3785 Gets a 400 swap, fabbed 180's and fabbed mufflers

With that out of the way let’s get started!

As you should know by now the bell housing pattern on the standard 400 block is the same as a 429-460. I say standard because there were a very small number of 400 blocks cast with the small block bolt pattern.

I looked at my options for the adaptation and found three sources:

1. I contacted Precision Proformance as they had done 460 swaps in Panteras to see if I could buy the required bell housing. I was told that they do not sell any of the parts for this conversion and the car would have to be brought to them for the work.

2. I looked at using an adapter plate made by this company:

http://www.transmissionadapters.com/Ford%20429-460.htm

My concerns with this part were its effect on the input shaft to clutch and pilot bushing distance. I could make a custom pilot bushing and use a thicker billet flywheel as possible solutions. The price at $795.00 was also pretty high for what it is.

3. I found that Quick time had released their 351M, 400,429,460 to ZF bell housing.
http://www.quicktimeinc.com/products.html#ford

This is a SFI approved bell housing and comes in a kit.
This is the route I chose to go I purchased pn. 8012. At $415.00 I could buy it and the intake adapter for less than the plate style conversion. I did run into a problem as the bell housing is drilled to be used in a GT40 application which is 180 degrees rotated from a Pantera. My solution to this problem was having a machine shop re drill the pattern rotated correctly. Here is the bell housing after drilling.

The next adapter required is to bolt a 351C intake on to the 400 with the taller deck. I researched and found out that Weiand at one time made a adapter but as far as I found out it is discontinued.

I decided to go with this company
http://www.pricemotorsport.com/

This will allow me to use one of the 4V manifolds I already have. Here is a pic from their web site.

To start with I re installed my bare 351C block and ZF. I had to do some repair to the ZF mounts and it is covered in the ZF forum here.

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9550045562/m/6730095465

After that I tightened down the factory mounts and built a jig that mounted on the front of the block and located its height as well as centering it. It is made out of a couple of pieces of angle and some square tubing. The front of the block is the same between the 351C and 400 in this regard. Here is the jig mounted on the front of the 351C block.

I bolted the Quick Time bell to the ZF and my mock up 400 block and installed it in the car with the jig bolted to the front of it.
Then I started on the mounts. The design I created made it possible to access the top of the mount for installing the rubber cushions as well as access to the mount nuts.
The lower plate of the mount is ¼ thick steel and the rest of the pieces are 3/16 steel.
The original cast aluminum upper mount was 3/8 thick. When tightened, the rubber cushion was preloaded against a spacer inside the rubber. I machined 1/8 off of the internal spacer to compensate for the thinner steel I am using to maintain the correct preload.
Here are the pieces to the Right side mount cut out before welding.The Left hand mount is the same as this one. I just didn't photograph the pieces to both.

I know its going to be a good design because my supervisor took the time to approve final mock up despite her busy schedule of popping bubble wrap.

Here is the mount fully welded. I spotted it with a Mig while it was bolted in the car then removed it and did the final welding with a Tig.

Here it is bolted on and installed in the car.

Here is the project as it presently sits.
I have a old set of 4V heads sitting on it for header fabrication.

I will start out using a set of New GTS ANSA mufflers and will tie the headers to them.
I have another set of ANSA's that I will modify for better performance in the future.

The short list of things I will soon address include:
Swirl and over flow tank mounting. The brackets had been cut out of my car when I bought it so I had to deal with this anyway.
Throttle cable length in regards to the taller engine.
Engine screen fab and mounting.

I have a hectic schedule so these things will take me a while. The bell housing and engine mounts took about a month to complete.

I hope people find this thread informative and helpful.
If it gets too boring I will have Cowboy from hell post pics of hot girls to keep interest.
If anyone wants more pics of something posted let me know.

Great stuff Brooke. Nice welds. Keep it coming.

I like your supervisor. Why is it that no matter what expensive toys we buy them, the bubble wrap is always the most fun?

You're doing great Brooke. The time & work you took to post your pictures & descriptions is very appreciated.

Your fabb'd motor mounts are BITCHEN.

cowboy from hell

Brooke,

Excellent fab on the mount. Very impressed with your method for matching the 400 block position using the front mount bracket.

Am I correct the other side mount remains stock Cleveland?

Larry

Larry,
The mount on the other side is fabbed also and matches the one shown.

Awesome Brooke, Awsome! So glad to see others doing it. The 400 blocks are a dime a dozen which is nice and it is nice to see others using it. Amazing to me this engine has not been tapped before. It in itself is basically a stroked Cleveland.

Lary one side has the embosement for a Cleveland mount but you would have to drill it and tap it.

Gary

Blazing along at a snails pace I finished the water bottle relocation project.

This is not necessary for the swap. I wanted my bottles moved to give me more room for the headers and clean up the compartment a little.

You do however, need to raise the bottle as the thermostat mounting boss on the 400 is higher and this will make the tube higher than the swirl tank.

I made the bracket out of 1 inch angle steel and a piece of 1/8 thick 3/4 wide flat steel.

I made the round cutouts in the angle steel and then welded the flat steel in half circles to it.The bottles are retained with T clamps.
I will add some rubber or another material for insulation later.

Here are the bottles mounted in the car.
Later I will modify the engine oulet tube to match the angle of the relocated swirl tank.
I removed the existing bracket for the recovery tank and mounted the new bracket there.

The coolant outlet tube still misses the firewall but it is just barely due to the higher location of the thermostat boss.

Next up on the list is finish the shifter install and adjustment, Fab header flanges to match my port plates and build collectors to mate to the exhaust pipes. Then I can start header fab.

Cool!

Welcome to the next installment of my build which is 180 header fabrication!

I originally planned to build undercar headers which I will still do…read on.

There will be a long sequence of posts to present this information. I will do the best I can to present the job as completely as I think necessary to convey the ideas and procedures required.

This job requires a fair amount of skill and specialized tools but the most important thing is patience.

I don’t know when it started, maybe it was Rapids avatar or I was spending too much time on GT40s.com. You will not find a higher percentage of 180's per capita than with the GT40 crowd. Whatever it was I became obsessed with the 180 Header design. I decided I had to have 180’s.
I particularly liked the Symmetry of this design.



Here is a pic of Rapids awesome 180's that I shamelessly stole from his thread



The reason I did not originally consider going the 180 route is that I wanted to keep my A/C in the rear of the car and I wanted to use my trunk. I decided that although I could keep my A/C with 180's to meet all of my needs I would have to build two exhaust systems. I will build 180’s and a undercar set for use of the trunk when I need the car to act like a car such as going to the fun rally or other long distance events.With the 180's I will also have to build a heat shield to protect the paint on the decklid.

The 180 design header is not for everyone. Like anything else there are compromises. You have to decide if you can live with those factors before determining if 180's are for you.

I have been modifying and fabricating headers for years. I started in 1993 when I did a engine swap (460 in a 69 Mustang) and could not get a header to fit the way I needed it to. After that I began to modify headers for a better fit or collector upgrades, this way I did not have to settle for header manufacturer's design limitations. The first time I built a set of headers out of thin air(Zoomies for a Supercharged 460 in door car tube chassis) was when I could not buy something to fit a custom application. After that it was just something I did when a off the shelf header was not available or what I could buy was not available in a size or configuration I needed.
I don’t make a living building headers it’s just a skill I have developed over the years.

Before I start any project a little research is always in order. For those not familiar with what a 180 degree header is here are some sites to help with the basics.

Please take the time to look at these links. They will answer a lot of basic questions concerning 180 header priciples.
Here on the PIBB you can see where they have been discussed here before.This is one of those threads.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/2460086584/p/1

I primarily want to deal with the construction aspect of the build in this thread.

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-218.html

http://www.ssheaders.com/header.htm

http://home.alltel.net/bsprowl/Exhaust/180FEHeaders.htm

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/all-gt40/9358-header-design.html

Here is a cad drawing made by Adam C. on GT40s .com it gives a pretty good visual of the typical layout for a set of 180’s. Adam is an engineer who started fabricating GT40 parts as a hobby.
Adam calls fab “art class for adults.”
I love that quote!
Here is a link to his incredible work.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tech-engines-induction-...-summer-project.html

I did a lot of searching here on the PIBB and could not find a thread on headers that showed the thought process and individual steps that go into the fabrication of headers. I thought I would do that here in this thread. I apologize for the redundancy if this had been covered before.

Let’s get started.
First thing I did was to make a “wish list” in other words: What criteria do I want to incorporate into my design?
My list is as follows.
1. Headers must allow the use of rear mount A/C unit
2. Headers must be two piece with the only slip together joints present at the collector.
3. Must have descent access to header bolts
4. Must have descent access to spark plugs.
5. Must not have a large primary length difference from one cylinder to another.
6. Must match my MPG Port Plates at the flange.
7. Headers must be easy to install.
8. And most important, they must LOOK COOL!

My headers will be a rifling design where the pulses in the collector rotate in a clock wise or counter clockwise motion. I will mention that I was not able to find a single dyno test comparing a rifling design to a non rifling design. The original GT40 designs that I studied are only rifling on one side.
I am incorporating rifling into my design because I agree with the logic.

Here is a illustration from GT40s .com showing a rifling firing order in the collector. Keep in mind it is not the exact position that is important here it is the order. This order also determines which direction the rotation occurs.



My primaries will be oriented in this order 3258 and 1764
Left-------------Right
8—3 ----------6—4 Top
5—2----------7—1 Bottom
This makes both sides a clockwise rifling motion with the 13726548 firing order.

Given the modest projected power level of 375 emission legal horses for my 400,
my headers will be 1 ¾ primaries exiting into 2 ½ inch collectors.
My car will be a street use only car. No ORR racing or Track events. As such my engine will be built with a emphasis on bottom and midrange power. I feel the added primary length of the 180 design will compliment this goal. I will chassis dyno my car upon completion of its restoration to validate or invalidate my decisions and make the necessary changes.

We will start by fabricating the collector.
These will be a standard 4 into 1 style collector. They will have a 5 inch taper. They are not a true Merge collector but will incorporate some of the internal features of that type of collector. As I understand it a true Merge collector has a much steeper angle.

Here is a great thread on true Merge collector fabrication.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/how-engines-transaxles/24820...tors-jim-cowden.html

I use a straight edge on end to mark the center of a tube. The tube dia is 1 7/8. This is the slip diameter for a 1 ¾ tube.



Then I lay my template over it lining up the centerline marks and tracing it. It needs mentioning that the template is not a true cone shape as one might think. It flares out drastically at the bottom.



Here are the 4 pieces cut out. I use a high speed cut off wheel to cut them out of the tube.



This is the alignment tool that I use to keep the pieces square. It is available from
http://www.coneeng.com/tech_assist.html
This makes the ends of the taper line up with the slip rings that will also be welded in this alignment tool.

Here are the pieces tacked together and the ends being shaped for the 2 ½ tube on the end.
I made the jaws out of some ¼ inch steel and welded them to some vise grips.



Here is the 2 ½ end tube tacked in place.



While that is still tacked I start on the slip rings. It is important to sand the ridge from the seam weld flat or it can cause a leak at the slip connection.



Here are the rings installed in the alignment tool and tacked together. They will stay in this tool throughout the rest of the process.The rings are 1 7/8 dia and 1 1/2inches long.

Now I start building the Merge bullet assembly. These are the individual parts.

These are super cheap and are available also from http://www.coneeng.com/tech_assist.html
The website also has a great tutorial on the welding of one of their collectors.

Here are the pieces in the aligning tool.



Here is the part all welded and the edges sanded smooth sitting on top of the collector rings waiting to be tacked.



Here is the bullet welded to the collector rings.



Here it is with the finish sanded smooth.

I check the fit of the taper assy and the collector rings for alignment then finish weld the taper assy.



Here is the taper tacked to the rings ready for final welding.



If you end up with two pieces that look like lunar landing craft you did it correctly.

Here is a view from the end.I used a 220 grit sanding roll and polished the entire inside of the collector.

Header Flange Modification
The header flanges I purchased from Speedway Motors pn# 418-1142. They are 5/16 thick.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/

I will be running MPG port plates in my 4V heads. The purpose of these plates is to raise the port floor to increase velocity. The problem with the port as cast is the drastic drop off after the short side radius.
It didn’t make sense to me to spend money to correct a problem only to re-introduce it again at the header flange with a drastic drop off into the tube.
Here is the difference between the plates and the flanges.



I went to the Hardware store and bought some square key stock. I then cut it to the shape of the lower opening in the flange.



I then fit them individually into the openings. I made them a little lower than the port plates to that I didn’t have to flatten the bottom of the tube to fit the opening and it allowed for a good transition. At the time the Hardware store only had 3/8 square stock so I had to grind them to fit the 5/16 thick flange.



Here they are all welded up. I will be running a 4V sized header gasket. The opening is below the weld so there won’t be any problems with leaks.

Ready to run some tubes yet?

The tubes I purchased from Speedway Motors, it is their 1 ¾ combo mandrel bend pn# 91013872. I purchased 15 pipes.
The only thickness they come in is 16ga. At about $14 ea they are a good deal for the amount of tube you get and that it includes both a U bend and a 90 degree bend.
Most companies want $15 for just a U bend. I also like how these tubes do not come full of grease like some companies tubes do. This saves having to clean all the pieces with solvent.
They are bare steel that is covered in a light oil that wipes off with Brake cleaner. I also prefer bare tubes to aluminized ones. This saves having to sand the coating off of all the ends to get a good weld at the joint.
16ga tubing has a .062 wall where as the more common 18ga has a .049 wall. This makes the 16ga tubing heavier. I am not concerned about the added weight on my car.



As part of my design, I use the most direct route for the cyl’s that are the farthest away from the collectors. As the cyls move closer to the collector I run the pipes in increasing longer routes to offset the diminishing distance. This will help keep the pipes to a more similar length.

I made a simple tool out of a piece of 2X4, a deck screw and 1/16 TIG rod. This enabled me to mark the tubes for cutting at different degree angles referencing from the center of the radius.



It is difficult to run tubes if you don’t know where to run them to. I made this Erector set looking fixture to mount the collectors so I would have a target to run to. Because I am going to exit at a angle to clear the A/C condenser I positioned the collectors close to the engine. This makes the bends tighter around the block. If I were to exit out the rear of the car I would have moved the collectors much closer to the rear of the car to get a more sweeping motion with the primaries



Here are the collectors mounted in the fixture.

*Edit* I wanted to make note at the beginning of this segment that I am not building these tubes to any certain design length.I realize that might sound crazy given the amount of work I am about to do.
I am running them port to collector freehand using the routing I designed and will see where they end up for length. I have not built a set of 180's before or measured a existing set so Im not sure where the dimensions will fall.
I know the currently available undercar headers for a Pantera feature unequal and very short primaries. I am hoping to be able to gain some length with this design.
When my car is done I will chassis dyno it and then have a real number to reference if I need to make a header change. I am not trying to make these equal length because I do not know what length the engine needs. This will be accomplished by the chassis dyno testing.I also do not know how a 180 is affected by a unequal primary. My goal is to keep the discrepancy minimal (less than 8 inches)given the design and the room I am working in. *End of Edit*

I start by mounting a header flange to another 400 I have in the shop. I am not using starter stubs because of the lack of room between the header and the car. I run the number 1 pipe back to the general direction it needs to go. I am using a metal strap to locate the end of the tube so that I don’t run it too low. The Right hand bank cyl’s 1-4 will be the bottom tube set. The LH bank cyl’s 5-8 will be the upper tube set. In order to keep the primary pipes and flanges one piece from side to side I am going to construct them in this overlapping fashion.



I do the same for cyl #2



And #3



I then mount the flange and pipes into the car. I remove the #3 tube to have better access to run the #1 and #2 tubes.
I run the #1 tube first. Where cyl #1 is the furthest away from the collector I run it to the closest collector opening.



I run cyl#2 to the closest opening in the other collector. Since this side of the engine will be the lower bank of tubes I angle the pipe downward as it exits the collector. I need to give myself plenty of room for the pipes that will go on top.

Now is when it gets complicated.
I run the #4 tube from the collector to back alongside the #2 tube. I do not connect it to the flange at this time. The reason for running the #4 tube back to there is so that I know where to locate the upper bend in the #3 tube to go over it.



I make the collector ends to the #6 and #7 tubes so that I can see where the #3 tube has to be routed to clear them. Remember the LH cyl bank will be the upper set of tubes.



I then finish the #3 tube



Lastly for this side I run the #4 tube the rest of the way to the flange.

I start the RH bank the same way as the LH side by running the starter tubes while the flange is mounted to another 400.Here is cylinder #5



And #6



I mount the flange with the starter tubes into the car and finish running #5 to the collector.



I then do the same with cyl #6. This side differs from the other side in that cyl#2 went to the opposite collector at the bottom and #6 runs to the opposite collector at the top. Because of these differences one side is not a copy of the other.



I then run cyl#8 from the collector to the front of the engine. I do this so I know where cyl#7 can come up and cross over. I do not take cyl #8 all the way to the flange at this time.

I take cyl #7 from the collector to where is starts angling down towards the flange. I have to be aware of how close it is to the fuel tank shield and the gas strut mounting tabs.



#7 gets ran to the flange. Then I route #8 to the flange



Now the headers are ready to be removed from the car and the joints solid welded. After that they will get fit to the car again and the tubes hard tacked to the flanges.
I'm not done yet, lots of work still to do and more collector tricks. Stay tuned for more pics and info to come..

I wanted to take this time to give a BIG thank you to George/Cowboy From Hell.
If it weren't for his help with using Photobucket to post these pics this would have been MUCH harder than it was.

This has got to be one of the coolest posts I have seen in a while. Awesome job on everything. I cant wait till I get my shop.

Blaine

Brooke,

I thank you for taking the time to photo and document this project, a truly awesome job on your part, I envy your skills.

One question; Is it important to keep each tube from the flange to the collector of equal length?

Wow ! amazing post. needs to go in a tech manual or something !
I hate to think of the man hours in this !

I think that if you ask what brand of car has the most knowledgable, techsavvy, eager to experiment, no-fear owners, the answer has to be the Pantera. Some of the things I read about here...

Brooke Awesome photos and awesome work. I can't tell you how many things I have picked up from your photos. I really like the collector construction.

I think you should consider writing an article for Car Craft. It would be a great non standard exhaust construction article!

Sorry I have not been writing more. I have been flying my ass off; which is good! We have a couple pilots out and our crews are a little thin. It should ease up late fall.

Gary

By the way I stopped by on a flight to visit my engine builder in Fairmont MN. I was able to show him up front the issues with the bellhousing and where to drill the embosments for the engine mounts should some one else go through him.

Amazing! Great job...

Thanks for the Comments!

I went back in this morning and added some more pics that I had forgot to post last night. I also did some tweaking to the text.Never ends..

I realized that the way I presented this segment made it appear like these "built a car in a week" reality shows where everything just goes together smoothly.
I want to say that at the point of the last pics you are seeing a months worth of construction time.
Some of the pipes I redid 3 and 4 times to get them right.
It is very tough to build in the middle where you have the beginning and end tube established because the transition has to match perfect.

The cluster at the collector where Cyls #3,6and 7 come together took me 4 hours.

Joules: Getting the primary lengths the same is a debate that has raged on for years in the header community. Sides For and Against are very passionate about their views.

*Edit* Joules, As I reread my above answer I realize that I didn't answer your question at all.Here is my view.

As I understand it,the side for equal length believes that equal length primairies are important to achieve the best scavenging characteristics.They believe this to be from the pressure wave timing being the same from cyl to cyl. They also believe that equal length achieves better cylinder to cylinder balance as the individual cylinders don't go in and out of tune at different RPM's. They believe this also has a positive effect on the intake side of the motor.

As I understand it, the side against equal length believes that the discrepancy broadens the torque band which is benificial to a street car. They also believe that two tubes both 34 inches but one having more bends than the other will not time equally anyway. They also believe that no one knows the correct length to build their headers to so everyone builds them equal to the wrong length.

You can decide who you think is wrong or right for your application. *End of Edit*

My thinking was simply to get them to a similar length to reduce the cylinder to cylinder imbalance and to aid scavenging.

From a construction stand point building a equal length header is very very difficult.
I have done it but I didn't do it here.

Gary, I wondered where you had gone.
1905 is feeling neglected....

quote:

Originally posted by Pittcrew:
Thanks for the Comments!

Gary, I wondered where you had gone.
1905 is feeling neglected....

YES IT IS!

Here are the pipes out of the car and mounted to a 400 block and heads on a dolly. I can’t bolt them to a engine on a engine stand because they hit the arms on the stand.

This is the RH side header I am very happy with how this one turned out. I want to point out some design considerations on this side of the engine. The header flange bolts are diagonally staggered with the upper bolt to the front. This makes it easy to lay the pipes back towards the rear of the car and still have good bolt access. Because I moved my water tanks this also gives this side more room to run pipe and is easier to build with spark plug clearance. You can also see that the pipes take a longer route the closer to the rear of the engine they get.



Here is the LH header. I don’t like this at all. The space is so cramped to work in because of the fuel tank shield that you can’t see how it looks very well.



I cut all the pipes off so I could take and tweak that side. It’s better to take some time to fix something that is bugging you now than to have it bother you forever.



Here is Ver2.0 for the LH header. I like this much better. This side the upper header bolts are staggered to the rear of the engine so the pipes exiting the port can’t lay back as far and still have good bolt access. With the fuel tank shield you always have to be aware of how wide the header is during construction. You need to leave room to slide the header out away from the cylinder head for removal from the car.



The other problem the fuel tank shield makes is that the plug access is worse because you can’t run the #5 cyl pipe as wide as you can run the #1 pipe on the other side. The #8 plug will have to be reached from the bottom.Remember I am building these on a 400 which has a taller deck, a 351 will have more room here. Note that I have full access to all my valve cover bolts.

Here are some overall shots of the Headers.

My initial count was 48 joints that I need to weld. I better get them apart and start welding!

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:
This has got to be one of the coolest posts I have seen in a while. Awesome job on everything. I cant wait till I get my shop.

Blaine

Thanks Blaine!
I keep looking for your "How I built the most bitchen Twin Turbo GR4 Pantera ever" thread.

LOL, Maybe when Im done. Wait... that could be decades. Seriously though excellent work. You fabrication skills are awe inspiring.

Blaine

Here are some pics that will hopefully show how I designed the overlap to keep the RH and LH banks one piece.

Here is the LH header removed.


Here is a shot looking down the collectors. You can see how Cyl's 2 and 3 had to curve down so that 6 and 7 could go over them to the other collector



Pile of spaghetti. I hope I numbered them..

Fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to document your project. Are they all removed as a single unit? Is there a concern for thermal expansion? Quite the undertaking, far, far beyond my abilities. How many times did the block go in and out?

quote:

Originally posted by Husker:
Fascinating. Thanks for taking the time to document your project. Are they all removed as a single unit? Is there a concern for thermal expansion? Quite the undertaking, far, far beyond my abilities. How many times did the block go in and out?

Husker,
each bank is a single unit like a conventional under car header where the 4 pipes are welded to a flange. They come together and the collectors slip on.

I had them tack welded to the flange so I could remove the individual pipes to solid weld the joints. After I finish that then I will hard weld them to the flanges.

I am not concerned about expansion, the system has plenty of room to move.

The engine never came out of the car. The whole thing was built inside the car. The pipes never came out of the car either until the whole thing was tack welded then they were removed.
I saw it outside for the first time when I bolted it to this engine on the dolly.

The mock up engine is still in the car. The engine on the dolly is another 400 block and heads that I have laying around.

We all have individual talents to contribute on this forum. Thats what makes it so awesome. I love reading other peoples build threads and the ideas they come up with. Currently digging MacMans hood vent thread. Very cool.

Quite a Brain Trust here on the PIBB.

I tacked the joints on 4 sides so that nothing would move while removing them from the car. I weld up to the tack then grind and sand the tack off and finish weld the joint.





Fast Fact: 48 joints at 6 inches circumference per joint that is 24 feet of welding just in joints!

I use a vise grip quick clamp to hold the odd shaped pipes in position to weld the joints. I have found this to be better that trying to clamp them to fixtures or in a vise. I ground the welding cable to the metal table and the pipe rests on the table.



The pipes are all welded the lengths came out as follows:
1=39 2=39 3=44 4=44 ½
5=38 6=44 7=42 8=41
This is Interesting as I thought that the #1 and #5 pipes were going to be the longest.

I install the pipes in the car to hard tack them to the flanges. I want to point out that all of the fab has taken place with the gaskets and port plates installed as per the instructions. This is done so that everything is spaced properly for welding.

While the pipes are still tacked in the car I start on the header collector tabs. I use a barrel bolt lock from the hardware store and cut it into the individual tabs. The metal is already formed I just need to bend the ends to fit the curve of the tube.



Here are the pieces all made.
The loop end fits a 5/16 bolt perfect. I will be using 5/16x2 stainless button head bolts with metal lock nuts.
I don’t think the nylon lock nuts will hold up to the heat.



I set them on the pipes using the bar from the kit to align them for tacking.



Here are the tabs tacked in place.

I remove the pipes and mount them in a fixture I made to start work on the tube to flange joint. I start by tacking the tube on a couple of sides.



I made a mandrel that fits the shape of the flange to use to form the ends of the tube to match. I made the mandrel out of some ¼ thick plate that I cut and welded together and shaped

I got this idea from Clayton on the GT40s.com site. Thanks Clayton!
Here is a link to his great 180 build.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tech-engines-induction-...tion.html#post236149





I heat the tube and then hit the mandrel with a hammer and that forms most of the shape.



I finish shaping it with a small trim hammer.



Here is a port welded.



I sand the port flat and mount the headers on another engine I have on my work table to weld the outside of the flanges.

Here are some views of the headers that cant be seen while mounted inside the car.
Here is looking at the rear of the pipes showing the overlap.



Here is a top view.



Here is a view from the bottom. Notice how the LH side is closer to the block to clear the fuel tank shield. This was not planned its just how it turned out from fitting the pipes inside the car. You do not notice this from the top.



Here is a view from the bottom of the collectors showing more of the routing.



I start welding the flanges by turning the engine upside-down and welding the bottom.





Then I turn it over and weld the topsides.



I also finish welding the header collector tabs.



I take the headers off of the engine and mount them to the work table and finish off the ports with sanding rolls.
I take the same care that you would take on cylinder heads

Now it is time to finish the collector. Something that I find to be annoying is collector leaks at the flange. I have been able to eliminate them by the following method.
The flanges are 5/16 thick 2 ½ dia and were purchased from Cone engineering.
www.coneeng.com
The thick flanges will not warp or bend. It is important to use thick flanges
Because of the angle my exhaust pipes will be exiting I rotated my flanges slightly.
I mark the flanges at straight up and also find center and mark the collectors.



I will be using fel-pro steel core collector gaskets. I had to file the holes slightly to match the bolt circle of the flanges.



I use 3/16 key stock as a spacer and clamp the flange to the table. I then insert the collector lining up the centerline marks and tack them.



Using the same procedure as the tubes, I weld up to the tack then grind it off and weld the flange solid.





Here is the amount of tube that sticks out from the flange. The gasket is 1/16 thick so there will be 1/8 of tube inside the flange for the muffler pipes. This keeps the exhaust gas pressure from having direct contact with the gasket and significantly extends the life of the gasket.



I also don’t like to hold exhaust pipes to insert bolts so I use a method that makes exhaust hook up very fast and easy.

I weld nuts to the flange and insert a set screw. I use a socket set screw instead of a stud because it has a hex drive on one end and is slightly pointed on the other. The set screw is removable so if the threads get damaged then I insert a new one. I will use nuts and lock washers on this connection.

Wow !!
awesome as ever !!

Here are some pics of the welded and finished pipes back in the car.

Here is a shot looking in through the A/C hole in the back of the body.



More shots from above.













Here is the part where I discuss what I would have done differently if I did it all over again.

I was talking to a friend of mine and he mentioned that Headers by Ed has flanges for the 4V heads and MPG port plates.
Purchasing those would have saved some time.

I might consider buying a pre built merge collector from SPD or Cone. That would also have saved some time.

However,both of these options would add to the cost of the headers.

This project took me a little over two months to complete and cost approx $400 in materials.

I hope people have found the 180 header fabrication portion of my thread informative and helpful.

I get a ton of ideas and inspiration from a lot of places and this is my way of giving back.

I will be building a set of undercar 4-1’s also but I am going to take a break for a while to focus on some other things.
That portion will not be as detailed as this segment was but I hope it will convey some good ideas also.

Wow.

(That's all I'm capable of uttering at the moment.)

Michael

Brooke,

A photo is worth 1000 words and what you have done here is absolutely awesome! Good job. The photo documentation is not only outstanding but I think this sort of thing helps others see how to do things. I will be excited to see your car run.

Gary

I wanted to give big thumbs up to our Pantera racing friends across the pond.
This was one of the many inspirations for my 180 project.

The Dutch Pantera racing team of Team Witch Craft was first featured in the PI Spring 2004 number 118 issue.
They continue to race GR4 looking Panteras across Europe keeping awareness alive.

Their website is:

http://www.twc.dk/galleri.asp

If you click on the "English" button it only translates the opening page.

The 180 fabrication portion of their web page is in "Opbygning of Pantera Henrik".Then click on "Pantera Udstoedning" and that is their 180 build. Facinating use of flexible tubes and foam for modeling the headers.

I can't speak a word of their language and I don't know if they speak English but if anyone from Denmark knows them shake their hand for me.

Here are some pics of their work completed.
To me, this is the ultimate evolution of the Pantera.

I don't know how the &#*$ I missed this thread!!! Wow, great work Brooke!! I really enjoyed reading and looking (ok droooling) at the pictures. It must be a thrill for you.

Thanks for sharing,

-William

Updates?

Unfortunately I don't have any updates Gary, Sorry.

I have been sidetracked with the holidays and rebuilding a nephews dirtbike engine.

I hope to be back working on the car soon.

Currently ,I am enjoying watching you work on your car though.

that is amazing. WOW!

What would be the advantages to using the 180s vs. the undercar or longtube type design?

On a side note, after all this work is 375 HP going to be enough?

quote:

Originally posted by tajon:
that is amazing. WOW!

What would be the advantages to using the 180s vs. the undercar or longtube type design?


On a side note, after all this work is 375 HP going to be enough?

Tajon that is a very good question.

The advantages and disadvantages of the 180 design was discussed here. I think you will find it interesting.

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/7540041375

I am going to start pretty tame on the engine and work up from there. Initially I think it will be fine to get the rest of the car sorted and get the thing on the road. This will also give me a good chassis dyno baseline to decide if I need to make a header change and or what engine changes I might need to make.

So I guess the answer is, initally yes it will be enough but later on probably not.

Brooke, thanks for the link. It was a great read with lots of youtube in between. The 180s sound sweet. Are you going to video your dyno testing with the different headers?

I'm wondering how much louder are the 180s?

quote:

Originally posted by tajon:
Brooke, thanks for the link. It was a great read with lots of youtube in between. The 180s sound sweet. Are you going to video your dyno testing with the different headers?

I'm wondering how much louder are the 180s?

I hadn't thought of shooting video but that might be a idea...

I have no idea how much louder or not the 180's will be.
Most people I have talked to just mention that the 180's are a completely different type of sound.

i'm still waiting for some video.

Me Too!
Seriously though, it will be a year or so until my car spins the dyno rollers.
Lots of work yet to do.

The pipe did come in the other day for the 4-1's
so I can start fabbing those as time permits.
Then its on to further adapting /fitting the 400.

It looks like my other winter projects are going to turn into early spring. Then I should be able to get back to work on the Pantera.

quote:

Originally posted by Pittcrew:

It looks like my other winter projects are going to turn into early spring. Then I should be able to get back to work on the Pantera.

Amazing how fast the clock tends to spin some times!

It’s been a long time since I added to my thread, thing always seem to get in the way
of working on the P car. I have been working on this current project since February.

I want to thank Gary Walker and Johnny Woods for their advice and support so far during this segment of the build.
I haven't ever built anything like this before and it was nice to have their input.

While working on non P car related projects this winter I had been thinking a lot about the exhaust system to hook to the 180's.
The obvious choice was to hook up some short glass packs and exit out in the side of the engine compartment then out the factory opening in the back of the body. This is what most people have done in my situation where they want to keep the A/C

I just wasn't “feelin” it.

I did a search on the PIBB for "exhaust" and had over 150 hits! Pantera people care about exhaust for sure.

I love the look of the ANSA's out the back of the car. IMO They work with the styling of the car so well they almost qualify as a styling que.

I decided to route the exhaust differently than was usually done with 180’s. I decided to hook them to some used L model ANSA's that I bought to modify. I have a brand new set of Ansa GTS mufflers but having paid Hall over $800 for them I'm not about to cut them up.

After all the talk of how badly the ANSA's rob power I decided to mod the inside of my used ANSA’s

Then I would take and hook them to my 180's in a way that I can also use them with the 4-1's.

After making the decision to go with the ANSA's I felt better.

Now I was “feelin” it.

I also realized a mistake I made with the collectors on the 180's.
Having the collectors attach the way I did with the bolts won't allow them to hook up the same every time. This will make the exhaust system angles subject to changing and requiring a lot of tweaking to get them in the right place again. As any movement in the collector will affect how the exit pipe and muffler sits.

I decided to cut off the existing collector mounts and go to the commonly used collector tabs to be able to mount the collector with better orientation repeatability.

I could have welded stops on the tubes to locate for the bolts but I liked this idea better.

Then my imagination started working(uh oh..) and I thought if I am changing the inlet pipe, gutting and changing the internal ducting and changing the rusted resonator tips the only thing I am using is the can body.

Hmmm with some simple forms I could make my own can bodies I have a bead roller so I can put ribs in them for strength build internal ducting weld on some tips………(insert snowball getting larger and larger here)

I realize this would add a bunch of work to the project. Maybe it would be better just to use the existing cans to keep it simple.

Since when has any part of my project been kept simple?.......

I believe there are two problems with the typical ANSA system, the Inlet tube diameter and internal baffle architecture and sizing.

I have both a New GTS set and the used US based L model set for comparison.

The U.S based L model system is a joke. It has a 1 3/4 tailpipe entering the can and exiting through two 1 1/2 I.D. resonators.
Probably not a very good flowing system.

The GTS system is a little better. The inlet pipe is actually a odd size and measures 2 3/8 O.D. The resonators are a slightly different design than the L system and have a ID of 1 9/16.

Johnny Woods did some work on a GTS ANSA system.
Here is that thread.Great work here.

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...0045562/m/4600039074

I had been PMing Johnny questions about the internal baffling dimensions.

It was interesting, he told me that at the inlet entrance the 2 3/8 tube is actually necked down to 2 inches through the inlet perforated tube.

In his opinion the exhaust exiting through the necked down perforated tube into the small perforated inlet tube of the resonators was the largest restriction. He felt that the area of the two resonators was sufficient to the inlet size but the perforated tubing was by size and routing the restriction in that design

I did some area comparisons out of curiosity.

On the US made ANSA the areas are:
Inlet of 1 3/4 has a square inch area of 2.142
The two 1 1/2 resonators have a combined area of 3.086.
The statement can be made that the mufflers capacity to exit exhaust is greater than the tailpipe can introduce based on in/out areas alone.

GTS Muffler
Inlet of 2 3/8 has a area of 4.070
Necked down to two inches the area is 2.840
The combined resonator outlet has a area of 3.354
The same statement can be made again that the exiting area is greater than the inlet area.

What I am thinking of building is this configuration.
Inlet 2.5 inches area 4.529
Internal V shaped baffling out of two 2 inch od perforated tubes area 5.68
exiting into 2 ¼ inlet 3 inch outlet tips
I feel that the ability of this design to exit is greater than the inlet area

I believe using ANSA resonator tips might be a restriction.

*All areas were calculated as .049 wall tubing.

Normally I would sit down and list the criteria I wanted the mufflers to meet. Since I have no idea what I am doing I didn't know what to list!
I figured I would make it up as I go.

To get started I wanted the mufflers I was making to be a similar style to the ANSA’s
I made a generic muffler shape and traced it on to a 2X4.



I did this to six of them then cut out the shape on my band saw. I then glued and screwed them together. Because my bandsaw skills aren’t the best I used some body filler to make the shape uniform on the sides and marked a center line.





I cut out four pieces of 18ga cold rolled sheetmetal measuring 12X8 for the top and bottom of the muffler can.
I marked out where I wanted to put the beads for added strength and rolled them with my bead roller. I used a 3/8 roll set and at the tension I was using the beads are ½ inch wide.





I marked the center of the sheet and used a piece of angle iron to clamp the part to the forming block and work table.



I used a plastic hammer and bent down the side until it matched the shape of the form.



Because the metal has spring in it I inserted a steel ruler under it to over bend it so when it sprung back it would be the right shape. I did this to both sides until the shape matched the form.



Then the part was put in my brake and the edge bent up.





Here is a finished part next to a blank sheet that will be the top to the other muffler.

Awesome!!!
I am not sure if I helped you but I have always been inspired by you welding and fabrication!

After making the other top I put the two together to check aligment and overall shape. I was very happy with the result.



The reason those parts were the tops is because I wanted to incorporate a different design feature into the bottoms.
I started by reversing the Isis logo and cutting out a stencil and marking it with a sharpie on what would be the inside of the can.



I rolled the long side beads into the part then installed a 1/8 inch roll set and rolled the Isis emblem. I traced the emblem reversed so I could track it with the small round part of the roll set making it easier to follow the shape. At the tension I was using the bead is ¼ inch wide.

I realize only road kill or very small animals will ever see it on the bottom of the muffler but it was a touch I wanted to add.

I started building the form for the end caps out of a 1X6 piece of Maple. I cut two pieces and glued them together in the press using Gorilla brand hard wood glue.



I cut out the shape and used a ½ radius bit in the router to make rounded edges. This gives it the same curve as a 1inch diameter circle.





I made a 1/4 inch thick steel plate to act as a retainer for the ends while forming them.



Next was to try a experiment to see if I could flare the holes for the opening and exits in the ends. I bead rolled some circles in a piece of scrap and hole sawed one of them and it fit the tube perfectly and had the effect I wanted.



I cut out the four pieces that were to be the ends and bead rolled the appropriate circles in them.



I cut the reliefs into them and tapped them over with a small hammer. Then I bolted the form plate to the backside.







The top and bottom halves were clamped together and the end tapped in backwards from the top for welding up the relief cuts. This insured it would have a nice fit after welding.



Here are the ends after welding and grinding.



I built a fixture to hold the ends square and then screwed on the tops and bottoms.

I took them back apart and hole sawed the ends I used a 2 ½ hole saw for the inlet side and a 2 3/8 for the outlet side.



The tips I used are Hooker they are 2 ¼ inlet and 3 inch outlet.





These are the same tips midenginemike used in his muffler thread here.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...562/m/4850059725/p/1

The tips are slash cut but the angle is very shallow so I measured the original Ansa tip slash cut to see what the difference was.
I liked the steeper angle of the Ansa’s better so I decided to match it.





I marked the tips for the new angle and cut out the metal with a cut off wheel. I put them on a belt sander to clean up the edges. Here is a before and after comparison.





Here are all the parts lined up ready to begin building the fixture to weld the tips to the ends.

The GTS Ansa mufflers have the tips exiting at an angle. I like the look of this so I decided to match the angle with my tips.



I screwed the bottom on to the ends and mounted them into the same fixture I used to square them and welded the jig to locate the tips.





The reason I used a 2 3/8 hole saw on the tip ends of the can is because of the angle the tips.It could not be angled up with a smaller hole. I taped the tips to prevent weld spatter from getting on the chrome and welded them to the ends.

Next was to build the internal piping. I bought a 4ft long piece of stainless 2 inch dia perforated tube. It is a magnetic alloy so it can be welded conventionally using ER70S2 rod or wire.

I purchased it from here:
http://lachoppers.com/perf.php

I constructed a V similar to what Johnny Woods did in his thread.





In order to get a good fit from the perforated tubing to the 2 ½ inch inlet pipe and get a good surface to weld to the end cap I welded a ½ wide piece of tubing to the end. This piece was a 3 inch piece that I cut down to fit snugly to the outside of 2 ½ tube.



For the tip ends I made a simple offset reducer cone to go from the 2 ¼ tip to the 2 inch perf tube. The offset was for the angle the tube enters the tip.





Here is a view from the end of the tip showing the fit at the entrance



Here are the pieces all done and ready to be welded in. After welding into the muffler can I will wrap them in fiberglass muffler packing.

Before welding the baffling I assembled the cans. I want to fit them to the car and build the hanger brackets, route the exhaust pipe to them and build the inlet tubes.
Here they are as they sit now compared to my new Ansa GTS system.

I will post more as progress continues.

Brooke,
I have to tell you something, wait a minute while I wipe the drool off! Awesome! Seeing all of this makes me feel so useless. I truely admire your talent! Great job and thanks for sharing with us!

quote:

Originally posted by Rapid:
Brooke,
I have to tell you something, wait a minute while I wipe the drool off! Awesome! Seeing all of this makes me feel so useless. I truely admire your talent! Great job and thanks for sharing with us!

Rapid, you are hardly useless, your car has been an inspiration to me and I am sure others in many many ways.
Thank you for your kind comments.

quote:

Originally posted by comp2:
Awesome!!!
I am not sure if I helped you but I have always been inspired by you welding and fabrication!

Gary you have been a big help.
Its nice to bounce ideas off of someone who is like minded.
I was definately in the dark on this one having never built a muffler in my life.
It was nice to get yours and Johnny's input.

Damn, I will EASILY pay up 50 bucks to get a pair of those Isis silencers!!

Once again you leave me incredibly impressed with your skill and motivation. I always look forward to new posts in this thread.

Blaine

Brooke, Amazing work. Stupid question, but here goes anyway. What motivated the 'Y' design with perf pipe rather than 1 in sound box 2 out design? or 1 large perf pipe in 2 perf pipes out?

Denis

Denis,
thanks for the question, I will try to answer the best I can.

The idea behind the V shaped perf tube is simplicity.
The exhaust has a free flowing route to exit at the tips. The holes are for sound baffling only and not to flow gas. The perf tube will be wrapped tightly in fiberglass packing and it will act like a conventional glass pack muffler.

With a 1 in sound box 2 out design their really isn't any thing to direct exhaust to the exits unless some internal flow directors are installed.

With a large perf pipe in and two perf pipe out system, if its like the factory ANSA system the gas has to flow through the small perf holes to go from one side to the other and it is not as free flowing.
I think that configuration can be made to work with some modification if the holes were larger and less restrictive.

I am not an engineer so I cant give you the math on all of it but I hope that answers your question.

I was more curious as to any specific differences. I understand the flow ideas and the fact of using the fiberglass to pack (which will burn especially in this configuration). Again in the thoretical sense the flow apears to be more in a strait line. You have answered my question as the ANSA mufflers had parallel flow pipes (and the involved calculations of actual flow in cfm thru the perforations) I was then wondering if your design would have an influence on the sound (dB)

Denis

I'm not sure what the sound will be like.
Because of its straight through design I am sure it will have a roar to it.
I am also going to build resonator inserts for the tips that can be removable.
These will change the sound also.

When I get the engine done, I will hook up everything on the test stand and run it.
It will be interesting to see what it sounds like.

Brooke those are AWESOME!!! I have been kicking around building mufflers and 180 headers for 1717, and those pics have answered so many questions I have been going over. The perforated tube...where did you get it? I have a muffler design that I want to try and I actually need a sheet form of that for what I want to try.
Jeff

Jeff, Im sorry, I thought I posted where I got the tube.
I bought it from here.

http://lachoppers.com/perf.php

I will go back and add this link to my text.

I had purchased a perforated stainless sheet from the metal recyclers in case I was going to have to "roll my own" I ended up using the sheet for something else.

I think Mcmaster carr has stainless perf sheets.

Good luck on your project!

Thanks for posting this Brooke! This really raises the bar and benefits everyone! Well done!

One of the most interesting threads I have read in a long time. I love both the 180's along with the discussion on the fabbing up of the mufflers -- KEEP IT COMING.....

We all need something to look forward to, and this is one thread that I am really looking forward to.

Fantastic work Brooke! The best I have seen.

Johnny

Awesome Brooke! I am thoroughly impressed by your fabrication skills. This is the best thread on the board! Thanks for all the detailed descriptions and photos. And keep those updates coming!

Thanks everyone for your comments!

I apologize for being so slow to get things done. Thanks for hanging in there guys!

On the muffler project I am making it up as I go and it requires a fair amount of fixtures and forms which take extra time to build.

It took me over a half a day to build the part on the fixture to locate the tips and it only took 10 mins to weld all four of them!

PanteraTurbo said it took him years to build his car and look how cool it is.
There is hope for me yet!

I'm absolutely speechless...

Great work Brooke!

Billy
3383

You know, I worked for a rapid prototyping bureau for 8 years where we had a full machine shop among other things, and I'm amazed to read projects like these where people are fabricating a lot of stuff at home in their garages and shops without the budget of a business. It reminds me to appreciate the resourcefullness of many of the members here. Keep up the great work, and by all means keep posting photos. I love reading about projects like this.

Great stuff Brooke. I love this thread!

It's been a while since I posted a update to this project so I thought I would.

Not much happening on the P car right now.
Very busy with work and general distractions.

I am going to be moving my business soon so that has consumed a lot of time.

On the bright side, I did have a nice visit from Comp2 when he was flying in the area.
Good to meet people from the PIBB.
Thanks for stopping by Gary!

I did get the 2.5 inch pipes ran from the collectors through the frame so I can start the transition into the mufflers.

That is as much as I have done right now. Don't know when I will get back to it but I will post it when I do.

Thanks everyone for your comments and patience.

Thank You Brook! Great hospitality! Your shop, projects and level of detail was astounding!

Gary

quote:

I did get the 2.5 inch pipes ran from the collectors through the frame so I can start the transition into the mufflers.

I am really curious how those pipes, now headed straight down, are going to transition to rear-exiting mufflers.

I feel pretty sure, having followed your posts and seen your skills, it will turn out just fine.

But at this point, I don't have a clue how you are going to do it.

Larry

Hi Brooke,
I love your thread: awesome workmanship!
It is my understanding that in order to optimize the higher rpm audible exhaust "wail" of the 180s, you need to keep the two tailpipe exits close together.
I can remember a 180 exhaust Pantera at a Riverside raceway track day event in the early 1980s which had its exhaust tips well separated(kinda how your tailpipes are presently exiting your chassis in the photo). The car had a sharp, distictive "even" exhaust note, but not the hi rpm smooth wail I personally like.(I also own a SPF GT40 and I do personally love the exhaust wail at higher rpms).
I know that your Pantera's exhaust sound is a personal taste thing, and that you may prefer the staccato sound I remember from the Pantera at Riverside. And your mufflers will obviously dictate where your tailpipes eventually exit. The above is just something I'd noticed and thought I'd point out to you.
Again, I'm jealous of your fabrication skills, and look forward to more posts from you.
Jack

All i have to say is:

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!

Thats one hell of a detailed car.

Hi Guys,
Sorry it has been so long and I haven't finished this thread.

What happend was that I took advantage of a bad market and moved my shop to another location that was 2000 sqft larger for $1000 less a month.I was closed for about a month and a half and it took a ton of time to get everything set up and operational.
Once I was up and going I needed to bring in money fast so I parked my personal projects and focused only on work. Anyone who has seen them can attest to their dusty nature.

I have since caught up with where I needed to be but was given the opportunity to take on more work, which in this economy I took.
This hopefully will put me in a position in the future to invest the much needed time and money that the P car needs. The downside is I still have no time to spend on the P car.

I am still lurking around here from time to time and keep in contact with Comp2 and others on their projects.

I honestly dont have any idea when I will be back to focusing on the car but I will let everyone know when I get going again.
I know a lot of people wanted to know how the exhaust sounded and performed. I also am very anxious to find out.

Gone but not for good

Brooke, have just found and read your thread. am hoping that now we are in 2012 you have been able to find the time to get back to those thing s that most important in life. (our toys) and have a chance to complete this project, would love to see the end result of your amazing work.
I know how the the days, months and years can slip by. my own project on 4355 got delayed by a good five years when i purchased a new business. But i bit the bullet and got into it again last year, and hope to be up and running again this year.
take care and all the best for this new year.
regards Chris new zealand

I'll let Brooke know you were looking. His car sits under a plastic tarp at the moment. It looks pretty much the same as of last week.