a pic of my results....clean water! Clean water in pan and clean coming out of hose!
Will post more pic's of results....
S

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mangustamangustaMember
SO, all of this mess got me thinking.....Hate when I do this....

1) I wish I had flushed the tubes out while I had the connections under the dash open. I had tried to blow water thru previously...but heater valve was still stuck in place...probably closed.... AND, I'm fuzzy on what I did exactly but the results were NOT what I expected....

2) I wish I had flushed out the heater core while it was disconnected.....

3) Is there good way to roto-rooter the tubes under the car..... Seems like there is large pulley in the way and a harmonic balancer that would hinder this from being easy....! What is....

4) NOW, I believe that A) the engine is full of crap, and likely the radiator is also!!!!

IN light of #4, I can see justification for putting one of those see thru inline filters that guys have put in the larger 1-3/8" hose that feeds the radiator (thermostat outlet pipe?) to keep crap from the radiator! I think that pipe goes over to the pressure tank first...then to the radiator...

AND......I would love to know if the same company makes a similar device for 5/8" hoses??????????

If anyone knows, please chime in here!

OK, and a picture of heater valve marked to show full open and full closed for my reference when upside down working on this crazy....

More to follow...

S

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mangustamangustaMember
Last one for tonite....

RH hose in place, Water Valve in place.

I had to be careful of the wire end of the control cable. It liked to get hung up on the top of the LH hose! I did not add the bent wire end...it was there already...just had to bend it out of the way slightly.

Getting to that top fitting on the water valve was a beeeyatch!!!! Hex on the valve body is 19mm (3/4") but the hex on the nut was 15/16" ish!!! Talk about 10lbs of wrenches on a 5lb nut!!!

Hopefully this job will last the lifetime of this ownership!!!

S Smiler

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panteradougpanteradougMember
DIN 1 is the size of the opening needed BUT because of the angle, the DEPTH is critical. At best you are going to get the lower corner to hit the floor.

Simply put, two items can not occupy the same space at the same time.

The wiring harness is now stiff and does not like to relocate itself easily and of course you have the plumbing in there to deal with.

Use a hair drier to loosen up the harness wires before you try to move them.

I constantly have issues with wires disconnecting themselves from the switches in the console and grounding themselves out.

I definitely can now identify the smell of a Lucas wiring harness shorting out and a Detomaso one. Either one turns my stomach.

Every time I think it is "corrected" and ready to go, I get another one shorting. Jon Haas doesn't want to talk to me about this any more.

I won't even let the car sit over night with the electrical system "ON". I have a battery kill switch.

It's not the harness itself, it is the connections to the switches.

Others don't necessarily know what I am talking about because if there is an issue, they just take it to "the guy" to fix.

No such thing here...Doogala fix.
mangustamangustaMember
PD,

I have a radio that is 5-3/4 inches long on one corner measurement and 6+ on the other....guess who goes "down"! Thankfully the radio is properly oriented such that I can read the face plate right side up.....

What is concerning...is the install manual saying don't install more than a 60 degree down angle (at a normal plane...!) so mounting it sideways may REALLY mess up the CD player!

NB:Test sideways radio operation...use Celine Dion disc to test....not CW or RnR discs....!

I have stared at that mass of wiring behind the panel.....and it scares me too! Just the numbers of wires.....and the way that they are or are not restrained! I need to tie up the radiator fan wires....they just sort of hang on their way to the switch.....seems very odd. But then, I think I had odd people working on this car in the past....so all bets are off!!!

I'll clean it up.......tie it up.....make it mine!

S
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Mangusta:
PD,



I have stared at that mass of wiring behind the panel.....and it scares me too!

I'll clean it up.......tie it up.....make it mine!

S


Soon you will get good enough to distinguish the different smells of the different color wires shorting. That's good. Saves diagnostic time.

I think a radio WITHOUT a cd player is smaller?

You know these techno gizmos have just taken their tolls in so many ways over the years?
liv1sliv1sMember
quote:
Originally posted by Mangusta:
SO, all of this mess got me thinking.....Hate when I do this....

1) I wish I had flushed the tubes out while I had the connections under the dash open. I had tried to blow water thru previously...but heater valve was still stuck in place...probably closed.... AND, I'm fuzzy on what I did exactly but the results were NOT what I expected....

2) I wish I had flushed out the heater core while it was disconnected.....

3) Is there good way to roto-rooter the tubes under the car..... Seems like there is large pulley in the way and a harmonic balancer that would hinder this from being easy....! What is....

4) NOW, I believe that A) the engine is full of crap, and likely the radiator is also!!!!

IN light of #4, I can see justification for putting one of those see thru inline filters that guys have put in the larger 1-3/8" hose that feeds the radiator (thermostat outlet pipe?) to keep crap from the radiator! I think that pipe goes over to the pressure tank first...then to the radiator...

AND......I would love to know if the same company makes a similar device for 5/8" hoses??????????

If anyone knows, please chime in here!

OK, and a picture of heater valve marked to show full open and full closed for my reference when upside down working on this crazy....

More to follow...

S


If you have access to a lift or otherwise enjoy working under you car on jack stands, I used this gizmo to backflush the cooling system and heater core. To powerflush the engine, remove the thermostat first. You should chemically flush the system first after draining the old coolant.

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mangustamangustaMember
Last few days have been spent pulling metal tubes and sorta cleaning some stuff up....messing other stuff up....(tried to put in new rear deck shocks....and decklid hinge mount took a dump on me....already been fixed once.....lost some paint....)

But, some good too!

Had the radiator checked for leaks and the metal surrounds re-attached. Unit is a Hall "45 degree" unit. It also had unique front stainless tubes installed so that you need NO rubber 90's!!!

I suspected there were some tubes leaking but the core that I could see via the inlet/outlet ports looked good, very few big chunks of garp!

But, radiator guy sez that the tubes were good, but he increased my flow by about 30% by cleaning out the tubes!!! Apparently there wasn't large stuff...but there was small stuff circulating about...!!!

When I pulled the temp sensor switches off of the unit, one of the fiber gaskets tore....so spent some time cruising the internet today to find some 2mm thick copper versions. Had to buy 25 from Grainger....but was still cheaper than buying 3 off of eBay! IN case anyone needs a couple....!!!

Also ordered a 5/8" in-line filter from Northern Supply to try out. Not sure how it will do....more on that later....

Picked up 10' of 5/8" heater hose from the local AP store

Ordered a 3' length of Gates Green Stripe in 1-3/8" ID off of eBay to make tube connectors.

Found a few more nice metric hose clamps in the stuff from the previous owner AND, some 1-1/2" super duper hose for the connection from the under car tube to the water pump inlet.

More.....

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mangustamangustaMember
Cleaned a lot of loose refuse from the top of the engine near the water pipe/t-stat housing.

Also removed the block drain plugs from either side of the block and actually got some clean water out of them! ...and some not so clean....

Will flush more of this out tomorrow or Friday.

What my BIG job was.....was to make up my mind on the block heater hose connection.....it was crappy at best.....

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mangustamangustaMember
Soooo, I pulled the pulleys off the water pump and crank....and then pulled the water pump off.....

Got a new aluminum one from Rock Auto.com for a closeout price, along with a few other parts that were being closed out! T-stat housing gaskets, exhaust gaskets, timing cover gasket sets, water pump gaskets, full gasket set, oil pan gaskets, and a few other pieces that could come in handy along the way! Belts.....

Cleaned the garp up a bit more so that I could decide.....if I wanted to tackle this.....

So I removed the T-stat pipe while I thought about it some more.....

Then tested the brass thingy as an insert for a vice grips to hold against so that tube doesn't collapse while trying to remove it.....

Hosed area down with PB Blaster to influence some of the rusty bond....while I procrastinated longer.....

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mangustamangustaMember
OK, short story is that I won.....without needing to pull the engine out! It was not easy.....pardon me for not taking any pictures of the process.....

......but after chiselling with various chisels, and punches....getting the grinder out to be able to sharpen a punch to a pin prick....and more hammering and sucking left over water out with the shop vac...and THEN punching the remains into the water jacket...ooooohhh nooooo! Wasn't into taking pictures......

.....so time passed, I used my magnet on a stick to try and find the missing piece of the insert..... Finally after shining my flashlite in the hole....I determined that the cavity beneath the t-stat was part of this passageway!

Got a trusty piece of clothes hanger out and manged to locate the little piece of tin....and pushed it back into the hole area......and chiselled on it some more....trying to collapse it and either cut it in half or bend it in half.....

Finally, a thought hit me..... why don't I try to drag it into the area below the t-stat where the cavity gets bigger! Good idea!!! Was able to then retrieve it with the MOS (magnet on stick)!!!

Cleaned up the hole in the cast iron where chisels left marks and dragged the MOS around a bit to clean out more metal stuff....

Slathered the new metal insert (C5AZ-8555-A 5/8" by 2.5" long cut to length) with a little blue silicone and started digging for a big hammer.... Got the tube started carefully and then started wanging away! Stopped to put in my brass insert deal and continued to wail away......as much as you can in 5-6" of space!!!

Remember...window is just above you....!!!

I had a mark on the tube and it went in nice and smooth, actually fairly easily all considered....pushed it in about another 1/8" and decided to leave it there!!!

Taa daa!!!

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rockyrockyMember
Nice Work!

Sounds like fun.

PS> I believe there is typically a little P-Clamp that holds the dipstick against the block. It goes into the threaded hole in the head to the left of your new tube.

At least mine has one.

It is the thing that makes your valve covers much more difficult to remove with the engine in the car.

Rocky
mangustamangustaMember
Glad that went well!!!! I managed not to break anything else.....!

Tomorrow or Friday will clean up the timing cover plate a bit, degrease the water pump and harmonic balancer pulleys and bolts etc and anything else while I have the parts washer open.....

While I had some time....procrastinating about busting off this fitting......I tried something that I had noticed on Thomas T's post somewhere else on this forum.

He posted a pic of his EFI engine and I noticed that his GT5 engine used the stock Ford alternator bracket and adjuster to retain the alternator!

Since I had all of this apart... AND because I had a spare set of factory brackets on a spare engine......I decided to check it out!

So, in the pic below, you will see Ford factory 1970 bracket, spacer, bolt, 1973 adjuster arm (from the Pantera!) and the "normal belt" 10AV1040 size. The alternator is WAY out on the adjuster....so a stock belt (for a Mustang) is probably like an 10/11AV1030 or 1020 and would bring the alternator closer to the center of the opening.

I tried my cover and it seemed to fit without any clunking...... or scraping. I wasn't out to prove anything....just show that it would appear that normal Ford parts could be used in the case if you didn't want to use the DeTomaso crazy bracket to mount your alternator.

Now, this alternator is a late model R3(?) version with the built in regulator. As fitted, the wiring would not be able to plug into this as the opening faces the timing chain area of the block! BUTTTT, I think that if I were to re-clock the rear of the alternator about 120 degrees, life would be grand!!! And there isn't any reason that rotating the rear of this alternator shouldn't be possible from what I can tell! For all I know....someone already did that to make it work in this car/config....!

Anyway.....I think it looks like a potentially good fit!!!

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mangustamangustaMember
One more pic of three things......that were buggers!

1) Bottom left corner..... SQUARE headed block plug! From my experience, these NEVER come lose with a) open end wrench, b) closed box wrench, or c) 12 point sockets...... they all round off the corners! Today was NO different!

So, do I have a set of the sockets for the square headed fastners???? Why yes I do! Is it in your tool box? Why no it isn't! Please tell, where is it? In my other tool box down at my other shop some 53 miles south!

(I have never had one of these sockets in my regular box.....somewhere I bought one of those 69 piece socket sets with a mixture of SAE, metric, 6 point, 12 point...3/8, 1/4, 1/2" sizes....BUT it has 4 or 5 square nut sockets!!! .....and they sit there in my other roll around....so many miles away..... so OF COURSE, NOW is when I need one.)

But wait! My son's tool box is sitting off to the side of the garage.... He's getting ready to move out.....again......soon.....at least I hope soon.....I digress..... and I know that he got all sorts of sockets in the deal!!! So sure enuf, still in the plastic bags....I find the square drive sockets!!! SWWWWWEEEETTT!

Nice and easy does it.....and I was able to get both of the block drain plugs out of the block! And they can even be reused!!!!

Ok..
2) The fragment of the old heater hose connection that got pushed down into the block. That was not fun.....

3) The 160 degree t-stat that is NOT the proper T-stat for a Cleveland!!! It's going to get a proper one and a 190 temp! No messing around here!!!

Out for now!
Ciao!
Steve

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mangustamangustaMember
Rocky,

THANKS!!! That is good to know! The clamp thing is one of the many details that get slaughtered when you buy a car that has been driven and worked on by many mechanics!

The stock dipstick tubes in Mustangs etc also use that little clamp thing and the same hole! I think the alternator pivot bolt holds it in place as well! The clamp was normally spot welded in place.....not sure about Pantera version!

I'm still looking to see if this car got a set of closed chamber heads or not. One of the heads has a threaded insert in a rear hole that is not used on the front or rear of our cars....but may have been used on a regular car! So no matter how you mount that head on a Pantera, no reason to have put a thread insert in place!!???? Was this head on a "normal car" at one point in it's life?????

Fun stuff to try and figure out!

Next time I find a clamp in a junk yard that is loose from the dipstick, I may re-purpose it!!!

Cheers!
Steve
mangustamangustaMember
Alrighty! Been cleaning and digging and looking for stuff......

Ordered a new set of stainless pipes to replace the "reasonable condition" steel pipes that I removed from everywhere. The large pipes were all in great condition except for a couple of spots near the hose clamp retainer bumps where there was some rust thru.....

I've been able to experiment with most of the pipes and can post this next few posts with pic's of issues.

I have not established exact lengths for the rubber "unions" which will join all the steel sections together.....will update....

This is the sort of project where you put EVERYTHING in the car loose....then adjust...then tighten hose clamps!!!!

Keep in mind that this is a 74 car, and that the 71's (at least) have some differences like the heater hoses running up on the top of the shifter hump...and the AC hoses are in the rocker panel..... On the 74, the AC lines are on top of the shifter hump and heater lines run up the inside of the shifter hump!

Good:

My car came with a Hall 45 degree radiator and two stainless attaching tubes.
Sent radiator out to be checked, and have the outer tin shields soldered back on....a couple of the seams had popped loose on the tin. Came back with a good report....was perhaps 30% plugged but no reports of leaks and a roto-rooter job on the tubes was all good. Shop straightened out the tins and soldered them gooder than new!

So, since the two front tubes were on the car...they "should" go back on..... Murphy's law may dictate otherwise!

Long under car pipe replacements are most straight forward. You will need a cut off wheel or an air saw to cut the one remaining long tube so that you can get it out!

Note that the long tube is about 1" or so longer than the two piece tubes, but once union is installed comes out about the same. The new tubes equal the length of the original two pieces of tube.

I removed all of the rubber tube insulators since I purchased new ones..... Only perhaps 2 of the 8 were really funky....rest were good...

I found it best to put the long tube in the front section and the shorter ones in the rear.
This will put the "union" in the rear section.

Doing it with the union in the front was going to be difficult when using GreenStrip hose as the tubes get VERY close to the floor pan and might even rub. There was also one of those clamps for the brake line and a coolant bleed line right in the area also......looking to mess stuff up.... SOOO, I chose to put the long sections up front.

If you have a spray bottle of dish soap and water handy, it will make installation of the new hoses into the new rubber insulators! Hose them down and spray some more when things do not move.

I determined that 1" of hose PAST the hose clamp retainer bump is minimum to put a clamp on properly. SO, I marked all of the tubes with a 1" mark, a 1.5" mark, and a 2" mark to use as references when putting this all back together!

At the engine end, I stuck the tubes out just far enough to use the 1" mark that I made. It's tight up there.....so this can be adjusted longer as needed but no less than the 1" mark plus a 1/4" or so.

Lower pressure tank pipe: There is no longer a support welded onto the new pipe. I made one up out of some metal I had hanging around and fashioned an inverted "L", drilled and filed an oblong hole in it, and twisted it to have the proper angle so that I could retain it with a hose clamp to the tube...

This pipe also fit fairly well both on the tank end and the under car tube end. Now, I was supposed to get a metal 90 piece to make the bend at the UCT (under car tube), but it is on back order, so used a rubber 90 for now. I think trying to get the 90 and two short pieces of GreenStripe in there is going to be a mouthful!!!!! But the rubber 90 fit well.

Less Good
Pump to UCT This new piece is a bugger to fit properly. The tube is short on both ends about 3/8" from the original. While not measuring shorter in the straight section, it seems like it is too short. I either need to bend the hose connector at the pump (1-3/4" hose isn't gonna give much!) or at the UCT.... Will post some pics of the mismatch.

One kind soul told me that he stretched this tube about 1-1/4" and it fit better. Sounds like a plan....!

Thermostat Pipe This is a nice looking piece....but stops there. The original pipe bends around the front of the engine at about an 88 degree angle and runs parallel to the valve cover to the pressure tank top fitting.

The new one is bent with more of a 90 degree angle and therefore when mounted up, it is off about 3/4" pointing to the wheel well...and it also angles up about 3/4". Off on two planes....

If I had a tubing bender handy, I'd have both of those issues corrected with one bend... I still may cut it and correct it......as the tube to the lower tank connection is fine and I don't want to start stressing the tank welds or the t-stat area welds by putting pressure on the tubes by bending the hoses to fit.

PLUS, I wanted to put an inline filter in that top rubber union as it is the longest piece of rubber in the works....but I would like to NOT stress the plastic filter by trying to get short pieces of rubber hose to fit.

Call me picky. Yes I am. I got that by being raised by a tool and die machinist who cuts metal down to .000x dimensions....and an electronics training regimen that counts signals in 10 to the -9 decimal places.....

And since I'm on my soap wrapper....if I am buying new parts....I expect them to fit. But this isn't Lincoln Mercury any more....!

I want to drive this car further than the Cars n Coffee events on Saturday/Sunday mornings....and I already spent enuf time on the side of the road with my Goose fixing "inherited issues" that I don't want to induce any new issues with the Pantera by putting parts in "because I paid good money for them!"

I'll put old parts back in where they merit it!

OK, here's my one attachment allotment for this email! Misalignment of top t-stat tubing. I have another shot showing the vertical issue, but not going to post it....be assured it exists!

Don't touch that dial!
Steve

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