Goose Refurb and Repaint

Mark;

It is a great question, and one that is really hard to answer, since everyone has a opinon on the topic.

If you were going to show the goose at AACA, they would say you have to match the orginal design. As for any other car show, I am guessing they will not be able to tell you that it was not orginal unless the design looks too modern. With the price of gooses going into the upper limit, I am guessing originality will count for something. But as I learned years ago, deTomaso was never about originality.
A couple of years ago, I was talking to my aunt about the idea of an Orginal Pantera. She said that when they had a "reunion" a couple of years after the Pantera was launched, people asked to be judged. Bertocci(not sure of the spelling) was asked to do the judging. He took points off for everything that he believed was not original. She said that in the end, he said only a Pantera that was pushed into the event would have been original. The net net is, do what you want, but if you want to drive it, I would have the best radiator you can find, as nothing is worse than an over heating car.
Attached is a pic of the rear drivers side lower frame. Inside the red rectangular container, you can see that at some point in its life, the car's frame has been indented/compressed when the skid plate was bolted on too tightly.

If this is no big deal (ie, not being a structural engineer, I have no idea if this is actually a frame integrity issue), I won't worry about it. I will just clean up frame and POR-15 it to prevent rust.

However, if need be, I can craft 4 appropriately sized pieces steel and weld them around all four sides of the damaged area.

Thoughts?

Thanx
Mark

NOTE: this pic shows pretty well how the frame was modified at some point to accommodate the Boss 302 motor.

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For a nice tidy look, drill out the skidplate holes, heat & lift up the crushed frame section(s) and weld in a tube spacer to reinforce the bolt. Running a skidplate is an excellent upgrade to a Goose especially one running low-profile radial rear tires.

If I still had one, I'd use a 7" (or 5-3/4") double-disc race clutch, a matching small OD flywheel, a reversed starter and trim the bottom of the bellhousing off. One could gain about 3" of badly needed extra ground clearance for maybe $3000.
Got 'recored' radiator back today. Went with 20% increase - staggered tubes and louvered pins while maintaining original look.

Interestingly, they said they had to scrap the first core they made because as they installed it, they realized that this radiator had directly flow through separate baffles on the top and bottom. Said Ferrari had also tried this (probably same radiator company!) in the 60's.

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Mark,
So what did you end up with in terms of fluid flow? Are these tanks open end to end now vs having baffles to redirect (twice thru???) ??

What are "directly flow thru separate baffles"?

Was it like the failed Pantera "double flow" radiators that are so scorned today?

Very nice job!!!

Steve
(Has no original radiator to play with.. Frowner )
As best I can tell, the owner indicated that the hot coolant comes into a baffle in the top tank, flows down thru a set of tubes (in this case staggered vs the original inline), then back up thru the next set of tubes into the next baffle and then back down, etc. until it exits 'icy cold' (ha).

I didn't see the inside of the tank so I can't confirm the configuration, and am not familiar with Pantera radiator.

Hopefully the staggered tubes and louvered pins will make this goose run a little cooler.

Mark
About this time you might check the whole chassis closely. The last 'Goose I saw in restoration had a cracked frame tube in the left front side near the firewall.... found AFTER a gorgeous paint job and front trunk reupholstery. Made a simple weld repair extremely difficult. Same car also had the e-brake pulley behind the front bumper broken loose and previously repaired by village blacksmiths.... Another difficult fix due to the upholstery & paint.
A better result can be achieved through Vapour blasting. A bit like a sandblast cabinet with a wiper on the inside. Blasts with water and small round glass type beads. The finish is like new and does not leave finger prints on alloy when touched. Mike
I had my bell housing cleaned by the local transmission shop they put it in rotating steam & solvent cabinet for couple hours. I took it home , re-cleaned with brake cleaner and a little paint stripper VHT caliper clear aerosol paint.
Well, Goose has been at paint shop a long time. Told them up front I wasn't in a hurry and they took me at my word! Expect to get it back beginning of the new year.

Motor top end rebuilt and have decided to build headers to accommodate Boss motor and rear chassis frame. Shortees and normal long pre-fab headers, whether right side up or upside down, just won't fit.

Mufflers are original and tips need to be re-welded to drivers side muffler. Got me thinking, has anyone installed more modern muffler and retained original look? If so, what mufflers have been used? Boss motor will have IDA webers and 1 3/4 OD headers so would like mufflers to not inhibit carb/motor/header combination.

Thanx
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Mershon:
I'd love to see some restoration pics of any kind. I've got a goose also. Not sure I'm ready to go down that path,love to see any pics at all of it apart. Dan Mershon 937 605 1505. dan@mershons.com. Thanks

Dan , I send you a PM whit pictures.
Simon
Well, it's been another year at the paint shop but things appear to be moving forward. So, expect to get the car back in a few months.

I need to address a couple of issues when I get it back (should have done before repaint). Any help or documentation would be greatly appreciated:

- At some point, someone tightened skid plate bolts on lower frame to tight and caused them to 'in dent' top of frame (see box in attached pic). Is this something that must be addressed? And, if so, how best to do it? I have welding capability.

- Steering is very loose/a lot of play, front wheels each appear toed out, and all the rubber steering rack and other boots are torn and need replacement. (have read various posts on this topic to include Johnny Woods detailed post)

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As far as I know, skid plates were aftermarket -or at least a factory afterthought, so the hollow tube frame is unsupported where it bolts on. Thus, the tube collapses probably before a reasonable bolt torque is reached. I'd also suspect it would dent in the bottom if the skid plate hit something solid! Adding a small OD pipe inside the frame tube and edge-welding it to the top & bottom of the tube should fix this.

IMHO, a skid plate is worth adding to any Mangusta that's driven on city streets. I have an empty Mangusta diff case in my shop that was the victim of snagging a high-mounted manhole cover in a suburban U.S. street. A 'Goose snagged it at speed and ripped the bottom of the bellhousing and ZF diff-case completely out of the car! LOTS of expensive TIG-welding pieced it together like a metal jigsaw puzzle. The outside looks stock; the inside- wow!
My car never had a skid plate, the oil pan shouldn't protrude too far below the frame. I was looking at an award winning car a few weeks ago and they had instaled a reproduction oil pan. It was way deeper than the lowest point of the bell housing. I crafted myself a new oil pan to avoid any problems eventhough I don't have road clearance issues. I took an early Mustang oil pan and remade it to be full length only a little shallower. It is now 7 3/8 in deep and holds 8 quarts.( yes I have baffles to prevent sloshing and a rear pickup too) In effect I have removed the opening between the deep part of the oil pan and the bell housing lower portion. Should I hit anything it would hit the oil pan first then slide off the back as the oil pan is now just slightly lower than the bell housing. The pan is 18ga steel so it is strong, painted Ford blue so it looks factory, holds more oil so the motor runs a little cooler.
As was explained to me back in 96 or 97, by an original owner of a 7K mile Orange car 8MA716, which later sold on to Europe I believe, he had to "wait" to get his car, until the dealership, some European Auto sale co, IIRC outside of Boston where he was attending college, to install a skid plate before he could get the car! He traded in a Ferrari 275 I believe...some college car!!!

I was so in awe of the car....that I FAILED to bend down and look at the stupid skid plate...!!!! Left 2 or 3 rolls of unused film in the rental car also... duh! Boy, what I would have taken pictures of today if I knew what I know...... IT was and probably still is a VERY nice car, but is suffered from one thing.....lack of use! All of the interior had sort of a fuzz growing on it....where if fingers had been involved...probably wouldn't have been there! It was kept in a climate controlled garage with CAV002 GT40, two 67 Vettes (his and hers of course!) and a Jag XKE that was in progress.

My car seemed to have a few extra holes in the cross member.....that looked sort of caved in also!

What people fail to realize is that these motors were regular old 68 Mustang 302's....and those oil pans were fairly restricted to their use in 68 and 69 from what I know. Many of the 302 oil pans sold as proper....are only the substitute part when you order one from the dealership...or from the aftermarket....(which year pan did they copy????)

The 68 pan from what I recall of crashed and dented lower engine photos, shows a drop in the center front of the sump where the drain plug went. Most later ones have a side dump....and may vary in depth again, because of revisions made and then shown as "backwards compatible" to 1964 or so....!

The stock pans were about even with the bottom of the bellhousing when installed in a Mustang. Check out the next 68 or 69 when you see it at a car show....or around....

I don't like the idea of anything "oil retaining" hanging below the frame rails, especially at the front of the engine..a tapered pan with rear pickup would be good...once your wheels start over a bump, the car rises clearing speed bumps and driveways! Different story for big rocks! ....have heard tales of owners backing out of their driveways and loosening the drain plug...! Bad bad thing!

IF you have a mangled one...they can have the dents worked out with body tools..the pan is pretty danged thick material! Weld up cracks...file it all down. I even saw inserts in the Fastenal or MSC catalog for the threaded portion that the drain plug screws into....the inserts were spot welded into the pans in three spots I believe. Any leakage around this insert was stopped by the nylon gasket on the drain plug. The stock drain plugs were a large headed thing....7/8" or 15/16 or so.....

SOOOO if you really want to be proper and correct, you need to rob a pan from your neighbor's garden variety small block Mustang and give him a "brand new NOS" pan......yuck yuck hah hah! Wouldn't be the first time....

The oil pans are also date coded! Some have a part number stamped in them....but that could be just for special pans like Boss 302's etc.

There are some other posts about skid plates....some rather long...... but who knows how many variations of this were made......

Glad to hear you are "almost" out of body shop jail!!!! Smiler

Steve

PS: Note that in the above picture, that the upper frame rail and supports have been changed by a previous owner to accommodate a not stock engine and some REALLY bastardized exhaust manifolds! ...could have built some nice headers.....!
Denis, would love to see pics of your oil pan...Here are pics of the skid plate on '1046, I've seen enough of these (including in the middle of the bare spine chassis of a car in Belgium) to believe that these were made by Detomaso directly...shame on me for not taking measurements or even templates when the car was in my garage...

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Thanx for inputs, will probably ensure frame is straight where it's caved from the bolts, and build up a metal piece that looks like this "[" welding it to top-drvside-bottom of frame

Modded frame accommodates 69 Boss 302 with IDA webers, jackshaft removed, and A/C disconnected. Previous owners have told me this frame mod dates back to 69-70 timeframe.

Steve, you are correct, car has a "frankenmanifold" on pass side and OEM manifold on drv side. Since I'm not in a rush (obviously), have all the equipment necessary to build a set of headers that work there way around that mod'd frame. Once motor is back in car will build the headers inch by inch.
It sounds like the Aviaid Mangusta oil pan is not know to you guys? Perhaps I am wrong.

Here is a link to their page on the pan, and here is a picture of it.

The pan is designed to alleviate the clearance issue. I don't have a 'goose so I can't guaranty anything, just that they do make a pan.

http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/..._oilpns_sbf-ss3.html

I suppose that you may have a perspective of wanting originality BUT if that is your intent, I think you are going to have ALL of the original oversights?

I would speculate that the value of a Mangusta in the future is going to be to a knowledgeable buyer? If that was me, I'd want the oil pan clearance issue solved?

I believe this pan is 1" shallower like what Shelby did with the 289 in the "Cobra Daytonna Coupes"?

It IS NOT a T pan. The illustration of the pan is not correct. Look at the picture of it.

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Mark, Lee,

I revise my statement about the oil drain plug....it was toward the side....!!!

I think you guys have the right pans....!!!

Mark: YOU NEED NEW REAR SPRINGS/SHOCKS YESTERDAY!!! Smiler Smiler Smiler

My bellhousing was ground down so far that the bolt holes had no bottom....the holes were reduced to about a 235 degree hole....the rest is out on the roads of CA somewhere!!!!

Steve
Be carefull with the Aviaad pan.....if it is as deep as the stock pan, you will gain nothing for your $5-600!!! You will just have a nice shiny target for driveways and bridge abutments.

I had Armondo build me a 6"ish deep pan, full length, fully baffled, holds 6 qts. I wouldn't call it a racing pan because of the small capacity....but it IS a confidence builder/pucker factor reducer....as I know I will NOT be scraping this mother!!!! Now, the bellhousing still hanging down there is a different story!!!! Smiler

Steve
quote:
Originally posted by Mangusta:
Mark: YOU NEED NEW REAR SPRINGS/SHOCKS YESTERDAY!!! Smiler Smiler Smiler
Steve


Well yes, but not for that reason. My Mangusta sat so high I could almost drive my GT40 under it. The shocks were fine but I will replace them because I want the car to sit much lower. And, yes, I WILL be fitting a skid plate!
Lee,

Nice job!!! Yes that is the correct drain plug!

I cannot say that I have seen that particular way to set the timing. That pointer in that location...... Seems like there are many different/similar solutions so that console center cover need not be disturbed!!!

Did the balancer get remarked or do you take the timing off of a different cylinder??

Lookin' good!!!

Mark, if that bellhousing is from your car....you need new shocks..or your springs are too soft...or both...no matter what the ride height! (Stock DeCarbon shocks or changed...?)

Scraping the bellhousing is caused by either a SERIOUS crown in the road....or serious ass dragging by the suspension allowing the car to sink too low.....there should be travel limiters installed in the shocks....and the springs and shock damping should reduce the excess movement but for the worst of worse cases....then you are on the limiters in the shock to protect you! Perhaps that is why my bellhousing looked so.....similar!

Cheers!
Steve
Electrical ... in prep for car return, I am going to try to rebuild various parts of the wiring 'system' since I am sure all the wire is in less than perfect condition after 48 years! Have searched the forum but can only find selected photos of parts of the wiring...know the question has been asked before, but has anyone got an original wiring diagram or captured their wiring on paper?

Searching the web, looks like Hall Pantera has a wiring diagram for 20 bucks, has anyone bought it? Is it any good?

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